Teladi huge ships don't defend themselves IS

[Khaakbuster]

Hi,

on several occasions I have witnessed strange behaviour of Teladi M1 and M2. They were attacked by enemy ships and didn't fire back. This was especially easy to see in Xenon sectors which the Teladi invaded. The Phoenix or Condor was just flying around and gets shot at by Qs, fighters and so on and doesn't fire back. Eventually the Teladi ship will be destroyed.

I keep asking myself some questions but couldn't find an answer so far:

1. I wonder if this inability to defend itself has to do with the huge size of Teladi ships? Maybe because the weapons have a limited range the game never sees the target "in range" because if calculates from the cockpit or something?

2. When I scanned a ship I could see that it had CIGs or ISRs which are energy based weapons. So the reason wasn't that it had run out of ammo. But what if on the same side of the ship are some weapons which are out of ammo, for example front turret with 2x Gauss (out of ammo) and 6x PPC? Will it still fire?

3. On one occasion I could see that a Condor had some PSGs mounted together with CIGs. The PSG has a low range. Will it prevent the other weapons on that side from firing on targets within their range?


Because of this issue Teladi M1 and M2 pretty much suck IS. Is there a fix?

Teladi M7 don't seem to have this problem by the way.

[cj-spartacus]

Putting a single CIG on a turret with PSG is a good idea because the PSG will fire once in range with the CIG.

Were you perhaps in SETA during the combat? SETA breaks the turrets and they don't fire. It's a handy trick when boarding.

[Khaakbuster]

No, I don't use SETA while in combat. I was just watching the fight im my M3 and hoped that I could pick up some loot afterwards.

[Alan Phipps]

In OOS fights if any ammo-based weapon is mounted anywhere on a ship and has no ammo then no weapons at all will be fired in that round, except maybe a missile. You were obviously IS with the Teladi capital but maybe that rule partly holds true for NPC ships even IS. Did you see any GC ammo on board as well as the mounted GC?

I would think that PSG + CIG would not be a good turret combination for IS because the ranges are just so different and thus the PSGs would be wasting a lot of energy in IS fights (and probably causing collateral damage). PSG + PAC combined seem to work well on Player ship turrets IS as the PSG has a longer effective damage range than the engagement range listed for it, so firing when a bit beyond its range is handy. OOS mixed weapon ranges and laser energy don't matter at all, just the total damage of all weapons mounted and group-selected counts.

One other possibility was that the turrets on the capital were tracking missiles or fast Ns as targets rather than the Qs and just never caught up enough to shoot while the fast crossing targets were in range and turret arc.

[cj-spartacus]

PSG range is set at 1km but once the wave is at full size the actual range is well in excess of 3km. Therefore having a longer ranged weapon makes much fuller use of the PSG when attacking large swathes of enemy fighters.

[Snafu_X3]

PSG<>PBG!

Phased Shockwave Generator (blue/white 'wave' effect). Book range 1.44Km. Only fits on M6 & above

Plasma Burst Generator (the flamethrower thing). Book range 0.787Km. Fits heavy fighters (M3) & above

Phased Repeater Gun (fast-firing little red triple balls). Book range 2.32Km. Fits M4 & above, plus the Kestrel & some freighters

[Alan Phipps]

As long as we are talking vanilla TC, the PSG listed range is 1.44 km.
In tests, it has no effect at 3 km, a tiny damage effect at 2.5 km, a reasonable damage effect at 2 km, and full damage at 1-1.75 km. Thus I stand by PSG + PAC (or HEPT/PRG/FAA/CFA) being a good IS turret combination (especially for fighter defence), however combining PSG + CIG (3.46 km range) is just potentially wasteful of energy in a turret IS and is also slow to track targets.

[Thunders]

Because of this issue Teladi M1 and M2 pretty much suck IS

Don't judge ships if the AI equips them and/or flies them poorly. They're fine if you own them, gear them properly and configure their turrets right.

[tbowen]

If I read it right Khaakbuster is talking about the behavior of IA controlled M1s & M2s--not his own ships (whether IS or OSS).

So, what everyone is saying about range, etc. could be true. But, on the other hand it is pretty doubtful that the Teladi are actually invading Xenon space, they are more likely passing through. If that is the case, then could it be that their movement orders are superceding their defense/attack orders? So, while they are being pelted, they are concentrating on moving and the subroutines for defense are being overridden.

[Khaakbuster]

Thanks for the answers so far.

Let me clarify a few things:

1. I'm talking about in-sector fights.

2. I'm only talking about AI controlled Teladi ships.

3. I wouldn't mind the AI shooting with PSGs even if it causes collateral damage. I know that I better keep my distance in that case.

4. On one occasion there were only two Qs battling one Phoenix. So I highly doubt that the turrets were tracking missiles or fighters.

I didn't judge the ships to be poor in my hands. I never bought them because I don't really like the looks of the Teladi ships. But I find it a flaw that the AI is not able to use them right. Seeing a destroyer completely helpless against a frigate or corvette makes me cry...
When I watch an Argon M1 or M2 fight they actually kick ass. The Teladi seem to be bugged somehow. But I couldn't figure out what the real cause for this is.

I suspect the fight scripts. One thing that I noticed myself is that when I fly my Panther there is a certain range where my guns won't fire as well because I'm too close to the target. Maybe with the big body of Teladi ships the target is either "out of range" or "below range" for a certain weapon loadout?


Btw. the invasions come from "Military Base Response" script and with that the Teladi sometimes invade Xenon sector 598 or 347. The Argon or Split do the same with Xenon sector 472. Actually it is fun to just watch them fight. When there are abandoned ships I try to claim them and get them to a nearby shipyard. This provided a good income at the beginning.

[Thunders]

But I find it a flaw that the AI is not able to use them right. Seeing a destroyer completely helpless against a frigate or corvette makes me cry...

I have never seen AI ships act that dumb. I only play vanilla.

The Teladi seem to be bugged somehow. But I couldn't figure out what the real cause for this is.

I think you've answered your own question:

I suspect the fight scripts.

Btw. the invasions come from "Military Base Response" script

[Khaakbuster]

I don't think that MBR scripts are the reason. MBR ships are running vanilla commands on their turrets and as far as I know it doesn't matter which command a ship has. If its turrets are set to "attack enemies" for example it will shoot at any aggressor no matter what.
I just checked an invasion force and it was set to "missile defense".

But thanks for the hint anyway. I'm using Gazz' "Missile Defense MKII" which overrides vanilla "missile defense" command. I will look at that script to see if it contains code that could cause this issue. Next time I see this problem I will disable Gazz' scripts and see if it fixes the problem.