Good choice for a large-wing fighter?

[Panzerman]

I'm ready to start outfitting a carrier or two. I'm thinking that the Falcon Hauler is the best choice available right now - sentinel looks like a better fighter with those massive shields, but I suppose I'll have to wait until I can RE one and start building them when I get my PHQ.

Is equipping EBCs on fighters worth it? They've got the storage capacity for it, but I'm not sure how much laser energy limitations affect AI controlled ships. Sourcing and supplying ammo won't be a problem though.

I'm also curious about how well the AI uses missiles. My munitions production complexes are...extensive. I can load these things full of basically whatever missile loadout I feel like. Would Tornados be useful for ships set to attack capitals, or would they just waste them?

[Fattyfat]

AI doesn't seem to handle ammunition based weapons well at all, particularly OOS. I've read that missiles are also fairly useless OOS.

IS, you can increase the missile chance and make them fairly useful on wings, as long as you fill them up with missiles that WON'T destroy the firing ship (So for an m3, Silkworms are a good choice since they won't explode the firing ship). Bigger payload missiles I'm not sure about, I'd worry about them killing themselves too often.

I'd say any of the m3's with 200mj shields are optimum for large wings, but not very cost effective. If money isn't an issue, those Falcons will probably work out great.

[garv222]

I've used falcon haulers before and they work decently IS. So long as u use them against slow targets they work fine. EBC ammo is not a huge problem so long as you have factories to churn out the ammo as a large wing can eat through stores faster than you might think. Energy is an issue on the falcon hauler because that fighter has a poor generator and is meant to use ammo based weapons.

As far as OOS combat, I'm not sure how well it fares. From what I understand, equipping both energy and ammo based weapons will cause only the ammo based to fire in OOS combat. Once ammo runs out, nothing fires since only ammo base seem to fire when there is a combination. I'm not sure how fast OOS chews through ammo. Also I do believe cheaper fighters work better OOS since energy isn't factored and the nature of combat deals damage in large clumps so usually anything getting fired at gets destroyed.

note: When i say OOS, I refer to non-monitored combat using the 30 or so second combat turns as opposed to the shorter 5 or so second turns when you're watching it on the map.

[Catra]

If you're gonne go the RE route, you should use Falcon Sentinels (400 MJ shields on a relatively cheap fighter? Yes please). Advanced perseus (100 MJ shields and ~200 m/s) Venti (10 forward guns, 100 MJ shields 195 m/s) Medusa Prototype (Firestorm Torpedo compatability)

The Split Scorpion line of ships isn't that bad either, only M4 with HEPT compatability. Split Asp is also nice, PBE (and HEPT) compatability.

[kurush]

If you have a poltergeist missile fab or two, give terran fighters a try. Set missile fire ratio to >= 50% and watch the show.

[deca.death]

If you have a poltergeist missile fab or two, give terran fighters a try. Set missile fire ratio to >= 50% and watch the show.

I'll second that. Terran fighters are the menace. I use cutlasses with 30% missile chance and full load of Poltergeists. Tough, fairly fast, survivable and effective. My deca.cefas with their 8xMAML forward guns kill everything almost too fast but do get killed on occasion.

[A5PECT]

How large are we talking here?

Anything more than 10 fighters is better off consisting of M4's. Cheap and easy to replace. Load them all with Silkworms and Wasps, then set their fire probabilities through the roof.

If you're going for a small wing (I'm thinking Griffon, Deimos, or Shrike-based), then the above suggestions are good. If you have the necessary infrastructure and funds, nothing really beats a squadron of eight Cutlasses.

[deca.death]

How large are we talking here?

My experience does come from small/utility carriers I'll admit. When it's question of bang for buck ratio then some M4 ships are just unsurpassed. It's a fact. But sometimes money is just not an issue. Most of people use their carriers sparingly, they are powerful but pain to equip and clumsy to use. Few of carriers are tops that most people will equip. In that case (and in a case of a stable and large credit income) I would advise toughest/more expensive ships. Teladi fighters are fine but too slow for my taste. That's where the Terrans kick in. They have power and shielding and do not sacrifice the speed. If you plan to USE you carriers, then initial investment is well worth of 10X less frequent ship refilling, IMHO.

[Catra]

If you have a poltergeist missile fab or two, give terran fighters a try. Set missile fire ratio to >= 50% and watch the show.

+1.

What I usually do is assign the PG spam to the Sabres, and have the M3 do Spectre spam.

[MarvinTheMartian]

Medusa Prototype (Firestorm Torpedo compatability)

The Medusa Prototype (once you've obtained it via the Poisoned Paranid start or Duke's Buccaneers reward) as well as being the only carrier-dockable fighter able to launch the Firestorm is also the only one that can fire Hornets which might be (slightly) better suited in a dog fight, the 1,000,000 damage and 1km blast radius of the Firestorm can erase several Medusa proto's at once if they're in range when it detonates or worse is shot as it launches. Neither is a fast missile which increases the chances of it being shot down before impact on its intended target.

The real win for the Medusa Prototype is the Typhoon missile, again, the only carrier-dockable fighter able to fire it and being swarm it has 8 warheads of 30,000 damage each for a total damage of 240,000 and it's faster with negligible blast radius making it pretty safe to use even in close-quarters combat.

You did mention attacking capitals, sadly I really doubt the AI will use high yield missiles wisely against a capital and lower yield are pointless but the Typhoon fills that void nicely.

Otherwise, if you want to spam fighters and missiles (or don't have access to the MP yet) then most M3s will do, you can use Silkworms if you like however I prefer wasps or better still Thunderbolts for best balance of damage and risk of friendly fire, all from a mass-produced PRG wielding Solano (M4), Tempest missile is also worth a note as it will reacquire a target if the first is destroyed.

[kurush]

Was it actually firestorm or typhoon? Typhoon would be better than both firestorm or hornet. Firestorm fired at a wrong time would definitely end your wing quickly
Poltergeist missile spam is probably the best because they re-target.

[MarvinTheMartian]

Would Tornados be useful for ships set to attack capitals, or would they just waste them?

Missed that. Tornadoes, according to the encyclopaedia, are dumbfire which might not be too bad against a slow capital but useless if engaging fighter en route. I'd still go for the Typhoon for general purpose and as much as I'd love a squadron of Firestorm launching MPs if you really want to harm a capital then an M8 is a good investment.

[Catra]

The Medusa Prototype (once you've obtained it via the Poisoned Paranid start or Duke's Buccaneers reward) as well as being the only carrier-dockable fighter able to launch the Firestorm is also the only one that can fire Hornets which might be (slightly) better suited in a dog fight, the 1,000,000 damage and 1km blast radius of the Firestorm can erase several Medusa proto's at once if they're in range when it detonates or worse is shot as it launches. Neither is a fast missile which increases the chances of it being shot down before impact on its intended target.

Yeeeeah, brought it up as a suggestion as a cheaper alternative to M8s and M7Ms for capital ship / corvette elimination. Of course they shouldn't hang around if fighters get close, but then again you should have some escorts(placed quite abit ahead of the Medusas) so that enemy fighters don't get close.

[quoteYou did mention attacking capitals, sadly I really doubt the AI will use high yield missiles wisely against a capital and lower yield are pointless but the Typhoon fills that void nicely.][/quote]

I really don't quite understand you here...

AI does the same thing with everything: lock on and fire when within range when the dicesays so and refire timer is at 0.

Plus you imply that you don't know about how yields, so how exactly do you know there's a void to be filled in the first place?

Missed that. Tornadoes, according to the encyclopaedia, are dumbfire which might not be too bad against a slow capital but useless if engaging fighter en route. I'd still go for the Typhoon for general purpose and as much as I'd love a squadron of Firestorm launching MPs if you really want to harm a capital then an M8 is a good investment.

FS and Tornadoes are really much better at the job than you think / make it seem .......

[MarvinTheMartian]

Rather than get into a quote-to-quote with you Catra, I'll have another go at explaining my post above.

1. I think the MP is an awesome ship given its unique position as the only carrier-dockable fighter that can launch high-yield missiles

2. I think in the hands of the AI engaging a capital ship the Typhoon missile, with its high combined yield, good speed and small blast radius fills the gap between a low yield missile that's not going to make a real dent and a high yield missile that can easily blow up in your face.

3. While the AI might initially engage a capital ship with missiles at distance, it will continue to close to weapons range and continue to launch missiles increasing the risk (more so when the refire is 2s) of premature detonation and being caught in the blast, therefore, I suggest that the AI may not use high yield missiles wisely

4. Tornadoes can be effective against slow moving targets such as capitals despite being dumbfire but will not be effective against fighters it may encounter on its way to said target. I am suggesting that the Typhoon is a good compromise as a general purpose missile when the primary is a capital ship.

5. My intention was to add to the discussion and was not contradicting your contribution.

[Bill Huntington]

Panzerman, if you want an M3 for the wars, I have made the Scimitar my choice, with the simple and effective EMPC for weapons. The Scim is fast, tough with good shields, and relatively cheap. I only use 4 or 5 EMPC so they don't run down. With 8 or 10 in a wing, they chew through M3 or M6 opponents efficiently, and even bigger targets if necessary. When it is all over, they have few losses.

I used a Tokyo with Scims as a fireman when I did a few Xenon sector invasions. When I invaded Xenon Core 023, there were just too many Xenon for my M2s, so I used the Toyyo. When it was almost overwhelming, I turned all the Scims loose, with the command Attack all Enemies. This means that each M3 found its own individual target. This tied up all the Xenon, big and smaller, but exposed them to more danger than normal wing combat. Meanwhile the M2s destroyed the big targets one by one, until done. When it was all over, two Nova Raider wings lost 50%. One Skate wing was wiped out, 100%. 4 Scim wings lost 3 fighters total! So the Scims are tough. The extra shielding and speed makes the difference.

They can be outfitted in Moon Sector very efficiently.

I hope this helps.

[deca.death]

Panzerman, if you want an M3 for the wars, I have made the Scimitar my choice, with the simple and effective EMPC for weapons. The Scim is fast, tough with good shields, and relatively cheap. I only use 4 or 5 EMPC so they don't run down.

I don't think this is necessary, scimitar can hold full frontal bank without problems, it's remarkably undemanding weapon.

And if I might add everything said about scimitar is true, it's fast and resilient fighter, but if you are in a billionaire club, go for cutlass. Like every M3+ she is totally economically unjustified (it costs much more then it's worth, when compared to scimitar, 1.4 vs 5 million for maybe 30-40% more combat efficiency) but it rocks. Scimitar has no turrets while cutlass has two double EEMPC turrets that shoot all over non stop. Plus it's not nearly as slow as other heavy shielded M3+ (173m/s). You just add large cargo bay for keeping all those poltergeists and you've got yourself killing machine. Terran fighters have many good sides but Poltergeist is maybe best. Cheap low yield swarm retagetable-able missile. It's good as it sounds, really.

[dholmstr]

Actually I think the biggest problem (for every carrier based setup) is the need to refill lost fighters. In most cases a good M3 will do the trick and M4 for some light fighting (other fighters up to M6). The terrans have such a nice and good place, the Moon, where you pretty much get 10 fighters with everythig you need and 2 guns. Quick and easy and if money isn't an option you go for the big Cutless. They are slow'ish but at 173m/s the AI at least doesn't do much kamikaze runs like it does with fighters when going 250+ (this is just my observation). Huge shields and the so easy fire/forget poltergeist is a blessing. Mostly the AI shoots at the wrong time anyways .

I do use Scimitars also, the 6 empc upfront are really good, don't be fooled by the stats alone. They might have problems with faster fighters but who cares when you have poltergeist .

The CW fighters all have thier cons/pros so it's pretty much up to you. As for missiles on CW fighters, go with one standard. Easy to restock and you might have you're own factory producing in large numbers. A medium missile (30-100k) is better than the bigbang things (Firestorms) couse you can have more of them, shoot more of them and not having to risk the whole wing with them. You'll loose fighters enough, no need to do it by yourself

[Infekted]

I agree with the full load out of EMPCs on the scimitar. It has more than enough energy to keep firing them all for ages.
The thing that makes me love the scimitar more than its stats suggest is that its firing pattern makes it disgustingly accurate. All six guns fire down exactly the same path, no spread whatsoever.

Even as a member of the "billionaire's club" I prefer scimitars over cutlasses. I'd rather take two carriers full of them than one carrier full of cutlasses..

You can also outfit them easily in mars, as well as the moon. Basically get them from whichever has the L varient in stock.