Just who came up with 0.3 for hammers?

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philip_hughes
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Just who came up with 0.3 for hammers?

Post by philip_hughes » Sun, 26. Apr 09, 00:08

Just noticed someone divided the no. of Gj a target has with .3 to get the number of hammers. That makes it an equation, right? it looks like this:

No. of hammers = Size of shields/.3

Now the .3 is a constant, so according to scientific convention, the person who figured it out gets naming rights. E.g. if Nuclear slug worked out the math it would be slugs constant. So.... what will this constant be called?

Incidently is it exactly .3?
Last edited by philip_hughes on Sun, 26. Apr 09, 01:03, edited 1 time in total.
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fOSSil
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Post by fOSSil » Sun, 26. Apr 09, 00:19

What? I'm a bit lost here...

Lets assume shield = 5 GJ and hammerhead damage = 1.25 GJ (eng.x3tc.ru). You would need theoretically 4 hammerheads to kill the targets shields, so...

4 = 5 GJ / 1.25

Slugs constant is 1.25, or am I missing something here?

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Post by silenced » Sun, 26. Apr 09, 00:34

a hammer is not a hammerhead ...

although, barraging hammerheads would be overkill ;)
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Post by fOSSil » Sun, 26. Apr 09, 00:55

silenced wrote:a hammer is not a hammerhead...
Well, I apologise. But I blame eng.x3tc.ru for not sorting the missile list by name :P. Not my fault the Hammer is on the second page :)...

Anyway, that makes Slugs Constant to be exactly s(hammer) = 0.3 and of course still s(hammerhead) = 1.25.

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Post by Stars_InTheirEyes » Sun, 26. Apr 09, 01:02

since i figured out that poo stinks can i name it after me?

(said this on purpose go have a field day with it)
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Post by fOSSil » Sun, 26. Apr 09, 01:05

007bradz wrote:since i figured out that poo stinks can i name it after me?
Of course you can! [Bad taste here...]

EDIT: Sorry, I'm a bit edgy tonight... You know why...

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Post by Saracen » Sun, 26. Apr 09, 01:52

007bradz wrote:since i figured out that poo stinks can i name it after me?
You're too late. A person called Poo figured it out first. That's why it's called poo.

:p

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Post by pjknibbs » Sun, 26. Apr 09, 08:14

The 0.3 value is lifted directly from the Player Encyclopaedia, where it tells you exactly how much damage each missile does...it's hardly like Nuklear-Slug discovered some mystic value hidden for eternity in an ancient tomb, is it?

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Post by philip_hughes » Sun, 26. Apr 09, 10:27

Its only an example. I was asking who was the guy who coined the .3.

It doesn't matter how hard it was to arrive at that figure. The plank constant was harder to derive I'm sure. All I want to know is who bunged .3 into the equation, they get the honours.
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Post by StormMagi » Sun, 26. Apr 09, 10:40

Probably someone @ ES when they were balancing they things :)
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Post by Chealec » Sun, 26. Apr 09, 10:41

pjknibbs wrote:The 0.3 value is lifted directly from the Player Encyclopaedia, where it tells you exactly how much damage each missile does...it's hardly like Nuklear-Slug discovered some mystic value hidden for eternity in an ancient tomb, is it?
He might have done - if I'd discovered the secret hidden equation behind the universe that makes everything tick - I'd keep quiet about it too. Keep the tinfoil hats on lads...

Missiles v Shields: I generally calculate missile damage based on 1Gj shields...

1 Hammerhead = 125% of 1Gj shield
1 Firestorm = 100% of 1Gj shield.
1 Tomahawk = 62.5% of 1Gj shield
1 Hammer HT = 30% of 1 Gj shield

Swarm missiles confuse the issue though - I think you get 8 missiles in a Flail swarm which means that damage is no longer a nice pleasant boomean variable (boom or not boom) depending on whether the missile connects - but now becomes some kind of sliding scale, in 5k increments, between 0 and 40k damage (4% of 1Gj).

Trying to work out the chance of a missile getting shot down though - that's a different kettle of Boron entirely.
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Post by NUKLEAR-SLUG » Sun, 26. Apr 09, 12:40

As philip_hughes said, doing a quick

totalshields / 0.3 (round down)

Just gives you the absolute maximum number of Hammers you would want to be firing at a large ship to reduce it's shields to minimum without risking damage. After that you're into the final few percent and should be switching to Flails.

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Post by idaeus » Sun, 26. Apr 09, 12:41

There's no special secret to the equation. 1 hammer heavy torpedo does 300MJ of damage which is the same as 0.3GJ, so to calculate how many hammers you need simply divide the total shield amount (in GJ) by 0.3.

An alternative is to convert the shield value to MJ (1GJ = 1,000MJ) and then divide by 300.

It is nothing more than simple mathematics.

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Post by someone else » Sun, 26. Apr 09, 13:28

It is nothing more than simple mathematics.
yep! but this maths does not cover the number of missiles that get shot down
(in vanilla around 10% if using MARS or another "improved turret script" much more)

thus the discussion on the "simple maths" won't help very much a professional capper in a M7M, it would be a lot more useful a "hammers self destruct" command.
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Post by philip_hughes » Sun, 26. Apr 09, 15:45

I think I will write my name on the book for something here.

You have to add delta t to the equation.

You need to add up the total kj damage, but at a spacing of about 1-1.5 seconds. This means 100% of missiles hit at distance. Simultaneous hits reduce the overall payload of damage.

Try it. Send 24 hammers in one job lot to a j. Reload and send 18 spaced about a second apart. You will find the 24 hammer ship will be around 20% and the 18 spaced will be at around 3%.

Heres the equation. No.hammers = No.Gj/.3 + time of recharge.

at 1.5 seconds spacing you are dealing with 27 seconds recharge time. How much does a shield recharge in half a minute? cause thats the no. of hammers or flails you need to follow up with. I think its a little under 1% every 10 seconds, meaning an extra hammer that will do damage to the hull, or a few flails.

Final calculation:

n(h)=(Gj/0.3)+(T(s)/50)

You could also express it with n if you know how you are going to space your missiles, but it becomes a curve and I cannot be bothered doing calculus this time of night. I got the 50 assuming it takes 50 seconds to recharge enough shields to warrant another hammer.

If we are happy to call the constant "slugs constant" we can just denote that with "S" (note the capital "S" not to be confused with seconds). This equation only works for hammers as other missiles have different payloads.

Therefore:

n(h)=(Gj/s)+(T(s)/50)

Crap! I worked out a constant! That will be Hughes' constant thank you very much...

Heres the final equation then:

n(h)=(Gj/S)+(T(s)/H)

where:

n(h)= No. of hammers
Gj = strength of shields
S = Slugs constant (0.3)
T = Time (seconds)
H = Hughes' constant (50)

So for a 6 Gj ship the total number would be 18 + 27/50 which means you still need to switch to flails to avoid risking damage to the ship. Easy.

*edit- 1/.3=3/1/3 therefore3 missiles per Gj.
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Post by NUKLEAR-SLUG » Mon, 27. Apr 09, 01:21

philip_hughes wrote:You need to add up the total kj damage, but at a spacing of about 1-1.5 seconds. This means 100% of missiles hit at distance. Simultaneous hits reduce the overall payload of damage.

Try it. Send 24 hammers in one job lot to a j. Reload and send 18 spaced about a second apart. You will find the 24 hammer ship will be around 20% and the 18 spaced will be at around 3%.
Not sure where you're getting that from. 24 Hammers at a K will result in a big fireball.

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Post by Kor'ah » Mon, 27. Apr 09, 01:28

Proximity effect of the missiles can cause problems. The hit on target also takes out 1-2 hammers behind it before impact. This lowers overall damage and a good reason not to use the barrage command with Hammer heavy torps and tomahawks. Single fire tends to get the job done.
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Post by fOSSil » Mon, 27. Apr 09, 01:29

philip_hughes wrote:I got the 50 assuming it takes 50 seconds to recharge enough shields to warrant another hammer.

Crap! I worked out a constant! That will be Hughes' constant thank you very much...

H = Hughes' constant (50)
But that depends on the target ship's shield generator and is therefore not constant, is it?

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Post by Carlo the Curious » Mon, 27. Apr 09, 01:32

It depends - it will only matter if the shield generators are lower than the recharge rate of the shields.

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Post by NUKLEAR-SLUG » Mon, 27. Apr 09, 11:26

Kor'ah wrote:Proximity effect of the missiles can cause problems. The hit on target also takes out 1-2 hammers behind it before impact. This lowers overall damage and a good reason not to use the barrage command with Hammer heavy torps and tomahawks. Single fire tends to get the job done.
Maybe so, but you have to assume 100% hit rate if you want to compare to the two situations equally. At the moment just arbitrarily deciding that n torpedoes will blow themselves up just unfairly skews your numbers.

For example, I could just as easily and unfairly state that equally spacing out a stream of torpedoes makes it much easier for the target ship to shoot down several of them whereas swamping it in warheads will only give it time to shoot down one.

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