P vs Paranid

[deca.death]

.

15 min ago i went into Home of light and found it terrorized by Paranid task force. I was in P and was curious how long will I last. P is not particularly powerful vessel, only one tail turret, only 10k weapon energy and 2x200MJ shield. Speed 135 m/s btw. Thing it really excels is turn rate, which is fabulous (24.4, Tenjin 23.9 : )

I had 8 EEMPC in nose, HEPT in tail, 10 typhoons, 10 tempests 30 wasps and 50 mossies (I travel lightly in light corvette, to little fuel ; )

Paranid had:
3 deimoses
2 heavy nemesis
approx 30 fighters of all sizes, most of them PBG wielding (!!)
8 hades

In short - killed them all. I am experienced corvette pilot but I still should not be able to do it. Main reason I could pull this out was turbo booster. Without it, I would be fried many times. BTW for some reason my MMD didn't seem to react, I had to shoot down incoming tomahawks manually with mossies.

So if you want something to snort about in imbalance part, first thing on your list should be turbo booster. That thing really made the game easy.

[Panzerman]

The turbo booster is totally cheater. I think a better balance would be if it slowly drained shield energy AND E-cells. That would make it useful for getting from point A to B quickly, and for escaping fights you have no hope of winning - but the shield energy restriction would make it less useful in tactical situations. The cooldown could probably go away in that case, too.

Going toe to toe with an M2 in a corvette then speeding away at 300+ M/S when your shields are at about 5% is wildly OP.

[Triaxx2]

Missiles do more than 300m/s. Not cheating at all.

And I love the P. It was the first Corvette I used in TC.

[Panzerman]

The only missiles that move faster than 300 m/s and pose any threat at all to an M6 are the Flail and the Ghoul.

Still totally cheater.

[Triaxx2]

Even one with only 5% shields?

[Reimu Hakurei]

May I ask, why a HEPT in the back?

[Sovereign01]

Better, have the Turbo drain weapon energy- since you're going to be using it to run away, it's more plausible to transfer power from weapons to engines than from shields to engines

[Panzerman]

Even one with only 5% shields?

5% shields is 20k-50k shield energy on an M6. It's going to take a LOT of disruptors, hurricanes, or wasp volleys to overpower the shield generator (one hit every other second just to keep up with it on a P) and do significant hull damage - even if the M6 is at zero shields when it starts to run.

Add the fact that the faster missiles have their closing speed reduced to under 200m/s, and that's a long, long time for the rear battery on a corvette to pick away at them.

Turbo makes M6 class ships monsters. There's no way to argue that it's balanced. Totally cheater.

[deca.death]

May I ask, why a HEPT in the back?

According to my mini field test (Boreas filled with HEPTs, PACs and PRGs on each side one type) it fared quite well on most of pirate and CW targets. It tracks quickly, has some problems on faster lateral movements but it compensates on more steady shots due to greater hit power. Vs agile xenon fighters it's not as good but most guns have the same problem. P has enough energy (EMPCs suck very little in front) so I wanted something as powerful as possible. Single PRG or PAC do lack some hit power. In heavy corvette with 3 double turrets PRG is more viable option IMHO

[deca.death]

.

Now about "cheater" expression, we cannot say that it's a cheater because it was obviously put in there by game developer. But speed of ship is essential for balance in this game. Faster ships pay for their speed dearly (except SB ; ) as it should be. To give a player such a powerful tool of choosing it's battleground vs already feebleminded AI is not particularly balancing. It makes game much more easier. When in trouble just press button. Lame but hard to resist using it. I agree that it would been far more balanced if it would suck down shields in a process. Not weapon energy, it regenerates too fast. This way the advantage it provides to player is blatantly excessive.


Now about P, it's one of the ships that doesn't look so good on paper. His small body and superb turning speed gives AI very evasive target. I was constantly surprised how little my shields got dented in prolonged firefights with multiple opponents. I'm absolutely certain that my considerably bigger and not so nippy hyperion would be much more bruised. Further more those EMPCs provide decent damage output for ridiculously small amounts of energy (courtesy of our Terran friends)

[SIMON POPPLEWELL]

@deca.death - What kind of weapons was the Deimos carrying? I had a similar experience in Ore Belt and got hammered (flying Hyperion) as the Deimos was armed with PSGs. In the end I was forced to retreat and pepper it with missiles.

[Nanook]

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Now about "cheater" expression, we cannot say that it's a cheater because it was obviously put in there by game developer. ....

Just to clarify, it's a player-made script that was signed by Egosoft and put in the Bonus Pack. The Bonus Pack is a separate entity, not part of the game itself. That makes it an optional extra, not a built-in part of the game.

@Panzerman: That said, one player's 'cheat' is another players fun. Those that don't like it don't have to use it, but please stop calling it a 'cheat' just because you personally find it too easy.

[handy388]

I have to say I am surprised that speed boost made it into the game as something that does not alter balance. I personally do not use it.

[deca.death]

@deca.death - What kind of weapons was the Deimos carrying?

All three carried some combo of FLAKs, IBLs, HEPTs and CIGs. That's actually great advantage for a small P. Computer doesn't use FLAKs vs capital ships (M6 included) and that leaves you great blind zones pretty much everywhere. You can dodge IBLs with ease, that's only thing that hurts. HEPT and CIG occasionally score (CIG doesn't toss you, another M6 advantage vs fighter ; ) but you can withstand that. Rest is easy.

And no wonder that you had to practice RSLLG maneuver vs PSG wielding Deimos, it's a fearsome weapon with devastating radius and power. Maybe you should try approach on a side that doesn't mount it. Deimos is clumsy enough for that.

[Catra]

Balance is already altered when the player jumps into the ship, a lil extra is hardly going to make things worse. =p

[deca.death]

Just to clarify, it's a player-made script that was signed by Egosoft and put in the Bonus Pack.

Well, yes but developer decided to include it, it is as they made it more or less. Adding a new content to a game well rounded, extensive, complex and balanced as X series is always a tricky stuff. It's always complicated trying to juggle between adding something new and cool and powerful and balance. Personally I think that CW world functions best for itself. No Terrans, no bonus pack (except CLSes ; ) no springblossoms or shadow missiles. That is a core and a backbone of a game that makes it so great.

[Triaxx2]

I gotta agree Deca.death. I picked up a P in my Terran game and was advised to sell it. I didn't and used it to great effect until I was able to move to the PX. It's got a very narrow vertical profile, and groups the outgoing shots together nicely.

One of the things I don't like about the Hydra I'm flying now is how wide the shots come from, and end up at close range.

P also has a short front to rear profile. Thus fewer shots hitting as you go past. HypV is much longer.

Mine was armed entirely with PAC's, but that was because I got them on fire sale at the Light Weapons Complex in OmLy.

[Panzerman]

@Panzerman: That said, one player's 'cheat' is another players fun. Those that don't like it don't have to use it, but please stop calling it a 'cheat' just because you personally find it too easy.

I don't intend to apply some sort of ethical judgement about how one should play their game when I refer to it as "cheater." I'll certainly grant that fun is subjective and I'm not about to tell someone that how they enjoy the game is wrong. That said, there's something about the game in which we all can find some common ground in what is fun - otherwise we wouldn't all be here talking about it.

I think balance is a very important (if not the most important) factor in a fun game. A definition of where that balance should be will obviously vary from person to person, and the fact that X3 is so heavily modifiable in that regard is one of it's great strengths. I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that the vanilla version of the game should tend towards the middle path regarding balance, and the developers released the bonus pack of signed mods with their blessing that the included scripts fit well within that balance.

The Turbo Booster completely annhilates that balance. You can call it overpowered, game-breaking, cheater, or whatever else, but it's the same thing: it gives an unquestionably absurd tactical advantage to the player, and it's not terribly useful for much else (i.e. as a matter of convenience) because of the cooldown restraints placed on it. It's great for smashing huge fleets of capitals and escorts with an M6, it's not so great for getting across Maelstrom in a hurry because you're tired of looking at empty space and clouds of green stuff.

Whether the individual player wants to use it or not is largely beside the point - personally, I use the heck out of it because the Hyperion is too pretty for me to want to fly something larger. It's certainly justifiable in the sense that it's fun, but absolutely not defensible if you approach it from a standpoint of balance. Hence: "cheater," which should carry no stigma at all in a single player game.

[greypanther]

You cannot really complain about it being op if you use it; that makes little sense.

As has been said endlessly, if you do not like, don't use, especially if it is op to you.

I for instance do not use straffe/MMD/turbo boost as I feel they spoil the balance for me.

[deca.death]

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PAC is good choice for P. It emphasizes it's fighter's nature (P is more like oversized fighter then a vette, it's superb turning gives you feeling of flying something closer to a nova raider rather then a skiron) and it's much more precise. It has comparable shield damage and range, costs 50% more to fire (still manageable I hope) but seriously lacks hull damage (3x less then EMPC - more important vs big targets)

Interesting:

PAC costs 120 to fire, P could fire it for 22 sec (8 pcs)
EMPC costs 80 to fire, P could fire it for 67 sec (8 pcs)

This really says all.


BTW I don't like PX as much. It's more heavy ship, but turning speed has gone to standard CW waters, not so great turret coverage and it can mount only energy hungry ISRs, no CIG : ( Better weapon generator but nothing to use it more properly. I experimented with 7 FBLs. Not so bad but quite weak vs fighters. just lacks precision. It munches up corvette quite quickly though.