X3 + P4 3.4G = 386SX speeds WHAT THE FFFFFFFFFFFFFFF !

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SkyJock
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X3 + P4 3.4G = 386SX speeds WHAT THE FFFFFFFFFFFFFFF !

Post by SkyJock » Sat, 26. Nov 05, 08:10

What in the hell?

P4 3.4G
1Gig Corsair XMS Low Latency, Platinum
ATI 9800XT256 Uber clocked
Twin Western Digital 10K RPM Stripped RAID

And X3 runs like a total F'in piece of dog shit. I mean S I C K sick pathetic dog ass make me want to kill somebody slow.

HL2 runs awesome, Q4 awesome. UT awesome. WoW awesome. Guild Wars awesome. Call of Duty, Battlefield 2, Joint Operations, Juiced etc etc etc. ALL of my games run, ranging from great to incredibly fast.

X2 runs great.

X3 runs like GARBAGE. It's unplayable. So I just bought 6 beer coasters for $40 woot what a deal I got yeah... :evil:

The FPS I am seeing is beyond pathetic. It's a slide show. A slow one. I have actually implemented (didn't expect any results, and not disappointed...) the hints on trying to boost performance in the game from the performance thread. SQUAT is the result. This game runs like crap.

Net research seems to indicate Starforce might in fact be a big portion of the problem, however to me it seems the game engine has GOT to be a massive (majority) reason. Either through bad code or design.

What the hell happened? X2 was great. I expected this to be incredible. I was SO looking forward to this as the follow up to X2, which I loved. But instead I wind up with this trash. I am friggin so pissed. There's no reason for this, this is just stupid.

Your patches do squat to actually fix the performance issues at all. If 1.3 patch is more of the same (NOTHING to resolve performance) then I guess you'll get to keep my cash, and the garbage man gets to have my disks.

- Yet another lost consumer.

AdioKIP
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Post by AdioKIP » Mon, 28. Nov 05, 03:15

Just be patient and look up more specific information in the forums. My system specs are simliar to yours. You actually have a better card then i started with since I had a 9800 pro before upgrading this week. Even with the 9800 pro the game was playable for me. Be patient for the patches since the game is truly a work in progress and search the forums for more help. Everyone needs to vent but whining doesn't solve your problem.
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SkyJock
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Patience...

Post by SkyJock » Mon, 28. Nov 05, 05:17

This isn't a matter of whining, but venting... absolutely. A person saying it is 'playable' for them is meaningless if the person accepts 10fps. I don't, and I'm not alone by any stretch. I have a kick ass rig. The game runs like shit. Other games of equal and better visual quality run nice and smooth, in VERY high resolutions. In this case I'm talking just having 1024x768 for christ sake. With a simulation like this, however, with its many dynamic real-time aspects, it is doing a lot more than just presenting stuff on the screen. With that in mind I recognize the additional performance overhead. However, with the horsepower my rig has, there is no justification for the game running like I have a 386 with turbo turned off. The game runs so pathetically slow it is just unbelievable.

I (to my wife’s annoyance) am a serious game freak and regularly purchase games to a degree that is probably near insanity / addiction. I have a gigantic assortment from all genres. My rig is configured for the absolute best possible performance that is "achievable" for the components. As already mentioned, I did attempt some of the specific things mentioned in the forums to try and boost 'this particular' games performance. Nothing makes a dent. That can only lead to one real conclusion. The game is coded badly. No amount of tweaking will ever resolve that or make it faster. Only the engineers working on the code can 'fix' the problem people -huge amount of folks from what I see- are having.

One of the things *I* think they should at least focus on early is a far more sophisticated configuration interface so finite aspects can be individually adjusted / tweaked. For instance, the 9800 series is horrible when it comes to Shadows. Anyone with the series and experience across a broad range of games knows that turning off (or to low) Shadows can have a *dramatic* impact on raw performance. That's just one example. If the game provided a solid, detailed mechanism for individually adjusting a large variety of the graphics that would probably go a long way to allowing people to actually be able to play the game while waiting for the real problems to be fixed. Another would be universe (background overhead) configuration though that will be a lot more difficult depending on how they wrote it in the 1st place. For instance, does the game currently simulate every single real-time occurrence of X, Y, Z happening in every sector regardless of where the player is? If so, unless these are amazingly efficient, the overhead from that would be astronomical. Obviously the only people that know the answer to that are the ones that wrote it.

X2 was a real pleasure. X3 should be, but as it stands right now, it’s just a completely un-playable mess. And though others may mean something less literal, when -*I*- say un-playable, that is exactly what I mean. I can’t play it. It sits dormant on the HDD taking up space for no reason. It’s to slow to fly around a sector with anything inside it. And dogfights? Lol… impossible. The game is currently just a useless waste of space. It will remain on the HDD until 1.3 is released. If it isn’t playable at that time then it will simply be deleted and the disks dumped into the shit-box. Obviously this doesn’t affect the creators since they already have my money. But it does affect any future purchases I would otherwise make that have their name stamped anywhere near it.

pjknibbs
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Re: Patience...

Post by pjknibbs » Mon, 28. Nov 05, 08:05

SkyJock wrote:For instance, the 9800 series is horrible when it comes to Shadows. Anyone with the series and experience across a broad range of games knows that turning off (or to low) Shadows can have a *dramatic* impact on raw performance.
X3 doesn't use real-time shadows, so that isn't likely to be the cause of your slowdowns.

Out of interest, is the performance generally poor, or is it ONLY in extremely busy sectors like Argon Prime?

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Shuntti
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Post by Shuntti » Mon, 28. Nov 05, 10:04

As i see, you have highly overclocked machine. i will add my expirience to here so you might test same things than i did and now i can play 100% and enjoy the game.

My comp specs:
Amd Athlon 64 3500+ s939 2.2ghz Venice @ 235mhz x 11
Abit AN8 nf4 SLI
2 x 512mb Mushkin Redline Xp 4000+ ddr500 2-2-2-5
Hec Windmill superlownoice 385w
Club3D GeForce 7800 Gtx pci-e 256mb
200gb SATA Hdd

As you see, i have quite powerful computer and had similar problems than you do.

First time i tried X3, FPS at argon prime was around 10 and about 20 in everywhere else. And as an game freak, thats not even near playable.
I have invested quite large amount of money to my computer and it is not funny when you notice that something does not run at all on it.
Anyway, i tried very large amount of different overclock settings and tweaks but those did not effect more than few fps.

So i choosed to give a shot how it runs on default mem & core settings (all default exept graphic card, cause clocking 3dcard wont ever drop fps if done correctly). Closed all backround programs, (exept critical system progresses & explorer.exe) and tried the game and i was suprised, resolution 1280 x 1024 and all graphic settings at highest possible, Argon prime FPS 40, overral average 60, now its playable. Dunno why but looks like X3 does not like from overclocked machines.
[ external image ]
| Amd Athlon 64 3500+ s939 2.2ghz Venice @ 235mhz x 11 | Abit AN8 nf4 SLI | 2 x 512mb Mushkin Redline Xp 4000+ ddr500 2-2-2-5
Club3D GeForce 7800 Gtx pci-e 256mb

sychad
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Post by sychad » Mon, 28. Nov 05, 21:18

I had a similar experience. I used to have lots of CTDs and now I'm running everything with normal clock settings and the CTD problems reduced 80%. The frame rate is still very slow. In empty sectors (North Gate in Atreus's Clouds) I get 40 FPS. In busy sectors it drops to around 10. With SETA 10X FPS drops to 5 solid, even of relativery empty sectors.

I have all non essencial bg tasks off and lastest drivers for everything, I 've done the coded thing suggested in other threads and it seemed to help at first with the FPS but now I'm not so sure.
Basically for me overclocking just added to the natural unstability of the code.


Athlon XP 2400+
NVidia 6800
1.2Gb RAM

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kaboom
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Post by kaboom » Tue, 29. Nov 05, 00:41

Shuntti wrote:Dunno why but looks like X3 does not like from overclocked machines.
I think X3 doesn't like FAST machines.

AMD X2 4800+
NVidia 7800 GTX
2GB Corsair XMS
etc.

Nothing is overclocked, I don't overclock as a rule, and I am getting 15-20 fps.

johnstrt
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Post by johnstrt » Tue, 29. Nov 05, 02:01

kaboom wrote:
Shuntti wrote:Dunno why but looks like X3 does not like from overclocked machines.
I think X3 doesn't like FAST machines.

AMD X2 4800+
NVidia 7800 GTX
2GB Corsair XMS
etc.

Nothing is overclocked, I don't overclock as a rule, and I am getting 15-20 fps.
I've got a similar machine (but 4400) and my fps is fine, even with everything turned up. Strange, isn't it?

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kaboom
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Post by kaboom » Tue, 29. Nov 05, 03:15

johnstrt wrote:I've got a similar machine (but 4400) and my fps is fine, even with everything turned up. Strange, isn't it?
Just curious, how many is fine?

SkyJock
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Whew

Post by SkyJock » Tue, 29. Nov 05, 07:25

Woot!

Ok I reviewed a huge number of threads and such across a number of different locations and the general idea that I came away with is there are folks with extremely (or even identical) like-machines where 1 is nice and quick, and the other runs the game like mine did (crap). This points away from X3 code and toward the machines for which performance is crap. With that in mind I started looking a bit deeper and tried a few things.

I used Radlinker for this, specifically to uncover (make adjustable) DirectX settings that are not readily available without a 3rd party utility. In the Radlinker / Options / DirectX tab I set every single option to Default. The performance of X3 was immediately resolved. The game is fast now. I'm not specifically certain which of the option(s) was causing the problem but I'm sure someone with more time on their hands can toggle the entire list to disabled and reenable (or default-state) each one, running the game after each change to see which of the options had the most impact.

As it stands, I can now play the game.

Excellent :D

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kaboom
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Post by kaboom » Tue, 29. Nov 05, 08:12

THAT is exactly the problem. Our computers have minor differences and X3 is designed to run on some ideal rig that does not exist. I know, this argument has been beaten to death, but I can run a wide selection of games without any problems.

I don't know what resetting DirectX to defaults with a third party tool is going to do to my computer, so I am not going to do it, I am not into "reinstall Windows" mood. Egosoft keeps telling us "it's your problem" instead of trying to solve X3 problems or event admitting they exist. That is going nowhere.

lips of a moose
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Post by lips of a moose » Tue, 29. Nov 05, 09:51

kaboom wrote:I think X3 doesn't like FAST machines.

AMD X2 4800+
NVidia 7800 GTX
2GB Corsair XMS
etc.

Nothing is overclocked, I don't overclock as a rule, and I am getting 15-20 fps.
Not so, i'm running the following
4400+ X2
512meg ATI X1800XT
2GB Corsair TwinX

so almost the same rig really, and its running very fast at 1600 x 1200 (every setting on the highest it will go) + runnig a second monitor for the universe map. Fraps is reporting upwards of 60 FPS

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Shuntti
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Post by Shuntti » Tue, 29. Nov 05, 10:39

Yepp, resetting direcX helps, i did not know that it does it in X3 since i resetted those allready when i started to play BF2, i putted everything enabled, it runned well but not as well as on default, i putted all disabled, BOOM fps 2 - 5, spooky.

Kaboom, Putting everything on default with 3rd party program does not mess your machine in anyway possible, they should be default by default but some other program might have changed it to disabled or enabled. Feel free to try it, it is safe, just remember the settings or write them down to somewhere, if it does not work as default, just set them back as they were. 99% safe. does not include overclocking, does not include anything that would take warranty off from your components. But depends from tool you use, some might allow clock speed changes so dont touch that.
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johnstrt
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Post by johnstrt » Tue, 29. Nov 05, 11:28

kaboom wrote:
johnstrt wrote:I've got a similar machine (but 4400) and my fps is fine, even with everything turned up. Strange, isn't it?
Just curious, how many is fine?
Varies a lot, and I haven't frapped it since before the last patch, but rarely below 40-50, and I only get problems in v. big battles/ battles in Ore Belt.

daedalao
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Post by daedalao » Tue, 29. Nov 05, 12:37

That's interesting. In Argon prime I get 20-30fps, but I didn't expect anything more. Hell, I expected less. In an empty system I get anywhere from 40-50.

Machine specs:

AMD Athlon 3000+
1.5 gb generic ram
2 80gb samsung 7200 rpm
Lite-on 16x DVD-ROM (had to buy it as my first drive got eaten by starforce)
nVidia GeForce 5700LE 256mb

By all accounts, I shouldn't be able to do anything, but I am. It's nice :)

sgtbush
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Post by sgtbush » Tue, 29. Nov 05, 13:37

mine is running fine apart from the bugs that have already been reported, i only got a 2.8 pentium 4, asus extreme as600, on board sound 1 gig ram, its the over clocking that messes stuff up so dont do it, its not wise to run something past its design speed

SkyJock
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It is safe bro

Post by SkyJock » Tue, 29. Nov 05, 19:53

kaboom wrote:...I don't know what resetting DirectX to defaults with a third party tool is going to do to my computer, so I am not going to do it, I am not into "reinstall Windows" mood...
I understand your concern however in this case you have nothing to worry about. All it does is simply toggle features of DX. You don't even reboot. It's all real-time and takes effect immediately. It doesn't present a danger of any kind. It will not trash your computer or windows. Again, all it's doing is simply toggling features that are provided by DX between Enabled, Disabled and Default. That's it. That's all it's doing. And in my case, one of the features that had been modified by some program in the past was causing X3 to run like 5-10fps AT-BEST, unless I was staring at true empty space, in which case it was probably 15-20fps. After resetting the DX features to their default state, the game is absolutely screaming fast now regardless what I'm looking at or how many things are in the sector. And this is with AA and AF turned on and HIGH/HIGH quality settings.

I found this myself just by thinking about it after realizing there were simply to many like-machines out there that were seeing very different performance from the game. It had to be something hidden so I started looking at my tools and decided to try resetting DX options with the intention of going at them one at a time later to try and figure out which if any were causing it, but after I reset them all I didn't even need to go back and mess with it any further. The game came alive like I replaced the unleaded with jet fuel. If you are experiencing insanely slow fps I have to suggest you attempt this simple, entirely safe procedure and see if your fps suddenly comes alive like mine did.

Good luck!

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ezra-r
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Post by ezra-r » Tue, 29. Nov 05, 21:43

umm..

ok.. my performance is quite crappy too..

but i use a Geforce 5900Xt..

does that radlinker work for me? (think it is only for ATI).. or should I upgrade my GPU?

SkyJock
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Ati

Post by SkyJock » Wed, 30. Nov 05, 02:27

As far as I know it is specifically for ATI series. However there is probably a tool for nvidia that allows this or a tool that allows it and isn't model specific. The settings in question are as follows:


Alpha Dither Method
Alternate Pixel Center
Colorfill
Compressed Textures
Geometry Instancing
Hierachial Z
Pixel Shader Version
Table Fog
TCL
Vertex Shader Version
W Buffer
W Fog
Z Buffer Depth
Z Fog

I reset all of these to Default state and boom the game came alive. All except Z Buffer Depth, which doesn't have a 'default' state and is currently set to "16,24,32;8 bit stencil"

Good luck!

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kaboom
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Post by kaboom » Wed, 30. Nov 05, 03:27

NVidia doesn't have enable/disable/default settings, but it does have "application contrlled" setting. Would it be "default"? If so, then almost everything is set to default, but I will give it a go.

Anyway, I don't think it's graphics related issue in my case. CPU, GPU and chipset temperatures do not go up no matter how long I play X3, while FEAR cases all my fans to go full blast after 5 minutes. I did an experiment, I started Norton Antivarus scan and ran X3. With exception of slight shadder every so often there were no changes in performance.

I get the highest fps (54) when there is nothing on the screen but black starry sky. Now, there are almost no 3D effects at all and I have 7800GTX. What X3 is doing? A mistery.

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