...joystick cuts out intermittently during gameplay.
I am running Vista Ultimate 32-bit and have just finished playing X-BTF and aside from some 'hyper sensitive' keyboard controls the game played just fine.
I downloaded (via Steam) and ran X3 and it looks beautiful, runs at a great framerate, but half the keyboard commands do not function.
I have NOT changed anything from the defaults.
Now, I have seen another user complain about Saitek joysticks and weirdness with the game; however, I have an AV8R-01 and it has worked flawlessly with every game I've ever tried with it and it worked flawlessly with X-BTF.
I've made sure I have the latest Vista 32-bit Saitek driver and still no luck.
Many keys just don't work, and if I use the menu for something and I'm in cockpit view, the joystick no longer works. If I switch to external view suddenly the joystick works (but I cannot use the F1 to switch back to cockpit view.) Manually switching back to cockpit via the mouse gets the cockpit back and the joystick is working. Now, this game has been out for YEARS and I actually wrote a DirectInput app to see how the Saitek reports its keys and axes, and it works just like it should (of course.)
Steam reports that I have version 3.0, so what's up with such ridiculous bugs in a game this old and popular?
Many keyboard commands do not function and...
Moderators: timon37, Moderators for English X Forum
Many keyboard commands do not function and...
Nemo insula est
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Alan Phipps
- Moderator (English)
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Surely you mean " ... so what's up with my system and set up that it cannot run a game this old and popular?"... so what's up with such ridiculous bugs in a game this old and popular?
Seriously, you cannot really expect applicable advice unless you read and comply with the first Announcement on this forum and then we can try to help you.
No, I mean exactly what I wrote - why does a game that has been out this long still have bad joystick handling code?
As someone with a history in the graphics/game software engineering field I can assure you that given the testing I did yesterday that the problem does not lay in Saitek's direction. I tested it with more than 5 games of varying ages and it worked without issue in all of them. Issues like this usually arise from someone being 'clever' about manipulating polling routines, but who knows what it could be, a vanilla DirectInput application exhibits no problems, and all the other games I've tried exhibit no problems.
I even went back into X-BTF to double check what the experience was like without using the joystick (to see if there was any difference) and I noticed that the keyboard does operate differently in X-BTF. I had always presumed that the X-BTF was hyper-sensitive to keyboard commands because of some minor timing issue that didn't account for my modern machine (if you pressed the SETA 'j' for example, you had to tap it REALLY quickly otherwise it would turn on and then off); however, when I disconnected the joystick and played X-BTF, the issue disappeared; ergo, this problem appears to has existed in some form from X-BTF, possibly all the games between if they used the same framework, through X3 TC. I haven't played the other X games, so this may not be the case.
Sorry, but you don't need my DXDiag dump to know that the X3 TC's joystick handling code is suspect when all I have to do is unplug it and the keyboard works as expected.
Since these issues are evidenced as far back as X-BTF, I doubt they'd ever bother fixing it, why bother if it only seems to affect Saitek customers?
I picked this up off Steam for $19, it doesn't seem worth buying another joystick for that reason. That's a little sad, because I loved Elite, enjoyed X-BTF, and think X3 TC looks glorious...
As someone with a history in the graphics/game software engineering field I can assure you that given the testing I did yesterday that the problem does not lay in Saitek's direction. I tested it with more than 5 games of varying ages and it worked without issue in all of them. Issues like this usually arise from someone being 'clever' about manipulating polling routines, but who knows what it could be, a vanilla DirectInput application exhibits no problems, and all the other games I've tried exhibit no problems.
I even went back into X-BTF to double check what the experience was like without using the joystick (to see if there was any difference) and I noticed that the keyboard does operate differently in X-BTF. I had always presumed that the X-BTF was hyper-sensitive to keyboard commands because of some minor timing issue that didn't account for my modern machine (if you pressed the SETA 'j' for example, you had to tap it REALLY quickly otherwise it would turn on and then off); however, when I disconnected the joystick and played X-BTF, the issue disappeared; ergo, this problem appears to has existed in some form from X-BTF, possibly all the games between if they used the same framework, through X3 TC. I haven't played the other X games, so this may not be the case.
Sorry, but you don't need my DXDiag dump to know that the X3 TC's joystick handling code is suspect when all I have to do is unplug it and the keyboard works as expected.
Since these issues are evidenced as far back as X-BTF, I doubt they'd ever bother fixing it, why bother if it only seems to affect Saitek customers?
I picked this up off Steam for $19, it doesn't seem worth buying another joystick for that reason. That's a little sad, because I loved Elite, enjoyed X-BTF, and think X3 TC looks glorious...
Nemo insula est
quote CBJ,hkessock wrote:Screw it, this game seems to offer so much gameplay value that I'll just have to get a different joystick... Anyone have recommendations for a HOTAS type of joystick that works well with X3 TC? (Doesn't have to be actual HOTAS, but similar would be nice.)
"When making any kind of Technical Support request, whether relating to an error message, possible bug, performance problem or other issue, the following information is required and should be included in your very first post in each thread:
- Exact nature of the problem and where and when it occurs.
- Your system specifications in the form of a DXDiag report (see this FAQ entry for details).
- Game version and language (e.g. 1.0.1 English).
- Whether or not your game is modified using any scripts/mods.
- Where appropriate, additional symptoms, error messages and screenshots.
- Where appropriate, type of game played (game start, custom game etc.)
Failing to provide this information will make it pretty much impossible for people to help you and may mean that it takes longer for your problem to be identified and hopefully solved. So please don't waste your own time and everyone else's by just posting something like "My game freezes. Help!!!".
Please also take the time to check and see if your problem has already been reported, and if so then use the existing thread. Note that similar symptoms don't necessarily mean the same cause, so if in doubt feel free to start a new thread.
Note: If you are running any third party scripts or mods then you will almost certainly be asked to reproduce the problem in an unmodified game before any support can be provided. Support for third party scripts and mods must be provided by the authors of the content, and any requests for such support should be posted in the appropriate thread in the Scripts and Modding forum."
Yes, already covered.
Absolutely no need for DXDiag. If you don't understand why, we don't need to be discussing this issue.
Already stated that it was X3 TC installed via steam.
If I had any mods/scripts installed I would have mentioned them.
Thanks for repeating what the other poster said except ad nauseum.
Absolutely no need for DXDiag. If you don't understand why, we don't need to be discussing this issue.
Already stated that it was X3 TC installed via steam.
If I had any mods/scripts installed I would have mentioned them.
Thanks for repeating what the other poster said except ad nauseum.
Nemo insula est
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Alan Phipps
- Moderator (English)
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- Joined: Fri, 16. Apr 04, 19:21
I waited to see if anyone else with Saitek experience jumped in.
You said " ... the X3 TC's joystick handling code is suspect when all I have to do is unplug it and the keyboard works as expected."
To me that indicates that the joystick is sending an unanticipated continuous or intermittent code to the game, perhaps a stuck key or stick calibration issue, or maybe just a normal outcome of its set-up or mode since you say it is acting completely correctly. As " someone with a history in the graphics/game software engineering field " surely you can investigate by reallocating command keys in-game, or fault elimination on the joystick using recalibration or -ignorejoy such as in this FAQ? http://www.egosoft.com/support/faq/faq_ ... c415af8f05
Good luck with it anyway.
You said " ... the X3 TC's joystick handling code is suspect when all I have to do is unplug it and the keyboard works as expected."
To me that indicates that the joystick is sending an unanticipated continuous or intermittent code to the game, perhaps a stuck key or stick calibration issue, or maybe just a normal outcome of its set-up or mode since you say it is acting completely correctly. As " someone with a history in the graphics/game software engineering field " surely you can investigate by reallocating command keys in-game, or fault elimination on the joystick using recalibration or -ignorejoy such as in this FAQ? http://www.egosoft.com/support/faq/faq_ ... c415af8f05
Good luck with it anyway.
Yeah, I'm still debugging it until I figure out what a decent joystick is that definitely works without issues in X3 TC.
I've tried different cooperative levels, different format requests (thinking that maybe Saitek has a problem with the format and no other game I've tried uses that format), overpolling, underpolling, mishandling state data, et cetera, ad nauseum...
Even though the device doesn't support force feedback, I've tried initializing it thinking that may make the joystick act strangely, no luck...
I can't find any weirdness in the device, and the problem is present to a lesser degree in X-BTF and in the worst case in X3 TC.
I would LOVE to get to fix/debug/augment/validate the input handling code from X3 TC - free of charge of course
.
In the meantime, anyone have a joystick setup with a throttle (as opposed to a slider) that they like with X3 TC?
I've tried different cooperative levels, different format requests (thinking that maybe Saitek has a problem with the format and no other game I've tried uses that format), overpolling, underpolling, mishandling state data, et cetera, ad nauseum...
Even though the device doesn't support force feedback, I've tried initializing it thinking that may make the joystick act strangely, no luck...
I can't find any weirdness in the device, and the problem is present to a lesser degree in X-BTF and in the worst case in X3 TC.
I would LOVE to get to fix/debug/augment/validate the input handling code from X3 TC - free of charge of course
.In the meantime, anyone have a joystick setup with a throttle (as opposed to a slider) that they like with X3 TC?
Nemo insula est
Thanks for that link by the way, it made me suspicious about what it could be and it turned out that the AV8R, which has a 3 position toggle switch, is the root of the issue.
Now, this isn't a bug in the device, and contrary to what the link says it doesn't "send a continuous signal" and it doesn't "create problems in DirectX" it is quite obviously a bug in the joystick evaluation code in the game engine.
There are two types of polling evaluation in DirectX, immediate and buffered. Most people tinkering with DirectX work with immediate mode because it is simply a snapshot of the current state of the device since the last time you polled it. The other method is used in most professional applications and/or games, buffered, because it tells you the accumulated state changes since the last time you polled the device.
Using buffered data is critical because you need to know if someone has released a button/key/whatever since the last time you polled the device and pressed it again.
This is, very likely, why X has this problem.
IF this is the issue (which seems very likely), the solution is simple. You use buffered data and process the event buffer each poll and simply evaluate which buttons remained on and which buttons were 'off' and then were depressed again.
Again, thanks for the link. I wouldn't have suspected (or doubtful that I would have) that the game was using immediate mode DirectInput data.
Now, this isn't a bug in the device, and contrary to what the link says it doesn't "send a continuous signal" and it doesn't "create problems in DirectX" it is quite obviously a bug in the joystick evaluation code in the game engine.
There are two types of polling evaluation in DirectX, immediate and buffered. Most people tinkering with DirectX work with immediate mode because it is simply a snapshot of the current state of the device since the last time you polled it. The other method is used in most professional applications and/or games, buffered, because it tells you the accumulated state changes since the last time you polled the device.
Using buffered data is critical because you need to know if someone has released a button/key/whatever since the last time you polled the device and pressed it again.
This is, very likely, why X has this problem.
IF this is the issue (which seems very likely), the solution is simple. You use buffered data and process the event buffer each poll and simply evaluate which buttons remained on and which buttons were 'off' and then were depressed again.
Again, thanks for the link. I wouldn't have suspected (or doubtful that I would have) that the game was using immediate mode DirectInput data.
Nemo insula est
I suggest that if you cannot follow simple instructions you shouldn't be discussing these issues. Forum rules say provide dxdiag. I didn't write the rules, nor do I enforce them but you will certainly get more help by being human than by being a jerk.hkessock wrote:Yes, already covered.
Absolutely no need for DXDiag. If you don't understand why, we don't need to be discussing this issue.
Already stated that it was X3 TC installed via steam.
If I had any mods/scripts installed I would have mentioned them.
Thanks for repeating what the other poster said except ad nauseum.
good day
I follow simple and complex instructions quite well; however, I am also capable of understanding (usually) when something does or does not warrant a particular step. I am not correct 100% of the time, but I was certainly correct this time.
You can act as as you wish by asserting that people don't deserve or shouldn't get help unless they provide you with a DXDiag dump, but that's most likely because you're being a touch pedantic.
If you think I'm being a jerk by knowing when a DXDiag will most likely only cloud the issue at hand, well, it's you're entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine. I don't think you're a jerk, you just seem to have an overblown sense of your own importance.
You can act as as you wish by asserting that people don't deserve or shouldn't get help unless they provide you with a DXDiag dump, but that's most likely because you're being a touch pedantic.
If you think I'm being a jerk by knowing when a DXDiag will most likely only cloud the issue at hand, well, it's you're entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine. I don't think you're a jerk, you just seem to have an overblown sense of your own importance.
Nemo insula est