TC Puzzle: Achieving without raising trade or fight rank

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glenmcd
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TC Puzzle: Achieving without raising trade or fight rank

Post by glenmcd » Sun, 3. Jul 11, 10:24

In this forum you'll find some excellent guides for how to play TC. This isn't one of them :) It's a simple puzzle, with a solution that may not be so obvious. Use Poisoned paranid start as it's already hard and has a very specific initial goal (to get your reward for the game start mission) which must be completed in a specific time. Here's the restrictions for the puzzle:
1. You start with trade rank "Opportunist". Trade all you want, but at no time must your trade rank increase.
2. You start with fight rank "Harmless". At no time must this increase.
3. You must complete the initial mission.
4. At the time you complete the mission, you must have the highest notoriety possible with at least one race.
5. No damaging, destroying or capping other ships by any of your ships.
6. No think missions
7. No starting any main or corporation plots.
8. No mining
9. No claiming any abandoned ships
10. No collecting floating wares of any type
11. No taxi/courier/toxic waste type missions
12. No escort missions
13. No mods/scripts required. If you want to use performance enhancing mods (low poly asteroids, Litcubes follow replacement etc) that's fine.

Following is what I had in mind originally:
Spoiler
Show
A combination of a four things, each relying on another except #1. Some things are great for raising rep but don't make money. Others make money but need the rep first. Others still both make money and raise rep, but you don't have what you really need at game start to do them.

STEP 1: You will need to accept one or more missions of type defend/protect/patrol position/station/sector. For this you don't need credits and if you can accept the mission, then you've got sufficient notoriety to complete it. This mission is critical to raising your notoriety sufficiently to get the resources you need for step (2), which comes down to notoriety enough to buy an M5 from the shipyard. If working a Split sector, this means "Friend". As you are entering a sector, if you don't see missions of that type, you can either try a different sector or re-enter the sector, or SETA until one is offered. These are spawned regularly so it shouldn't take you long to find one or more. If the difficulty setting is "average" or above, you'll need only one of them. Accept one or more of these missions but make no attempt to kill. The enemies will sooner or later ram themselves into a station, or the local military ships will kill them. At minimum fight rank this can happen in less than a minute, but more often several minutes.

STEP 2: Buy a cheap, fast M5. To purchase a ship you will need credits. Sell your shields and weapons at an Equipment Dock. You won't need these to satisfy the puzzle and for a Poisoned Paranid start, it will be barely enough to buy a Jaguar S, as well as having enough cash over to succeed with step (3). So don't outfit it with anything it doesn't need. And truly you don't need anything but the bare ship. For the small cost you might as well keep the 1MJ shield, and it's nice to increase speed. Transfer the upgrades from Demeter Hauler to Jaguar (SETA, boost extension etc). As you already have sufficient notoriety and credits to do so, you could buy a used M5 rather than a new one at shipyard. Ignore hull condition and buy on ship type and cost alone. It takes only seconds to fully repair any M5. Credits saved in this step (even 1K) can result in less time taken for the next step.

STEP 3: This one requires the credits from selling your original shields/weapons, and the M5 purchased in step (2). Its purpose is to increase your notoriety, which is needed for step (4). At completion of this step you will sell your TS, which will provide the credits you need for step (4). It will give you maximum notoriety with local race extremely quickly. When there's a station that is getting very low in resources (like 5 percent or less), they will very often spawn a special mission that requires you to supply that resource. So this is one of those very rare generic missions that is semi-predictable, rather than 100% random. Once this starts, it will keep spawning such missions until either NPCs supply the ware, or you accept one of these missions. Once you do, NPCs won't supply until such time that the mission finishes. When you see this situation about to happen, fill your TS with as much of that ware as you can afford and dock it at that station. The key to retaining minimum trade rank is to never pay less than average price and never sell for more than average price. That is normally easy to achieve. You also need to arrange yourself to be in your M5 at the nearest gate. This is why it's better if the station is within comms distance (25KM) to a gate. In Patriarchs Conclusion, there are several of these. Heavy Shields is the best one. It is usually short of Raster Oil, and like any other can run out of ECs. Entering the East gate, you are also within comms distance to chelt space aquarium beta and the shipyard, which will assist step (4). Once the station gets into this situation, it may spawn up to 3 (maybe 4) of these missions each time you enter the sector, or just at any time during your stay in a sector. Rarely will it not spawn at least one. Fly out of sector and immediately back in, check for more of these missions and accept all. Don't waste time. Do this until either the most urgent mission that you've accepted is close to timing out, or you've already accepted 18 of them. In a Jaguar Raider, you can travel at 596 m/sec. That's 35 km/minute. If you hopefully get a station within comms range (25km), you can get there in less than a minute game time. Add maybe 10 to 15 seconds to (manually) dock, plus up to 10 seconds for the mission director to notice that you're ready to hand the wares over. So 2 minutes to be safe. Continue to fly out/in gate and accept up to 18 of these. Trigger another, but don't accept it immediately. Fly directly to station and dock, then swap into your TS. Within 10 or so seconds, all missions will complete and your notoriety should raise from Friend to maybe 2 - 3 levels up in the space of 20 seconds or so. To raise notoriety to maximum, repeat this step. To do so, wait until you have completed the missions that you accepted, and then immediately accept another from same station, of same type for same resource. Remember you left one still on offer? As soon as you do this, you'll again get the "exclusive" for supplying this resource. As your trade rank is still minimum, each mission offer will require only 1 - 10 units of the ware. So even with 18 of these missions, that's hardly enough to get the station producing again, and before long it will be spawning more of the same mission for same resource. If the ware happens to be ECs, it will almost always spawn these again immediately. Thus, your hold on the station is ongoing, providing that you don't delay between mission completion and accepting of at least one more. If you make a mistake in any way, the whole thing suddenly goes out of reach. Even with the trade rank increase that can happen by selling one EC (yes one!) for near maximum price, the number of units of ware required in spawned missions will severely limit the number of these missions you can accept, due both to insufficient cash on hand, and not having sufficient cargobay space to satisfy 18 of these missions. It's not practical to do multiple freight runs. As you need to purchase for average price or more, the supplying stations will have half or less of max quantity of this product. So everything works against you. To satisfy the puzzle, repeat until you have max Splt notoriety. It won't take long. Once you achieve this, sell your TS. If you still have wares in your TS, either sell them for average price or less to a station, or leave them in the TS and you'll be paid minimum price for them as the TS is being sold. Either way your trade rank won't increase.

STEP 4: As your reputation is now maximum with the local race, buy used ship offers will be spawning regularly. This will still happen with minimum trade and fight ranks. These will include M3+ and M6 ships, which can provide 1M+ profit per ship and as high as 6M+ profit. You can partially overlap step (4) with step (3) dependant on cash on hand. Make your purchase decision based on ship type and price and not by hull condition or speed. Almost every ship with hull <50% is a bargain, while almost every ship with 100% hull will be a loss. There are exceptions. Check sectors that that either have a shipyard, or adjoin one. Look for used ships in the space around gates and even behind them. The longer it takes to fly ships to the shipyard, the longer the time you will have to wait to have the cash to buy more. If you buy ships at the shipyard itself, it's much better again. Although you can profit from trading ships without doing repairs, the profits you make if you fully repair all hulls will roughly double. As your ability to purchase larger ships depends on profits from previous, it's important to maximise profit from each ship in order to complete the puzzle in shorter time. To do this in an efficient way, command all purchased ships to fly to one position between a shipyard and the closest station that sells SETA's. When you need to sell, fly to your bunch of used ships, eject yourself and eject a SETA from one of the ships (last choice being your personal M5). Pickup the SETA in your spacesuit, aim at each ship in turn and hold down left-control and J keys at same time. In seconds you can fully repair anything up to a TS. Given a minute or two you can do the M6s and large TSs. When all ships are fully repaired, command them to the shipyard, get back in your M5, fly to the TP/EQd and purchase another SETA if you were forced to eject it from this ship. Repeat step (4) as required to complete the Poisoned Paranid initial mission. Success!
Both the puzzle and solution have had an overhaul, thanks to several players below for their excellent suggestions.
Last edited by glenmcd on Wed, 6. Jul 11, 21:06, edited 4 times in total.

meremale
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Post by meremale » Sun, 3. Jul 11, 12:59

I can only think of 2 options.

1. Defend station mission
Let the AI patrols finish these

2. Courier Missions

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perkint
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Post by perkint » Sun, 3. Jul 11, 13:09

Asteroid scans and second hand ships could be enough to get the cash and also raise your rank enough. Maybe...

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Post by Triaxx2 » Mon, 4. Jul 11, 02:16

Asteroids are out, (Think missions), so are follow missions.

Second hand might work, but unless you sell the ship you start in, there's no way to get seed capital. And you can't do that because it might raise trade rank.

Sounds basically impossible since there's no way to earn money.

Challenge does not mean impossible.
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Post by Painman » Mon, 4. Jul 11, 02:39

As far as I've noticed, secondhand ships for sale don't even appear until you're Petty Vendor rank anyway.

If you don't count them as "taxi" missions, you could perform passenger and military transports. Officially, they're trade missions. Also, "radioactive waste courier" and what-not missions.
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Post by pjknibbs » Mon, 4. Jul 11, 13:11

Triaxx2 wrote: Sounds basically impossible since there's no way to earn money.

Challenge does not mean impossible.
I agree with this--there's a difference between a difficult challenge and putting so many restrictions in place that it's effectively impossible to achieve. Asteroid scan mission rewards depend on trade rank, so there's no way you could use those--bear in mind here that you have to earn more than 300,000 credits an hour in this start in order to achieve the target!

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Post by meremale » Mon, 4. Jul 11, 14:08

Your solution states that you used build missions, but the rules prohibit this.

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Post by EmperorJon » Mon, 4. Jul 11, 15:05

I must agree this is quite frankly... stupid. It's like the guy who tried to run a minecraft competition where you had to 'survive' 30 days without making or breaking anything.

Plus yes, you used build missions.

Also, "No use of major exploits, known or new". I'd say accepting tons combat missions, ignoring the enemy, and still getting paid is basically exploity. This isn't a challenge, this is basically an impossible-ish waste of time.
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Post by dillpickle » Mon, 4. Jul 11, 15:59

EmperorJon wrote:Also, "No use of major exploits, known or new". I'd say accepting tons combat missions, ignoring the enemy, and still getting paid is basically exploity. This isn't a challenge, this is basically an impossible-ish waste of time.
I'd say flying in and out of a sector to generate 20 or so identical missions for the same station to be an exploit as well...

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Post by glenmcd » Tue, 5. Jul 11, 06:44

pjknibbs wrote:
Triaxx2 wrote: Sounds basically impossible since there's no way to earn money.

Challenge does not mean impossible.
I agree with this--there's a difference between a difficult challenge and putting so many restrictions in place that it's effectively impossible to achieve. Asteroid scan mission rewards depend on trade rank, so there's no way you could use those--bear in mind here that you have to earn more than 300,000 credits an hour in this start in order to achieve the target!
I question the appropriateness of the use of any moderator and/or site admin logins for the purpose of standard game discussion, S&M etc. As a moderator or site admin, your word must be followed by all posters here else face certain consequences. The accuracy of your post isn't the main issue here. Whatever an admin/moderator says publicly makes an impression on others, and if you do screw up, then it's far better to do so from a normal login that isn't associated in any way with site admin or moderation. That way you get (and rightfully so) to receive the same public chastising/humiliation/banning that others receive when they screw up, depending on severity.

Regarding your actual post: "Challenge". Not something mentioned by me, edit or no edit. "Puzzle" - yes. A puzzle involves thinking. Challenge necessitates doing.
Like you can think about what would happen if you drove in town at 200KPH without actually doing it, and those interested enough can discuss that with you. Consider what would happen etc. You might get to understand cars better, or roads, or police response or something else. One possible outcome from this is the use of small roundabouts at intersections to make it near impossible for anyone to drive at 200KPH through those intersections, without adversely effecting your normal drivers. If someone said that you'd be stupid for actually doing 200KPH through town in real life they'd be perfectly correct. To fill up a thread with such comments though when there never was a suggestion of doing except perhaps for the purpose of solving a puzzle isn't exactly the sort of thing that should be encouraged in a forum, surely! But by adding to it and indeed effectively leading it, you have done precisely this.
"Impossible": I actually completed what I described (not building) well before I created this thread. I did so twice. And no it didn't take long at all. In fact amazingly quick. If desired I can supply a vanilla save of the achievement and done so in less than 3 flying hours. I think actually achieving something even just once totally invalidates any opinion of "impossible", whether it's backed up by attempts or not. All it takes in this instance is the combination of 2 mission types. Anything else is exploration (like exploring what doing build missions in conjuction would do). As for the argument that doing so in normal play is exploitive, of course it is. But it doesn't contain exploits in themselves. The only exploit here is focussing totally on particular mission types and sectors, but doing so is also necessary to retain some sort of focus so that a thread is meaningful. I'm not interested in telling anyone how they should play, nor am I interested in hearing anyone tell me how I should play. I am interested to get to know TC better, which may well result in me changing how I play. It's my choice as it is every other players and nothing will ever change that.

Had you used a standard login that was in no was associated with site admin, you would receive the same responses that anyone else would, as deserved, both from players and from admin as appropriate. Additionally, subsequent posts by others would not tend to follow your line of thinking (again right or wrong), bolstered not because of how well founded, compelling, correct or useful their point may be, but because they are guaranteed not be chastised/humiliated/banned for doing so. Doing so would necessitate also chastising/humiliating/banning an admin and that's something that tends not to happen.

You may or may not be in a position to bring about changes in this regard to the Egosoft forums. Ultimately this may not matter. If I'm right in my argument that use of moderator/admin logins should be reserved for actual moderator / admin duties then the appropriate changes will take place, once those that have the authority to do so come to appreciate the benefits of such a change. I believe they are compelling and if I'm right, will happen regardless of whether I'm ever associated with the change or not. And I couldn't care less whether they are or not. If you or any other admin wishes to join in with discussions I don't personally see a problem with this if it's done so without any underlying association with higher authority, and this can only happen with a seperate, standard login that in no way ever gets associated with any duties here. If it does, then it needs immediate replacement.

Finally pjknibbs, this is not a personal attack. Something needs to be changed and you just happen to have supplied a good example for me to make my point.

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Post by ancienthighway » Tue, 5. Jul 11, 07:47

Wow. Just Wow.

In the time I've been around this forum, I've never seen any instance of a site admin or moderator abuse their position by bullying people to agree with them and follow their word as gospel.

The role of admins and moderators is to ensure the forum rules are followed, in this case, the rules here.

Posts I've seen these individuals make beyond that are a) correcting misinformation from a user (and I am one of those), or b) expressing their opinion. Most people can tell the difference between those and the big boot stomping the ground. Many, maybe even most of the moderators, are people like you and me. Fans of the game. They've been recognized by Egosoft and knowledgeable fans that can help others in addition to applying the boot when need be.

You little puzzle is built with a number of restrictions on what cannot be done. Yet, your solution violates one of those constraints in my opinion, and judging from the other posts, a number of other people's opinions.
14. No use of major exploits, known or new
a) Using a sector's defense forces to clear all the enemies in these combat missions you accept if very exploitative.
b) Using gate jumping to double up, and more, delivery missions that you fulfill with one ship is also an exploit.
Those to exploits are your solution to your puzzle. What happens when you play by your rules and not use those exploits? It pretty much becomes a puzzle that's impossible to solve within the time frame of recovering the HV. Especially because you can no longer use the combat missions or else your Fight rank increases.

Of course you could claim you don't consider those methods you use to be exploits, in which case, others can use methods that they don't consider to be exploits, whether you do or not.

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Post by glenmcd » Tue, 5. Jul 11, 09:55

ancienthighway, you make a number of compelling points that are difficult to disagree with. The main point I made above was that having one login that serves two purposes where the difference isn't exactly stated and that is left to interpretation by each and every forum user, yet with consequences that include banning, is in no way ideal. I do agree that the quality of the posts, the often lengthy consideration that goes into each and every post by virtually all of the admins here, are indeed examplary. That in no way changes my contention that it is not an ideal situation, can be changed and consideration to do so should be given. On the flip side, is there actually any problems or disadvantages for any person, of having the seperate logins? The only difference I can see is that a "normal" post by an admin will in most cases be assumed to be coming from someone that has "seen it all" and thus is less likely to be incorrect or unfounded than posts from others. Is that an advantage? There is no need for this. If you command respect in your knowledge of the game then it should be because of the solidity of the foundations that your post is built upon and not your badge. If the best researchers / posters need a badget then there's certainly no need to associate it with administrating a forum. A good admin requires high integrity and diplomacy, while the other requires a lot of dedication to exploring the game itself, research methods and an enquiring mind. It's not like it hasn't been done and proven in the past. Back when TFC was king, admins all used the one login, and exposing personal ID was not allowed. Site owners were the only ones that knew which admin said and did what. I know because I was one. If you saw an admin login then you knew what you were dealing with, but not who. Who isn't important, but following the rules of the establishment are. They don't need to be interpreted differently depending on which person is enforcing them.

You make compelling points about the puzzle solution not following its own rules and in a way that is both easy to understand without taking offence. Exploits have always been something of a personal opinion and not normally something that is universally accepted and avoided in actual play. There's a promising mod available that makes a huge point of "no cheats involved". And that's normally a good thing for a mod. But in actual practise, the author uses modified TLs with >1,000,000 cargobay spaces. Why? Because he admits that he can't actually play the game without such a modification. Due to how the mod needs to be used, I can see why. I see 1M cargospaces as an exploit and so don't use the mod even though it looks really promising. Don't even go looking for an ID or mod name here. It's not the point. The point is that exploits are opinion oriented, and the way that I've come across with one of the 2 critical missions (accepting multiple missions of same trade type from a station that can be predicted will spawn them) is obviously by itself exploitive in the minds of many people, and this should never be invalidated. Not accepting the missions, but by refusing others. That doesn't mean that the result cannot be gained in some other way. For example, while you fly around a sector at SETAx10 doing other things, a station in desperate need for resources will keep spawning missions to achieve this. All that gate punching achieves is to ignore everything else and maintain focus. If the station spawned 2 identical missions at same time, is accept both instead of just one an exploit? What if it spawned 4 at once (yes I have seen it). If your TS hasn't quite got to the station yet with its load of ECs and more such missions spawn at same station, is accepting more of these missions while still in sector an exploit? What if the TS had arrived but you were busy on another mission at the time the second batch of missions spawned? What if you accepted and completed a dozen other missions in same sector - or other sectors - in between? There's a really, really fine line here that I'm trying to ride between showing what happens in the game when you do XYZ, and merely saying something that could only be interpreted as exposing an exploit. I can't make a point without some sort of focus. The easiest way of getting the point across intact is to have such a focus. Perhaps one cannot be done without also achieving the other. Hey, if you come to the conclusion that flying through a Xenon sector with only one gate in view to the absolute fartherest asteroid and then flying behind it even when there's obviously nothing there is stupid, then I guess you'll never find an abandoned Falcon Sentinel will you? I mean, what would be the point? An asteroid can be scanned, broken up or have a mine built on it. Please don't call me stupid for trying things, for sharing things, and for using unusual exploration methods. Some people appreciate the sharing of new information and because they've done research themselves, accept that you may have to go through some weird play in order to get to the facts. Some of these will be new even to Egosoft. As Deca.death mentioned in another thread, why the hell would you fly your ship straight into a wall? Well as it turns out, the wall was visible but not solid, and there's a bunch of fun to be had on the other side of this wall.

So in summary in regard to the puzzle, I do accept the solution as being interpreted as non conformant by some or even most (or all). I just hope that someone, whether they have posted here already or not, got something out of it. The thing I got (before the original post) was knowledge of why and when the game spawns certain mission types. Had I not focussed on them, I would never have known. The Falcon Sentinel was my very first abandoned ship claim in TC btw :)

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Post by pjknibbs » Tue, 5. Jul 11, 13:42

It should be extremely clear when I am making a post with my moderator hat on--it will usually include the word "warning" or "banned", or will be a request to calm down the flames before one of the other words gets used. Any other post I make is an opinion and should be treated as such.

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Post by glenmcd » Tue, 5. Jul 11, 14:05

Painman wrote:As far as I've noticed, secondhand ships for sale don't even appear until you're Petty Vendor rank anyway.
Indeed they do! But I too have noticed that the offers don't always commence as soon as you have reached the required notoriety, which with Split race is "Friend", to get access to M5s and TPs. Perhaps the limit is actually between Friend and Comrade, using the numeric system. But if so, that doesn't equate with your ship access rights at the shipyard. If I'm Friend 0%, that's good enough to get me a Jaguar or Iguana. Friend 99% is not high enough for an M4 but Comrade 0% is. If there's something else again involved here I have no idea what it is.

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Post by inkalsecurity » Wed, 6. Jul 11, 12:59

I really like this puzzle, but I think you break your own rules not only by building, as others pointed out, but also by repairing ships ("5. No shots fired from you or any of your ships." - yet you fire shots of repair laser)

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