[X3:TC] M7M Supply Complex

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Darkhymn
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[X3:TC] M7M Supply Complex

Post by Darkhymn » Fri, 30. Sep 11, 04:47

I've decided to put together a Hammer Torpedo and Flail Missile complex in Avarice (Unknown Sector 8,8 ). Going on what I gather is actually a fairly conservative five of each fab, I've come up with this.

I have a couple of questions for players with more experience with both M7Ms and large closed loop complexes.

First, will the complex linked above do the job? I'm up to 30 stations and roughly 85 million in initial investment. If I need a larger complex, I will need to consider relocating to a higher yield sector, so I'd like to know now.

Second, according to that calculator, the ore yield comes to exactly the complex's total consumption, which seems... convenient. Should I tack on a smaller mine just to be sure, or have I conveniently picked the perfect rock for the job?

Third, is there an effective method for automating the stockpiling process? I'm the inattentive type, and if I have to micromanage this complex in order to keep it producing, I will wind up docking my (as yet uncapped) Ares more than I would like.

I know much of this has probably been covered elsewhere in the forums, but the board search function is turning up very little, and Google is not faring much better. I've found a couple of links to similar complexes, but varying opinions on the size, and very little coverage of the logistical aspect.

I feel like I had another question, but I've gone and forgotten.

Anyway, any advice or opinions would be much appreciated :)

Infekted
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Post by Infekted » Fri, 30. Sep 11, 09:51

That will be enough for casual use, but your M7M will be docked quite a lot of the time. If you can afford it, I would recommend doubling it's capacity.
If you do go with the linked plex, you could drop one L sized cahoona/argnu and replace them with an M sized.

You've chosen a 50 ore rock. Which does indeed give a very nicely rounded output. You can rely on the calculator being accurate. If you are in the situation where you are ever so slightly under supplying Ore, it'd probly be better to attach a CAG to buy in the extra.

For stock piling use CLS2. Get a nice large TS, give it the following waypoints:
Load Hammers to 50% cargo
Load Flails to 50% cargo.
Supply conditions:
Min transfer amount for collection 0%

You can also park a TL outside and have the above CLS ship also set to unload into it, but a decent sized TS should provide enough storage for a small plex.

In addition, if for example you spend long periods without using your missile supply. What will happen is this:
Your storage will fill up. Then the complex will fill full of product. Then it will begin stock piling resources and intermediates. In this case, energy, ore, silicon, crystal and cahoonas.
If you for starters go into admin and change all the resources to inters, then set up a CAG or two to sell all inters beyond say 30% capacity. They will act as an automatic "over flow", should your complex fill up from lack of use.
Due to the fact you have an over supply of certain wares, I think it'd be well worth your time to set this up anyway.

Darkhymn
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Post by Darkhymn » Fri, 30. Sep 11, 18:35

Thanks for the detailed response. I'll have to take a moment tonight and install the bonus package and try to scout out a sector with the resources to support a larger complex. I'll probably edit this post when I have more time.

Edit for spelling.

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Post by Triaxx2 » Fri, 30. Sep 11, 21:38

Nuklear-Slug managed to exploit the Manual Trade Run Command with Falcon Haulers by having them buy missiles from his complex, and sell them to his TL, and the money was ending up back in his account.

Of course A) he had time and cash to spare, and B) he was dedicated in a special and unique sort of way. (He was nuts ;)) Actually, he just had the entire system carefully balanced against itself so that he was at the bottom rung of a complex system of trades and balances so that there was always money moving, but at the end it was pouring out of his account and back in. I understand it, but it's head ache inducing enough that I don't dare try and duplicate it.
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Darkhymn
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Post by Darkhymn » Sat, 1. Oct 11, 00:05

Triaxx2 wrote:Nuklear-Slug managed to exploit the Manual Trade Run Command with Falcon Haulers by having them buy missiles from his complex, and sell them to his TL, and the money was ending up back in his account.

Of course A) he had time and cash to spare, and B) he was dedicated in a special and unique sort of way. (He was nuts ;)) Actually, he just had the entire system carefully balanced against itself so that he was at the bottom rung of a complex system of trades and balances so that there was always money moving, but at the end it was pouring out of his account and back in. I understand it, but it's head ache inducing enough that I don't dare try and duplicate it.
Sounds like I'll stick with the CLS! :lol:
I'm about to start trying to build this nightmare now. Honestly, I've always hated complex building and management. To the point that in the past I've just downloaded Cycrow's cheats and bypassed the need for the complex in the first place :oops: I'm trying an honest playthrough this time (and loving it, by the way). This is the first time since I've owned X3 that I've found myself procrastinating lol. Every good sandbox has its tedium, I suppose :)

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Post by deca.death » Sat, 1. Oct 11, 00:53

Infekted wrote:That will be enough for casual use, but your M7M will be docked quite a lot of the time. If you can afford it, I would recommend doubling it's capacity.
10 flail and 10 hammer fabs? He will hardly manage use that up no matter how often would he board. I would even recommend somewhat smaller factory. 3+3 or 4+4 would be more then enough if you are in no hurry to board and you don't plan extensively using M7M in combat.

But if you want to sell missiles in retail, then it's OK to invest in more fabs. Good money.
For stock piling use CLS2. Get a nice large TS, give it the following waypoints:
Load Hammers to 50% cargo
Load Flails to 50% cargo.
HAmmers would take much more place then flails. You could just set 'maximum cargospace' for both missiles. It works that way too, it takes until it can.
If you for starters go into admin and change all the resources to inters, then set up a CAG or two to sell all inters beyond say 30% capacity. They will act as an automatic "over flow", should your complex fill up from lack of use.
This should never happen. Selling missiles is far more profitable then selling resources. M5 retail seller and all is done. Even filling TS husk and selling it filled with missiles /minimum price hands you nice profit.

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Post by Darkhymn » Sat, 1. Oct 11, 01:43

My finances are pretty secure at the moment. I have just upwards of 400 million in liquid assets, so erring on the side of overproduction won't hurt me in the short run, and can only help in the long run.
I'm sticking with the complex I linked above, with the small modification of a set of medium food fabs, as Infekted suggested. Avarice lacks the silicon to support a significantly larger standalone complex, and it's really the only sector that fits my needs conveniently. I base myself in Hatikvah's, as I enjoy the high traffic, convenient pirate base, and direct connection to a corridor of lightly defended Paranid sectors :twisted: Avarice is nearby, low traffic, and spacious.
You could just set 'maximum cargospace' for both missiles. It works that way too, it takes until it can.
This is nice to know. I'll have a Hercules parked to receive the missiles, so I rather like the thought of the ship just taking until it's full and going on its way.
This should never happen.
Why not? I'll be overproducing some goods in significant quantities (silicon, crystals, and ecells). Is there a logistical reason to keep overstocked intermediates that I'm missing? (Honest question)

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Post by Triaxx2 » Sat, 1. Oct 11, 03:03

Because it's frankly a bloody nuisance to balance the sell capacities with what you still need for production. For example if you sell too many crystals, you'll stall out your SPP, and the CLS will keep selling until there are no more left.

Too much Silicon stalls the crystals... And so on. It's easier to separate silicon/crystal production into a dedicated area and only ship crystals to various complexes. 1 crystal = 138 energy cells. 4/138 is quite the difference in ratio.
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Post by Darkhymn » Sat, 1. Oct 11, 06:12

So, the complex is up and running and producing at a reasonable clip. When given the order to start working, the cls took every missile in the complex immediately, and is continuing to take hammers, but it is letting flails pile up. Will it take them before the fabs shut down? Or would I be better off setting the pilot to 50/50 as Infekted suggested?

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Post by deca.death » Sat, 1. Oct 11, 09:29

Darkhymn wrote: Why not? I'll be overproducing some goods in significant quantities (silicon, crystals, and ecells). Is there a logistical reason to keep overstocked intermediates that I'm missing? (Honest question)
If you are overproducing, CAG will take care of that easily. Even with most basic /unmodified set of commands. Two things I change on CAG. Buy intermediates up to 15%, not only 10%. And set "sell products freighter cargo bay" to 101%, turning it off - that thing should be turned off by default btw, it will override your setting of "sell goods from 50% more" for example - if you want to leave something in stock for personal use.

What I'm saying that you never stop producing, your fab should work at 100% capacity all the time, weather you use all your missiles or not.

Check first link under my sig for some additional info on subject, selling missiles etc.

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Post by deca.death » Sat, 1. Oct 11, 09:40

Darkhymn wrote:So, the complex is up and running and producing at a reasonable clip. When given the order to start working, the cls took every missile in the complex immediately, and is continuing to take hammers, but it is letting flails pile up. Will it take them before the fabs shut down? Or would I be better off setting the pilot to 50/50 as Infekted suggested?
There are several ways of dealing with this situation. You could put one or even 2 super mistrals on dock, each to fill one type of missiles. They take a LONG time to fill, so you will need to check on them on rare occasions to see if they are filled. Once per week maybe. This is simple and effective solution.

Further you could empty them to some TL manually, you could sell them earning minimum price for missile (wich is not all that bad with missiles, difference between average and minimum is not so big) or you could leave them there filled for your personal use and sell the excess via M5 (details are on first link under my sig)

Or you could put CLS1 ship which would wait until factory has filled to 100%, pick up everything and go to TL to empty stuff. He would make runs pretty often, it shouldn't matter in safe sectors.

I use combination, One super mistral to store everything (I have larger plex which produces more missile types) and one smaller TS watching storage TS, when it has more of the same missile type, it transport it to TL. This way Super mistral serves as buffer - factory can stock very few items compared to TS+.

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Post by Darkhymn » Sun, 2. Oct 11, 01:34

I've set the cls to pick up whatever is at the station when it gets there and deliver to the TL. I'm actually uncertain as to how I got that result, but it is working wonderfully so no complaints.
Just boarded an Agamemnon. Used twenty odd hammers, which was fewer than expected, so I'm thinking this facility will keep me relatively well supplied. Thanks for all of the help.

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Post by Kirlack » Sun, 2. Oct 11, 02:12

I've just completed my own M7M supply complex (with a few thawks and typhoons tagged on for the rest of the fleet). The sector is pretty much maxed out for production, but it now runs 14 flail, 11 hammer, 10 typhoon and 5 thawk fabs.

what can I say, i like my missiles.... ;)

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Post by Darkhymn » Sun, 2. Oct 11, 02:52

Kirlack wrote:I've just completed my own M7M supply complex (with a few thawks and typhoons tagged on for the rest of the fleet). The sector is pretty much maxed out for production, but it now runs 14 flail, 11 hammer, 10 typhoon and 5 thawk fabs.

what can I say, i like my missiles.... ;)
Holy crap, I guess so! I'm pretty sure I would have lost all interest in X3 in the process of building a complex that big. Just the little thing I built last night pushed the limits of my patience for complex construction (I had to take breaks... a lot of them). I can only assume you plan on using it as a sector leveler?

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Post by Kirlack » Sun, 2. Oct 11, 03:13

Actually, it's primary function is to keep my 4 M7Ms (which look after my other assets), stocked up with missiles.

That way when the Boron or the Paranid come a knocking (most of my factories are funded by stealing M2s from either race :pirat: ), i've got plenty of ammo right there for when i jump into sector and order them destroyed :p

Also, the typhoons are really for my small collection of hyperions (9 now, counting my personal one).

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Post by Infekted » Mon, 3. Oct 11, 10:49

Who said anything about boarding? The capacity I was recommending was for what M7Ms are mostly for imo. Destroying sectors.
Boarding is boring and broken. I avoid it if at all possible.

I said 50% becuase of the ratio of factories. 50:50 hammer to flail. Flails take less space, but they also are produced much much faster. It evens out to be about the same. If you have the same amount of factories, you'll make roughly the same cargo capacity of each in the same time.
If you don't use 50%, if you use more of one type of missile than the other, your storage will fill up full of the missile you don't use as much.

I recommend the over flow CAGs because, for starters he has an inter over supply. Unless he has a specific destination in mind its better to sell them than let it just fill up. And secondly, if you want to effectively sell missiles you have to either do it manually (yawn) or exploit. Which some people may not want to do.

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Post by deca.death » Mon, 3. Oct 11, 15:20

Infekted wrote:Who said anything about boarding? The capacity I was recommending was for what M7Ms are mostly for imo. Destroying sectors.
Boarding is boring and broken. I avoid it if at all possible.
Say just openly that you suck at it ; ) Boarding is in my opinion most interesting part of this game, once you've get hold on it. Destroying sectors in M7M? Isn't that kind of boring? : ) I take my Tiger in and making loopings around K's, on 15% of shields. Now THAT's fun! (I'm kidding of course, I love both methods, Skirnir+Shadow especially ; )

I said 50% becuase of the ratio of factories. 50:50 hammer to flail. Flails take less space, but they also are produced much much faster. It evens out to be about the same. If you have the same amount of factories, you'll make roughly the same cargo capacity of each in the same time.
Not likely.
Hammers 4 x20 =80 volume
Flails 6 x5 =30 volume
one fab, one hour

If you don't use 50%, if you use more of one type of missile than the other, your storage will fill up full of the missile you don't use as much.
Yes, but you will avoid ship is staying with 50%+15% full and refusing to take new missiles (and still has cargo space) It depends on your priorities really.
And secondly, if you want to effectively sell missiles you have to either do it manually (yawn) or exploit. Which some people may not want to do.
That "exploit" (and I don't see nothing exploitative in it - doing legal game mechanics via legal game script) is often only way of selling certain stuff. There is another way - filling TS husk with goods and sell with ship. Minimum price on certain things (like missiles) is actually quite high - and you need to do it quite rarely.

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Post by blackfire83 » Mon, 3. Oct 11, 15:25

Kirlack wrote:Actually, it's primary function is to keep my 4 M7Ms (which look after my other assets), stocked up with missiles.

That way when the Boron or the Paranid come a knocking (most of my factories are funded by stealing M2s from either race :pirat: ), i've got plenty of ammo right there for when i jump into sector and order them destroyed :p

Also, the typhoons are really for my small collection of hyperions (9 now, counting my personal one).
Get yourself a wing of Medusa Prototypes to eat up those Typhoons. :twisted:

Edit: Better yet, dock 2 Medusa Prototypes on each Hyperion.... :roll:
Last edited by blackfire83 on Mon, 3. Oct 11, 15:29, edited 1 time in total.
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Triaxx2
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Post by Triaxx2 » Mon, 3. Oct 11, 15:27

Incidentally, the ratio is 1:1, since you have one Hammer fab for every Flail fab.
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Post by heratik » Mon, 3. Oct 11, 15:30

Triaxx2 wrote:Incidentally, the ratio is 1:1, since you have one Hammer fab for every Flail fab.
Pedant :D

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