The X2 economy is broken -please read-

[pacific_wing]

Before reading this, turn to page 33 of your manual to the economy pyramid. You will notice a visual description of a working economy. Low-level raw production resources are at the bottom, providing the economy with the materials needed for everything produced in the economy. Mid-Level products (refined resources) exist as a result of the effort to convert raw resources into usable resources. Finally, at the top of the pyramid, you have high-level resources, which consist of manufactured goods and finished products. This is a balanced economy on paper, where the top tier is the most profitable but also creates a demand for lower-level resources.

Unfortunately, the X2 economy does not operate in the way this pyramid indicates, as many of us have discovered. Having done the math (on another thread, listed below), we have discovered that in ideal circumstances the Solar Power Plant (a low-level "raw" resource) is the most profitable plant in the game. It is capable of producing a larger total value of resources faster than any other factory. I submit that this is an indication of a much larger problem.

Unfortunately, circumstances are not always ideal. If the demand for energy is too great (as it should be, since nearly everything requires it), then more SPP's are going to get produced by opportunists. As this happens, the demand for energy decreases and eventually the market will saturate. While this is natural behavior for any economy (and accurately reflected in the game), it presents an interesting problem. The aforementioned opportunists are forced to develop medium and high-level factories to create demand.

This is where the game is broken.

While the medium and high-level factories do successfully create demand for energy, they seem to serve no other purpose. As indicated by having calculated the production rate of most plants, building high-end factories is simply not profitable. The cost of maintenance and construction outweighs the production value. If you don't believe me, see the URL below for very detailed formulas on the subject.

So now we have medium and high-level factories that exist for the sole purpose of providing demand for low-level factories. They become a "foundation industry", because they exist solely to support another industry. So the pyramid on page 33 is actually flipped upside-down, with the high-level industries supporting the low-level (raw resource) industries.

Aim of this post:

I (along with several others) am willing to defend my position on the fact that this problem exists (and is a problem). Instead I would like to focus on a solution. Although no one can agree totally on what the solution should be (I have some ideas), I would like this thread to be used to discuss it.

I also recommend reading through this URL, which contains some very good insights, before you add your voice to the fray. Please be aware that mild spoilers exist in this thread.

http://www.egosoft.com/x2/forum/viewtopic.php?t=18830

Thank you for reading,
-PW

[Acidic]

Although I have seen the same thing said a few times I agree with everything stated. The pyramid is upside down and the economy is in a state which detracts from realism.

With any luck the devs at Egosoft will take notice and this wil get fixed. I won't mind re-structuring my empire as long as the changes are publicly announced.

[Darshu]

Well, probably the main problem with the economy is not so much the period, but the profit margins.

The economy DOES work the way the economy pyramid indicates. There's a large amount of bottom resources feeding the top level fabs. The top level fabs need many resources to produce finished products.

The problem as I see it is that e-cells generate too much profit when produced en masse, while the high level commodities, while producing profit, are no where near where they should be in relation to e-cells, nor the headache in keeping them running.

The solution is multi-fold.

First, less concern for "newbie" traders. If all you want to trade in is e-cells in your banged up Merc, then of course you're going to make piddling profits. The REAL money should be up high. So what you do is make the cost of e-cells around 5 - 8 credits minimum, and 9 - 11 credits maximum. This allows starting traders to garner a small profit until they get the cahones to move up, to say Silicon and such.

Then just make each "tier" above raw resources doubly profitable of the one below it. Or even exponentially more profitable. Setting up a Gamma PPC Forge should be something only the wealthiest can afford to do, and the profits to be reaped should be high as well. Imagine including exclusive Argon Government contracts in weapons production and so forth.

I still think the easiest fix is to make E-cells much less profitable, but CHEAP. That way someone who's trade empire gets destroyed by Khaak can always rebuild from scratch if need be.

[bobioman]

I somewhat agree with darshu, while what he says would definitially work, It would be more of a quick fix....it would be easily implemented....just change the min and max values for all the resources, and there aren't really THAT many reasources. I would be fine with this fix, it would make the game much more enjoyable to me, but lots of people on this forum don't wan't just a fun game, they want a realistic game, and while changing the price caps would make the game more enjoyable some people would be angered that the prices of thier e-cell's would be even more limited.

I think it is a good proposal, and that the dev's should implement it in the patch, i really can't see how it would be that difficult to change, and almost everyone has a problem with the economy as is, so they need to do something soon, and if anyone doesn't like the new economy they could just not get the patch. personally I stopped playing the game a while back, the economy problem was too much of a game ruiner for me, i'm waiting till they fix it to start playing again.

Anyone else agree with me and darshu about this fix being a good one? or does anyone have a reason why it would not work?

[Donar]

My concern is a matter of consumption.

What I'm getting at is does the game allow for the other residents of the game world to use the high level product. Does the computer buy the Gamma PPCs or Beta HEPTs from factories and equipment docks? When they build their ships to replace the ones killed buy Khaak or Xenon, do they get their equipment from the same economy we do?

If they do not do so, it's left to you to free up space at the docks and factories for the economy to keep going at the highest levels.

While I don't pretend to have done any in depth analysis, I've glutted the local market in my game with 1MW shields. The computer buyers are the nearby equipment docks and when they are full, what then? Can I expect the game to use these shields or, for that matter, any other mid to high-end product I produce? Or is it the player's responsibility to create demand through consumption solely?

A little daunting to say the least if this is true. Yes I'm making money, buying ships and outfitting them but I'm not sure I can use all of the high-end product to keep the game economy going at it's upper tiers.

I guess Im looking for a bit of reassurance from those that have done a bit more digging than the one example I've outlined. I hope my experience is just one of poor 1MW Shield Factory placement.

[VVNZ]

I agree with Darshu but would like to add that linked to the profit and productivity of these factoies is the initial purchase cost, it's practically common "game" sense that the higher the initial outlay the better the long term rewards. An example being I had 2 SPP's and 1 Delexian Wheat Farm, the wheat farm was nicely profitable (I'd more than double what I was outlaying in E cells) but was so damn slow to produce it'd have taken forever to pay itself off, in fact the 2 SPP's together were cheaper than the initial cost of buying the wheat farm and the wheat farm was generating credits at a much lower rate.

I also like the idea of getting military contracts too, it could be like the BBS missions, make us X number of 25MW sheilds by last wednesday.

[Darshu]

Yeah that's one thing my solution doesn't take into account.

The whole NPC market uses e-cells for sure, but when helping the local Argon military "test" their pilots resolve and moxie (i.e. me capturing them) does the replacement Novas get all the equipment by default, or is it taken from the existing stocks in the game economy?

That's probably a question only the devs can answer, and if its what I think it is (i.e. no, all NPC ships just get a basic loadout) then the upper tier economy will be screwed no matter what.

Damn.

[pjknibbs]

What I'm getting at is does the game allow for the other residents of the game world to use the high level product. Does the computer buy the Gamma PPCs or Beta HEPTs from factories and equipment docks? When they build their ships to replace the ones killed buy Khaak or Xenon, do they get their equipment from the same economy we do?

Trading stations and equipment docks act as "sinks" for all the goods in the X universe--they gradually use them over time even if no-one visits.

Certainly if the races relied on factories to produce their hardware they'd be in deep trouble--if the "signal.killed" script count in my game is anything to go by there have been more than NINETY THOUSAND ships lost in the 6 days or so I've been playing, and there's no way you could replace an attrition like that out of the existing factories in the universe.

[Drastic]

My suspicion is that the high-end-goods sink-points (the trading posts and equipment docks) should probably be tweaked to eat up goods a bit faster, with the maximum-item caps increased.

For instance, at some point I bought a mass driver. After use, I decided it just plain wasn't worth the hassle until I had an empire-chain built up to produce a personal supply of ammo--and that's going to be a ways in the future. In the meantime, it was wasting seconds to cycle through the deadweight cannon every time I swapped my ion cannons for hepts. But it took days of game time till I finally stumbled across an equipment dock that actually had free "slots" to sell it back to; almost every supplying station already had the max two of them, and thus couldn't buy them.

[3iff]

Actually, the sinks are double edged, with sods law reigning.

If you want to BUY items, they're never in stock.
If you want to SELL items, the station doesn't want any.

However, I agree with the view here that high end factories are not worth the effort unless you want the produce yourself. I find myself building low level factories because they have less product requirements (mainly energy or energy+one other) and need less ships to manage the station.

It is nonsensical that you might pay 3million+ for a factory that can earn less than one SPP that costs one tenth of the amount.

[Invisible Hand]

The economy in X2 is certainly not perfect, but it gives the players enough opportunity to make money. And even though the basic resources, e.g. the Solar Power Plants, have high profit margins in percentage, their margins in terms of actual credits are quite low. This is true for most of the basic resources. One exception to this rule is silicon. They can provide huge profits.

As in the example of energy cells, production costs of each cell is about 12 cr (if crystals were purchased for 1684 cr). Maximum energy price is 23 cr, so that profit is only 11 cr per unit, but profit in percentage is over 90%. Hence, SPPs are good to start off the player's empire.

And the reason why SPPs seem to generate revenue so fast is that they have a short production cycle, so that energy cells can be sold readily. This high turnover of inventory quickly brings in credits. But remember, SPPs also use up their crystals very fast! The light intensity in a sector also influences the cycle time of energy cells, I believe.

In contrast to SPPs, most higher level productions facilities have higher profit margins in terms of actual credits, despite their lower percentage profit margins. They also tie up capital due to their long production cycles. But when you have the patience, they will generate a nice profit after a while.

During my trading runs I also observed that trading stations really serve as the final consumers of products. The goods in those stations slowly get used up and disappear, creating demand for more. And here is where the X economy stops. How can a trading station buy commodities, such as crystals for more than 1800 cr and sell them for 1684 cr, without gping bankrupt? - Egosoft subsidises, of course.

[untouchable]

1. Place high-tech (HTF) factory which is producing goods that near tradeposts would buy and sell and ALL needed support factories (SPF) in sector that has no NPC's same factories (for example Drone factory in sector THE WALL)
2. Buy energy at max 12CR from NPC (for example The WALL has plenty of energy)
3. Set max jumps for all factories to 0 (force them to buy in that sector)
4. Set HTF to sell at max price (NPC's tradeports will buy) and buy at max price (force HTF to buy at yours SPFs in that sector except energy)
5. Set SPFs to sell at at max price and buy at max price except energy (force HTF to buy at yours SPFs and other SPFs to buy at your SPFs)
6. Assign only buying freigters (you do not need selling ships because NPC will buy from your HTF which buyers will buy from yours SPFs which buyers will buy from needed SPFs (yours of course) ALL AT MAX PRICE EXCEPT ENERGY

This way every factory in chain makes profit because if you sell end products (of all yours factories, not just HTF) at max price, you can buy primary resources at max price and still you get profit from every part of the chain!

Point is that one HTF makes (smaller?) profit, but 2-5 needed SPFs makes profit all the time just because of one HTF! Without owned SPP's...Plus no more loosing frighters in other sectors, because jumps are set to 0 - all you need is corvette in particular sector!

BTW before you will start to calculate your math equations and try to slam me down...just try to set a chain like this and then post your comments.

Best regards!

[pacific_wing]

1. Place high-tech (HTF) factory which is producing goods that near tradeposts would buy and sell and ALL needed support factories (SPF) in sector that has no NPC's same factories (for example Drone factory in sector THE WALL)
2. Buy energy at max 12CR from NPC (for example The WALL has plenty of energy)
3. Set max jumps for all factories to 0 (force them to buy in that sector)
4. Set HTF to sell at max price (NPC's tradeports will buy) and buy at max price (force HTF to buy at yours SPFs in that sector except energy)
5. Set SPFs to sell at at max price and buy at max price except energy (force HTF to buy at yours SPFs and other SPFs to buy at your SPFs)
6. Assign only buying freigters (you do not need selling ships because NPC will buy from your HTF which buyers will buy from yours SPFs which buyers will buy from needed SPFs (yours of course) ALL AT MAX PRICE EXCEPT ENERGY

This way every factory in chain makes profit because if you sell end products (of all yours factories, not just HTF) at max price, you can buy primary resources at max price and still you get profit from every part of the chain!

Point is that one HTF makes (smaller?) profit, but 2-5 needed SPFs makes profit all the time just because of one HTF! Without owned SPP's...Plus no more loosing frighters in other sectors, because jumps are set to 0 - all you need is corvette in particular sector!

BTW before you will start to calculate your math equations and try to slam me down...just try to set a chain like this and then post your comments.

Best regards!

I touched on this a bit in my orgininal post. The problem with this is that you are using high level factories as a catalyst for your energy market, not for profit; which is what they should be used for.

And in regards to my math equations, they aren't mine. All that stuff gives me a headache. I jsut work off other peoples equations (and I can understand the logic). The problem is that the game often gives the illusion of making more money than you actually are. I know this sounds silly, but try this:

If you haven't already, try setting up a wheat farm in the wall. This is a scenario that people have claimed to make large amounts of money in a short period of time. Do everything you can to babysit this wheat farm, and make it as profitable as you can. When its up and running, actually do the math. Calculate the resources being produced against the cost of the resources needed and the time it takes to produce them. You will find that you are only making about 15-17K per hour.

Now at this rate, calculate how long it will take to actually make your money back.

Tell me you see something wrong with this.

-PW

[pacific_wing]

Well, probably the main problem with the economy is not so much the period, but the profit margins.

The economy DOES work the way the economy pyramid indicates. There's a large amount of bottom resources feeding the top level fabs. The top level fabs need many resources to produce finished products.

The problem as I see it is that e-cells generate too much profit when produced en masse, while the high level commodities, while producing profit, are no where near where they should be in relation to e-cells, nor the headache in keeping them running.

The solution is multi-fold.

First, less concern for "newbie" traders. If all you want to trade in is e-cells in your banged up Merc, then of course you're going to make piddling profits. The REAL money should be up high. So what you do is make the cost of e-cells around 5 - 8 credits minimum, and 9 - 11 credits maximum. This allows starting traders to garner a small profit until they get the cahones to move up, to say Silicon and such.

Then just make each "tier" above raw resources doubly profitable of the one below it. Or even exponentially more profitable. Setting up a Gamma PPC Forge should be something only the wealthiest can afford to do, and the profits to be reaped should be high as well. Imagine including exclusive Argon Government contracts in weapons production and so forth.

I still think the easiest fix is to make E-cells much less profitable, but CHEAP. That way someone who's trade empire gets destroyed by Khaak can always rebuild from scratch if need be.

This is some good insight.

I however, don't think SPP's are too profitable. As a commodity that is needed by everyone and everything, it should be a high priced market of a low priced resource. This is the way it works in the real world, and its the way it should in the game.

I think, in fact, high level factorys like gun fabs and sattalite fabs should be a helluva lot more profitable.

High-level resources (finished products and manufactured goods) are always the most profitable. The other resources are made profitable by the process.

This is not reflected in the game, and should be.

Cheers,
-PW

[Nemesi$]

Sorry for crosspost, but it fits better in here.

Some little math on how profitable higher-tech factories are:

Our WheatFarm needs 15 Energy to make 10 Delexian Wheat. When we sell all the Wheat for it's max price we get 460 Cr. each cycle.

So 460 Credits divided by the 15 Energy cells used makes 30.667
And thats the price you'll get for one(!) Energycell afters it's gone thru a WheatFarm. Now try to get that Profit with a SPP.

Second example:
A full working SPP can support up to 10 Factories with Power. Just for this case we'll have 10 WheatFarms supported by the one SPP. If the Farms buy the Energy for 11 they do a profit of 17700 Credits/h each. Alltogether it's 177000 Creds/h.

A single SPP only has a profit of 123780 Creds/h if you sell the cells for their max price of 23.

And the more cycles one energycell had gone thru the more profit you get.

[Mad Hatter]

But thats a purely theoretical way of looking at it.

The fact is, there is not enough demand to sell off the stock of 10 closely grouped wheat farms - all at max price.

And if you space them out, you lose production to transit time.

So while it may hold up on your calculator - it will not hold up in game.

And... if you are using all of your solar power to supply your own farms, then you are using 11 factories (not counting crystal supply) to make proportionally small increase in profit over the first SPP.

And then there's the startup cost for 10 wheat farms and transports..... Ridiculous ROI cycle on that....

And if you had spent that money on more SPPs with support fabs - you would have made far more profit on the E cells (which have a real demand to fill).

The problem is not that high level factories are not profitable. The problem is that investment dollar for investment dollar - you would always have made higher revenues if you had spent that money on more SPPs and support fabs.

[Iron Giant]

Could someone please explain to me where this discussion is going to lead?

I dont understand why people are so gripped by the economy in X2, when there is nothing to buy and no reason to have the kind of money that these economy tweaks will provide.

Once you have a few SPP's, you'll never want for money again, so who cares if the higher end factorys aren't as profitable?

What is there to DO with the kind of cash that you all are working for???

[Burianek]

Could someone please explain to me where this discussion is going to lead?

I dont understand why people are so gripped by the economy in X2, when there is nothing to buy and no reason to have the kind of money that these economy tweaks will provide.

Actually a reasonable point. Its my hope that user generated content, and later egosoft produced follow ons will give more to do.
IIRC I've already run across scripts that will start invasions, and we're just getting started here. This game provides a phenomenal framework that can be built upon. I'm hoping one day to be defending my sectors and creating bottlenecks to invasion as you allude to in another post. This game could be a rts given enough scripting. I don't know, maybe I'm dreaming.

At any rate, as one of the gung ho economy fixers, I do have some ideas and thoughts that are mainly implementations of points others are making. I am also finishing a spreadsheet which clearly depicts the current state of the economy and allows for tinkering. (i.e. a complete factory list that can be customized relatively easily) Hopefully this will spawn some others thinking and my tools will be useful to them. Eventually I am also hoping the economy will be fully moddable so these ideas can be implemented.

I'll try to finish these up and post as soon as practicable, but i'll need a host to put the spreadsheet on.

[Burianek]

By the way, I'm currently standing in a trading pit on the floor of the Chicago Board of Options Exchange. I dunno, for some reason I've just always liked buying low and selling high. I have to try to fix it, I can't help myself.

[nobbystyles]

I would say that the best way to curb an SPP would be to halve the crystals used and the Cells produced per cycle. you will still get a profit. but instead of making the 50k per hour they currently make. you will be making 20k-25k which makes it a fairly good low end factory. It would also make less of a hassle getting crystals

Wheatfarms are more of a long term investment if you plan on getting a factory that requires wheat. so you could get it early and make a bit of money with it. but sice it only makes 17k per hour its not gonna rock your world.

The economy is also a bit stodgy. mostly 1 factory will supply exactly enough for the factory higher up. no variation in product cycles or this wheat plague thats going around. okay it would be a real kick in the stomach if all your wheat farms suddenly came down with plague and produced only half of what they should. and you had to orgaise buying elsewhere but it would add a bit of variation.