Enough of this gunnery!

[KaZTek]

(Reason why I put this in Scripts&Modding is because that I hope that someone has something that'll bring this to fruitition, else, a good discussion is also appreciated )

I've just realized a huge paradigm shift in terms of X3TC's combat and its understood idea of WWII-ish dogfights and guns.

Its its own form of combat, after all, since M3's are slower than M4's and M5's, and thus involve different weapons for different situations. Add to the fact that there are bigger ships than the M3 that can hit harder, or do different jobs, etc.

This was all set in stone since X2, and refined in X3R. Then X3TC came along with the missile frigates.

Everything changed.

Now we find that missiles, like the modern age of naval warships, are the weapons of war, defeating gunnery in range, accuracy, and kill potential.

Why dont we take the next best step? Why dont we bring the missile warfare that we know of modern dogfighting to the fighters?

Well, its obvious. The combat AI doesnt support such things as Beyond Visual Range (BVR) missile combat and instead rely on the tried and true X3 gunnery. As myself, I barely have any experience with having missiles on my AI ships, and often left this out in my AI ship setups.

Now, I'm thinking I should. It is the logical next step of X universe's combat paradigm. But, what about the AI? What about some of the missiles deemed "useless"? What about the economy?

Comments?

[WindsOfBoreas]

I like the idea. My ships are always armed to the teeth with missiles that are manufactured at my factories.

In fact, most of the fights I am in are fought mostly with missiles - wildfire and banshee usually. My dogfighting is more like the Vietnam air war than today's battles, however.

[Jaga_Telesin]

Install MARS, you'll find that fights return to the dogfight style again. Missiles are largely redundant unless your ship doesn't have the software installed in the first place, or a good turret in the back.

It is in my opinion, one of the top ten absolute necessary scripts in all my games.

MARS is also tunable, meaning that you can lower CPU use and allow all AI ships to make use of it without adversely impacting your game's performance. Completely changes the way battle unfolds, especially if you make use of Goblins that can help with missile defense. Doesn't make missiles totally useless, but it makes them less of an impact than any vanilla game.

[someone else]

MARS makes boarding and using missiles quite difficult, reaching the point of rendering the M7M a "balanced tool"

I like your idea. and in fact the AI is ok with that imho. You only need a script that controls missile launching to make the AI launch the right missile at the right enemy and at the right time.

one possible problem though: AI ships do not resupply anywhere so their missile reserves (consisting of 3-4 missiles) will be exausted in a few rounds of fight. So you need to use a modified script that spawns missiles on board the fighters like the AI Ammo Cheat by Gazz spawns ammo when needed. (and is surely needed because the ships spawn with 1-2 crates of ammo)

the economy won't change. There are not enough weapons to equip all AI ships but the Game engine just spawns them magically equipped, so for the missiles will be the same.

[KaZTek]

MARS is also tunable, meaning that you can lower CPU use and allow all AI ships to make use of it without adversely impacting your game's performance.

*brain fizzle* Agauuu.... aguh... duurrrr....

How do I manage this?

[someone else]

just use the "No MARS on AI ships". The other ships will use the Missile defense Mk2 script (by Gazz, included in MARS) that still makes using missiles quite difficult while being far lighter than MARS.

p.s. MARS isn't so CPU-heavy though.

[apricotslice]

Interesting thought process.

I noticed that myself, that with TC people started talking much more about missiles in combat.

However, to me, a misille still remains a product to sell for credits and not something you waste firing at anyone.

I guess thats the benefit of modding. I modded the PBE into an effective weapon against any kind of ship, and it takes care of any missiles aimed at me, regardless of how many there are. If some do get through, the extra shielding I carry compensates.

But I agree, with the M7M and M8, there should also have been a stand off at a distance to attack command to give to any ship with a primary role of missile firing. It should have been an automatic addition to the commands with the introduction of the ships. Typical though, in that a good feature is only partly implemented.

If someone can figure out how to do it, it would be what a lot of people want.

[superbun]

Now we find that missiles, like the modern age of naval warships, are the weapons of war, defeating gunnery in range, accuracy, and kill potential.

Why dont we take the next best step? Why dont we bring the missile warfare that we know of modern dogfighting to the fighters?

so what you're looking for is a M3M?

intresting idea.... if I was any good at modding, i'd try and make one...

[jlehtone]

But I agree, with the M7M and M8, there should also have been a stand off at a distance to attack command to give to any ship with a primary role of missile firing. It should have been an automatic addition to the commands with the introduction of the ships. Typical though, in that a good feature is only partly implemented.

If someone can figure out how to do it, it would be what a lot of people want.

Essentially, the stock attack.target boils down to:
1. Fly close to target
2. If close, shoot
3. Dodge
4. Repeat

Missileboats should, naturally, do it like:
1. Fly to firing position
2. Launch ordnance
3, Repeat


Lucike's CODEA script seems to contain some "Bombers", and a "Bombard" command. But as you can guess, Lucike's scripts are very much like Lucike's scripts -- you either use them or don't like their approach.

[KaZTek]

Personally, I use Luckile's scripts like drug to an addict. I simply cannot function without them, and as such, perfectly work with them.

I'm not one about removing guns off an M3, no no no. There's ALWAYS going to be a gun in a dogfight. Its just that there are basically 3 stages to a dogfight (at least in modern day combat fighters):

1. BVR (Beyond Visual Range), this is where your missiles and radar come into play and what X3TC currently lacks the most
2. close-range (usually) heat-seeker missiles fits the middle (where X3TC can work with, just dont know how to do so with stock AI commands, and I know its possible, seen it done to me... painfully >_< )
3. gunfight (staple that we all know)

I'm just trying to get no.2 to work to satisfy myself and prevent a monitor-out-the-window episode of frustration when I lose 50 million in fighters and equipment all because the enemy happen to have had missiles on his fighters during the dogfight...

[Gazz]

2. and 3. are most likely capped to 3km because the ES fight scripts...
- fly to within 3km of target
- start fighting, shooting missiles, everything.

Turrets can work at any range.

That's why if you see an M7 like a Q fly towards you it will fire any turrets that can aim forward long before it fires the cockpit guns.
For the cockpit guns it needs to get within 3km.


1. does not exist in X3 except for M8/M7M. And the missile turret scripts are extremely limited as is. Usually because these ships... carry no missiles.
Oh, and OWP can fire long range missiles - sporadically.



If you edited the original fight scripts and changed the engagement range to > 3km you would somewhat alleviate the problem but the scripts would then draw more CPU power than necessary.
Ideally you'd decouple missile use from the actual fighting by making it a separate task so it can happen while the task 0 fight script is executing the uninterrupted flyto/follow instruction.

Still - one major problem you'd face is that AI ships have no supporting infrastructure whatsoever.
If they resupply missiles at a mil station then it's a completely random occurrence and wasn't in any way planned.
Now if you make missiles a useful part of combat you'd also have to figure out a way for them to rearm. Otherwise the former is a waste of time.