I liked the balance in X3R. It really felt like you earned the right to buy new ship types. I realise for the more casual player things were probably too slow, but TC seems to have gone way too far in the other direction - I'm up to Argon Federation Marshall already yet I've done next to nothing (roughly half a dozen station protect missions and 3M worth of goods and ships bought)
Combat ranks also seem way too fast.
The possible problem with this is so much of the game is tied to your ranks. At the moment you're getting to end game weaponry (and the necessity of having it) without having much time to pause and enjoy the stops along the way.
What do you think?
X3TC: Ranking too easy?
Moderator: Moderators for English X Forum
I think it is much better now.
I remember flying round for hours and hours in X3R looking for pirates/zenon in boron sectors so I could buy something or other....Nothing.
.....gave up playing for a while because of it
Now there are much more opportunities for gaining rank and riches and I for one approve.
/steps off soapbox
I remember flying round for hours and hours in X3R looking for pirates/zenon in boron sectors so I could buy something or other....Nothing.
.....gave up playing for a while because of itNow there are much more opportunities for gaining rank and riches and I for one approve.
/steps off soapbox
I will grow up one day....
One day
One day
-
phoenix-it
- Posts: 583
- Joined: Tue, 27. Mar 07, 20:27
Rapid notoriety increase happens now with any time of mission you do, not just combat.
Combat rank is climbing too fast because those missions are possibly bugged and spawning way too many enemies. In X3R, I couldn't find that many outside of a Xenon/Kha'ak sector, and they were much more dangerous because they had capitol ships and employed real tactics. i.e. Corvettes are a skeet shoot in TC combat missions, the fighters make no effort to protect them.
As far as your notoriety climbing too quickly...
Let's not kid ourselves, all you had to do was fly from station to station in X3R looking for a BBS DONATION, give em 10,000,000 credits and they were ready to sell you the throne of the empire. You did not have to build notoriety that slowly...
Now, in TC, you're actually doing things for them and getting rewarded. So what if you do 10 things and they're ready to sell you a destroyer? Look at the amount of military hardware governments are swinging now! Just because you can buy a destroyer doesn't mean you can instantly exterminate their empire; they have a lot of ships and even if you manage to down one sector you had better get out before the 2 backup carriers from right next door. (They also JUMP IN backup, if you haven't noticed.)
So, I don't think it's a big deal... no.
Combat rank is climbing too fast because those missions are possibly bugged and spawning way too many enemies. In X3R, I couldn't find that many outside of a Xenon/Kha'ak sector, and they were much more dangerous because they had capitol ships and employed real tactics. i.e. Corvettes are a skeet shoot in TC combat missions, the fighters make no effort to protect them.
As far as your notoriety climbing too quickly...
Let's not kid ourselves, all you had to do was fly from station to station in X3R looking for a BBS DONATION, give em 10,000,000 credits and they were ready to sell you the throne of the empire. You did not have to build notoriety that slowly...
Now, in TC, you're actually doing things for them and getting rewarded. So what if you do 10 things and they're ready to sell you a destroyer? Look at the amount of military hardware governments are swinging now! Just because you can buy a destroyer doesn't mean you can instantly exterminate their empire; they have a lot of ships and even if you manage to down one sector you had better get out before the 2 backup carriers from right next door. (They also JUMP IN backup, if you haven't noticed.)
So, I don't think it's a big deal... no.
Last edited by phoenix-it on Mon, 3. Nov 08, 20:08, edited 1 time in total.
Well, I haven't played X3:TC yet (Christmas 
) but from what I've heard it does sound too fast.
however, The biggest things I flew in X3:R were an Elephant and Centaur. And I played a for a very long time -true, not focusing on ranks in particular, but even so, Capships were impossible to get.
So a re-adjustment would be awesome: easier than X3, but definitely harder than it is now (based on what I've heard).
) but from what I've heard it does sound too fast.however, The biggest things I flew in X3:R were an Elephant and Centaur. And I played a for a very long time -true, not focusing on ranks in particular, but even so, Capships were impossible to get.
So a re-adjustment would be awesome: easier than X3, but definitely harder than it is now (based on what I've heard).
Station protect are working OK, I think, at least as far as numbers spawned (which is why I've been doing them and not the patrol ones).phoenix-it wrote:Rapid notoriety increase happens now with any time of mission you do, not just combat.
Combat rank is climbing too fast because those missions are possibly bugged and spawning way too many enemies.
IIRC that wasn't in the original game but was added later, and it was a very good addition IMO. I think it gave the best of both worlds, effectively letting you play at whatever pace you desired. TC makes me feel rushed. The paint on my Nova Raider has barely dried and already a larger ship feels necessary (to keep kill times sane as much as for survivability)
As far as your notoriety climbing too quickly...
Let's not kid ourselves, all you had to do was fly from station to station in X3R looking for a BBS DONATION, give em 10,000,000 credits and they were ready to sell you the throne of the empire. You did not have to build notoriety that slowly...
-
simonnance
- Posts: 6788
- Joined: Fri, 12. Mar 04, 23:39
With the prevalence of insta-hit weapons on AI enemies, the need for bigger ships is much more urgent as you start piling up the combat ranks, which happens fast.
Even in my Eclipse, i have to try VERY hard to nail an assassination mission anymore, as 2 M6s, 4-5 M3s, and 5+ M4/5s is a tough nut to crack when the latter ones have PACs or PBEs. You either need to string them out and take the smaller ships first, or use a load of missiles to thin the numbers down.
It's nice to be realisticaly hard like that, but its for the wrong reasons, i want the AI to make killing them hard, not them to use insta-hit weaps to mean that TBH i might as well not even TRY dodging unless you are going toe to toe with a M6 with HEPTS. That 5-10 M5s is HARDER to deal with than 2 M6s in a HEAVY FIGHTER is rather stretching things somewhat.
Even in my Eclipse, i have to try VERY hard to nail an assassination mission anymore, as 2 M6s, 4-5 M3s, and 5+ M4/5s is a tough nut to crack when the latter ones have PACs or PBEs. You either need to string them out and take the smaller ships first, or use a load of missiles to thin the numbers down.
It's nice to be realisticaly hard like that, but its for the wrong reasons, i want the AI to make killing them hard, not them to use insta-hit weaps to mean that TBH i might as well not even TRY dodging unless you are going toe to toe with a M6 with HEPTS. That 5-10 M5s is HARDER to deal with than 2 M6s in a HEAVY FIGHTER is rather stretching things somewhat.
want the FACTS about X2/X3?
Usenko wrote:Don't get me wrong, I think animals have their place in the scheme of things. It's just that in the case of sheep, cattle and pigs, their place happens to be in neat pieces under the griller.
I think race notoriety is okay, if a little fast, but combat and trade rankings are way too fast. On the Terran Defender start, I was Fighter Chief before I even got out of the Sol System and into the Commonwealth. Combat rank has the possibility to outpace the player's ability to generate credits and you find yourself doing a station defense against 3 M6s and god knows how many M5/4/3s while the player is flying an M4.
Argon Hero of the Federation and Boron Kings Knight I'm at already and not far off all the other race ones too.
Progression is way too fast.
When I can go from Assassin to Warlord in one mission and from Crusader to Legend in another 2 or 3, something's not right.
Newbies are getting hammered because the pace of advancement is so relentless and they're out of their depth struggling to learn to fly an M2 and find the equipment for it before game day 1 is half over.
Progression is way too fast.
When I can go from Assassin to Warlord in one mission and from Crusader to Legend in another 2 or 3, something's not right.
Newbies are getting hammered because the pace of advancement is so relentless and they're out of their depth struggling to learn to fly an M2 and find the equipment for it before game day 1 is half over.
for the experienced player, high race ranking is easy to obtain (but it was in X3R as well)... but i know a friend who has just been introduced to the X series for the first time, and he was struggling for days (and still is)...
Unless egosoft at some time introduce a difficulty level system that can account for the players experience, we should just live with it and enjoy the ease for the sake of newbies
Unless egosoft at some time introduce a difficulty level system that can account for the players experience, we should just live with it and enjoy the ease for the sake of newbies
-
The Great Destroyer
- Posts: 176
- Joined: Tue, 30. Sep 08, 21:32
I completely agree,Terran conflict definitely got the mission subtance right but also messed with things that worked in the past 2 games.Notoriety should not advance so quickly.I gained the top Terran notoriety in under 3-4 hours while in Reunion that would have take about 3 full weeks or more of gameplay at least.The level of progression is definitely not to my liking when it comes to enemy encounters,notoriety & mission rewards.
If upcoming patches solve the usual mission problems coupled with
1.Lessening enemy encounters during missions by about 25% should do.
2.Race notoriety progress should be lessened substantially to pre-Terran conflict levels.
3.Mission rewards should be halved.
4.Race retaliations should not be so frequent in enemy territories,amongst the races themselves are fine though.The reason being is when the player finally gets capital ships there aren't any others to test them on except in missions.I definitely prefer random encounters thank you.
5.Remove the restrictions at Earth Torus if you have the rank to be there.I currently have ATF command access yet everytime my ships are there to be outfitted they are being destroyed OOS when they undock from the station.
If upcoming patches solve the usual mission problems coupled with
1.Lessening enemy encounters during missions by about 25% should do.
2.Race notoriety progress should be lessened substantially to pre-Terran conflict levels.
3.Mission rewards should be halved.
4.Race retaliations should not be so frequent in enemy territories,amongst the races themselves are fine though.The reason being is when the player finally gets capital ships there aren't any others to test them on except in missions.I definitely prefer random encounters thank you.
5.Remove the restrictions at Earth Torus if you have the rank to be there.I currently have ATF command access yet everytime my ships are there to be outfitted they are being destroyed OOS when they undock from the station.
this is what is needed, the main problem with TC is the availability of missions (not theyre payout or rank increase), players are taking on more misssions than ever before and so their rank is increasing at a higher rate than they have ever known, so it seems easy to experienced players, but new players are still finding it slow progress and difficultEandir wrote:Is it just me or does mission payout, notoriety gain rate, mission difficulty variance, etc, all need to be tied to a difficulty slider. Where are you XTREME?
I agree, there are definitely some balancing issues. I have always played the game in an M3 because I enjoy dogfighting and anything bigger than this you just can't dogfight in. But after very few missions I couldn't cope with the enemies I was spawning on patrol missions while flying my M3. And I don't mean the bigger ships, I can take out a Q in my Mamba Vanguard but 4-5 M and Ns kill me in a few seconds.
I made the mistake of getting in the Vidor, but after a few missions and some very swift promotions playing in my M3 is now no longer an option except in defend the station missions. and thats only because the AI is very stupid and stands by while you pick them off 1 by 1.
Lol, saying that I've got to admit I'm having a blast and am being forced to do things other ways..looks like I'm going to have to use missiles and have wingmen blahh....but I would have liked to stay in my M3 longer, didn't get long enough to decide my favorite and now I feel they are obsolete.
I made the mistake of getting in the Vidor, but after a few missions and some very swift promotions playing in my M3 is now no longer an option except in defend the station missions. and thats only because the AI is very stupid and stands by while you pick them off 1 by 1.
Lol, saying that I've got to admit I'm having a blast and am being forced to do things other ways..looks like I'm going to have to use missiles and have wingmen blahh....but I would have liked to stay in my M3 longer, didn't get long enough to decide my favorite and now I feel they are obsolete.
RAHHH!, when do we get an online X Universe.
mission
Actually I am in two minds about this.
On the one hand the availability of missions is very nice as there is always something to do.
On the other hand, taking a mission in (say) a single M3 and finding yourself up against a huge fleet is a tad daunting.
Thing is though, if you knew what the odds were going to be before hand (even if only roughly) then you wouldn't just bring the M3 would you?
And that would be quite realistic, as opposed to those here who complain about being unable to turn the tide of a Xenon invasion in their trusty Mamba
In that respect I like TC. I am a crap pilot, running the game on a P4 (ha!) and yet still enjoying it precisely because it is a challenge.
Hats off to Ego. They have just added the 'Think' part to the 'Fight' part!
I think the same can be said of the 'Trade' part too. X-verse too dangerous? Market not got any lucrative holes? Well get out there and do something about it!
Note: all those who complain about not being able to rule the X-verse in a single M3/4/5 whatever should search the X3R forum pages for similar arguments on how ridiculous it was for a player to take on an M1/2 in an M3/4/5 whatever.
Still, there's no pleasing some people.
Slight rant there, intermixed with a fair amount a rambling
(and of course all just IMHO)
Icky
On the one hand the availability of missions is very nice as there is always something to do.
On the other hand, taking a mission in (say) a single M3 and finding yourself up against a huge fleet is a tad daunting.
Thing is though, if you knew what the odds were going to be before hand (even if only roughly) then you wouldn't just bring the M3 would you?
And that would be quite realistic, as opposed to those here who complain about being unable to turn the tide of a Xenon invasion in their trusty Mamba
In that respect I like TC. I am a crap pilot, running the game on a P4 (ha!) and yet still enjoying it precisely because it is a challenge.
Hats off to Ego. They have just added the 'Think' part to the 'Fight' part!
I think the same can be said of the 'Trade' part too. X-verse too dangerous? Market not got any lucrative holes? Well get out there and do something about it!
Note: all those who complain about not being able to rule the X-verse in a single M3/4/5 whatever should search the X3R forum pages for similar arguments on how ridiculous it was for a player to take on an M1/2 in an M3/4/5 whatever.
Still, there's no pleasing some people.
Slight rant there, intermixed with a fair amount a rambling
(and of course all just IMHO)
Icky
Good post Icarus, I'm inclined to agree.
If there was one major issue with X3R that I think most people agreed with it was that, given the work needed to get a 'big ship', they were actually pretty pointless apart from Xenon farming. M6's had next to no use at all as a player ship.
In particular, I personally found it somewhat irritating how pathetically easy Xenon Invasion missions were. The rewards may be very large now, but at least you have to work for them...XI's in X3R got extremely boring after a while, IMO.
So now we have a game balance in such a way that the M6/M7 class seems about the optimum player ship to take on the majority of combat missions, well, what's the problem?
XTM was an improvement in many ways, but for me one of the biggest was simply putting those mid-sized combat ships into the kind of dominant position in player hands that they should have been in the first place.
After all, what self respecting space tycoon would choose to fly around in anything other than a major ship with accompanying fleet?
On the flip side, it also makes dogfighting in a lone M3, should you choose to do it, a hair raising experience which forces you to know yourself and your enemy far better than in the old days. Took me several goes to get past that Terran Patrol mission, but with a little cunning and a repair laser I managed it, and that's in a Mamba. I think in the new, eviller Mamba Raider (assuming it still has a turret) I may have found it even easier.
No, for me the combat and missions are bang on. I'm far more annoyed by the little things that haven't been fixed (like taking on a 'station protect' mission, and two stray shots causing the station to go red...why couldn't they just program it to go blue again once you've completed the mission?), and the lack of bonus pack scripts in from the start (there is no way I'm doing any station building until I can get CAGs to service them, especially in a universe this dangerous).
Naaah. I'd say the same in terms of the weapons threads as well...I want the AI to bite back, makes it all the more satisfying when I crush them!
If there was one major issue with X3R that I think most people agreed with it was that, given the work needed to get a 'big ship', they were actually pretty pointless apart from Xenon farming. M6's had next to no use at all as a player ship.
In particular, I personally found it somewhat irritating how pathetically easy Xenon Invasion missions were. The rewards may be very large now, but at least you have to work for them...XI's in X3R got extremely boring after a while, IMO.
So now we have a game balance in such a way that the M6/M7 class seems about the optimum player ship to take on the majority of combat missions, well, what's the problem?
XTM was an improvement in many ways, but for me one of the biggest was simply putting those mid-sized combat ships into the kind of dominant position in player hands that they should have been in the first place.
After all, what self respecting space tycoon would choose to fly around in anything other than a major ship with accompanying fleet?
On the flip side, it also makes dogfighting in a lone M3, should you choose to do it, a hair raising experience which forces you to know yourself and your enemy far better than in the old days. Took me several goes to get past that Terran Patrol mission, but with a little cunning and a repair laser I managed it, and that's in a Mamba. I think in the new, eviller Mamba Raider (assuming it still has a turret) I may have found it even easier.
No, for me the combat and missions are bang on. I'm far more annoyed by the little things that haven't been fixed (like taking on a 'station protect' mission, and two stray shots causing the station to go red...why couldn't they just program it to go blue again once you've completed the mission?), and the lack of bonus pack scripts in from the start (there is no way I'm doing any station building until I can get CAGs to service them, especially in a universe this dangerous).
Naaah. I'd say the same in terms of the weapons threads as well...I want the AI to bite back, makes it all the more satisfying when I crush them!
I think, as someone mention, the race notoriety raising fast is due to the fact that missions are much easier to obtain.
Think back to X3:R and flying around from station to station trying to find a mission on the BBS. I've gone for 30 minutes at a time without any success. Now you get missions showing up in your view, and you don't even need to dock at the station, get within 25k and just comm the station to get the mission.
I've probably been able to do more mission in 30 minutes in X3:TC then I was on a full day of playing X3:R.
More missions = faster notoriety.
And the fact that you go up the ranks fast probably has something to do with the fact that each mission spawns so many enemies for you that it's just skyrockets after each mission.
I think if the mission spawns were scaled down, then we'd be a bit back to what it should be with Ranking.
As for economic ranking, I don't really see it going up that fast, but then I only have 2 UTs (that spend most of their time in standby anyhow) and 2 factories.
Think back to X3:R and flying around from station to station trying to find a mission on the BBS. I've gone for 30 minutes at a time without any success. Now you get missions showing up in your view, and you don't even need to dock at the station, get within 25k and just comm the station to get the mission.
I've probably been able to do more mission in 30 minutes in X3:TC then I was on a full day of playing X3:R.
More missions = faster notoriety.
And the fact that you go up the ranks fast probably has something to do with the fact that each mission spawns so many enemies for you that it's just skyrockets after each mission.
I think if the mission spawns were scaled down, then we'd be a bit back to what it should be with Ranking.
As for economic ranking, I don't really see it going up that fast, but then I only have 2 UTs (that spend most of their time in standby anyhow) and 2 factories.
I feel that some improvement of the speed in which you gained race reputation compared to X3R is good, but I think there has been too big an improvement.
In a game I started as bankrupt assassin (my second favourite X3R start after the Khaak one) I was suprised and happy to be chased all over by the bounty hunters as I figured this would help with my race rep, e.g I could nip into a boron border sector, fight a steady stream of bounty hunters and get decent rep. However before I did that I tried a Station Defence mission in Montalaar for a boron and suddenly my rep had surged up to the point where I could dock at stations in boron core sectors, that is way too fast, it should have taken 5-10 such missions to get that result imo.
As for combat rank it seems like I still need to kill the same amount of ships to progress as in X3R, its just that, with the new missions you're able to get those enemies showing up in large amounts early in the game so you progress quicker (time wise), but you're not gaining more rank points per kill. Because I need to kill just the same amount of enemies as in X3R i have no complaints about this aspect.
I used to enjoy the sometimes long and painfull slog to gain race rep in X3R, but I can see why some folk would want a faster way to increase it. As I said at the start some improvement was good but what we have at the moment has taken away too much of the attraction starts like Bankrupt Assassin have for me.
In a game I started as bankrupt assassin (my second favourite X3R start after the Khaak one) I was suprised and happy to be chased all over by the bounty hunters as I figured this would help with my race rep, e.g I could nip into a boron border sector, fight a steady stream of bounty hunters and get decent rep. However before I did that I tried a Station Defence mission in Montalaar for a boron and suddenly my rep had surged up to the point where I could dock at stations in boron core sectors, that is way too fast, it should have taken 5-10 such missions to get that result imo.
As for combat rank it seems like I still need to kill the same amount of ships to progress as in X3R, its just that, with the new missions you're able to get those enemies showing up in large amounts early in the game so you progress quicker (time wise), but you're not gaining more rank points per kill. Because I need to kill just the same amount of enemies as in X3R i have no complaints about this aspect.
I used to enjoy the sometimes long and painfull slog to gain race rep in X3R, but I can see why some folk would want a faster way to increase it. As I said at the start some improvement was good but what we have at the moment has taken away too much of the attraction starts like Bankrupt Assassin have for me.
ScorpiusX Corp company motto:
"We don't want to rule the Galaxy"
"We just want to own it!"
"We don't want to rule the Galaxy"
"We just want to own it!"
I've killed about 150 ships, none of them bigger than an M6, most of them M4s and under, and I'm half way through fighter chief. In X3R I had well over 1000 kills of all sizes up to and including stations and was only at Crusader.
I've completed 15 missions, roughly half a dozen of which are plot and a couple for the Teladi - and I'm on Argon Federation Marshall. Compare that to X3R where I'd done more than 100 missions, mostly Xenon Invasion or high level assassination, donated millions and had a fair size empire going trading billions in overall value and was only 3rd or 4th rank with most races. (Federation Marshall is already 4th rank with Argon)
I don't really buy the argument that it's the availability of missions and spawns that make things seem fast. It's definitely bben sped up. Not sure about the trading as I've done almost none (although I am at Entrepeneur already...which seems quick too)
This thread seems to be polarizing views, so I like the suggestion of a slider. Customize to taste.
I've completed 15 missions, roughly half a dozen of which are plot and a couple for the Teladi - and I'm on Argon Federation Marshall. Compare that to X3R where I'd done more than 100 missions, mostly Xenon Invasion or high level assassination, donated millions and had a fair size empire going trading billions in overall value and was only 3rd or 4th rank with most races. (Federation Marshall is already 4th rank with Argon)
I don't really buy the argument that it's the availability of missions and spawns that make things seem fast. It's definitely bben sped up. Not sure about the trading as I've done almost none (although I am at Entrepeneur already...which seems quick too)
This thread seems to be polarizing views, so I like the suggestion of a slider. Customize to taste.
I agree that the absurd scale of mission difficulty and rank has to do with an attempt to put Think back into Fight, but the problem is that there is no Think, there's Autosave and Hope. Even Average missions spawn 20-30 M5/4/3s and 10 M6s. If the mission gave intel as to possible enemy composition or somesuch so that I can bring in appropriate forces as needed, then I could see the purpose. As it stands, the difficulty spikes too quickly, leading me to actively avoid shooting enemies in a non-mission setting, for fear of unnecessarily increasing my ranking and leaving me without the ships to complete sector patrols or XIs (although sometimes, even with the ships, these missions border on the impossible and framerate-crunching).