Capital ship control

[Gazz]

You can in fact even land on these beasts and get out of your playership to meet NPCs while watching the large ship move around in space FROM the deck of the ship!

So at least you can travel in them instead of being forced to participate in "serious" combat while flying some kind of pinnace.

You won't be sitting in the cockpit and steer such a capital ship from the first person perspective anymore simply because that is boring.

That this is boring is an assumption as well as wrong.
It may well be boring to some players just like some players find trading boring. That doesn't mean that it's a good idea to summarily take the boring trading out of the game.

Steering huge and slowly-turning ships manually just doesnt make sense. It would force us to make them turn and move unrealistically quick and even then they would be impossible to maneuver near our huge and complex shaped stations.

The player cannot maneuver them but the AI can?
The autopilot must have improved by several quantum leaps.

I'd rather fly the big ship myself and use Stinky (the Albion Skunk) via the drone controls.

Now if the Rebirth-Autopilot is actually better than a player at combat and navigating in close quarters, then I'll have to reconsider my stance because it would no longer make sense for a player to personally pilot any ship - no matter the size.

[Mightysword]

The player cannot maneuver them but the AI can?
The autopilot must have improved by several quantum leaps.

I think I understand it, take a look at this in the same paragraph.

You won't be sitting in the cockpit and steer such a capital ship from the first person perspective anymore simply because that is boring. Steering huge and slowly-turning ships manually just doesnt make sense. It would force us to make them turn and move unrealistically quick and even then they would be impossible to maneuver near our huge and complex shaped stations.

For me, even if you take the capital ship with the lowest turning rate in previous game I still think they are "too fast", you can turn an M2 180 decree around in about 5-6 seconds. If what Bernd said is true then this is because they had to artificially increase the rate for player control. That makes sense since I don't think it will be thrilling to yank your joytick all the way to the left for a couple minute to make a complete turn. This is part of the reason capital engagement in X game have a feel of a dodge fighting in slow motion rather than capital engagement. Also it makes it impossible to have any kind of proper formation in group engagement. I fancy the idea of having ship of the line, rank fire formation, skirmisher and artillery units ...etc... this is not possible with current game since even if you manually put your ship into a formation, they're too fast to maintain it for more than a few seconds.


If I have to take a guess, the maneuver of capital ship this time will be more akin to Freespace or Tachyon: The Fringe. Maybe their combat model are more about emplacement and formation rather maneuvering like a fighter. If this is the case then I will welcome the change. Remember the reason we don't trust the AI in current game because the capital ship is too fast for them, if they're as slow and bulky as Freespace I have no problem NOT controlling them.

[Bobucles]

What if all capital ships flew like the Aran? Or even slower? Don't tell me that would be exciting! For a proper capital scale, the ships would have to be boringly slow. Otherwise combat would move so fast, that components and subsystems wouldn't matter.

[Walkop]

The player cannot maneuver them but the AI can?

I'd bet that yes, the AI can and will fly these ships better around stations considering they have much better awareness of the situation. We already know that the pathfinding AI is much better considering ships can fly within Station geometry.

Considering the massive size (and, as mentioned, complexity) of these new stations, I wouldn't be suprised if the AI handled them better then a player (generally) would.

Now if the Rebirth-Autopilot is actually better than a player at combat and navigating in close quarters, then I'll have to reconsider my stance because it would no longer make sense for a player to personally pilot any ship - no matter the size.

Didn't say anything about combat. It's simple to figure out that an AI can understand non-player influenced factors (station maneuvering) much easier than things that are influenced by him (combat). It's extremely likely the AI won't be nearly as good as the player in combat; but it is definitely a possibility that it is be better in close-quarters station mmaneuvering. Those involve actual calculations more than simulated intuition, if you know what I mean.

Don't forget, they were limited by processor speed before. If you're running 4 cores, with each dedicated to a different AI aspect, you can guess how advanced said AI can be!

What if all capital ships flew like the Aran? Or even slower? Don't tell me that would be exciting! For a proper capital scale, the ships would have to be boringly slow. Otherwise combat would move so fast, that components and subsystems wouldn't matter.

Agreed. Although I wouldn't think that all capital ships should fly as slowly as the Aran does (I personally haven't seen it - but I have heard of it), keeping them fairly slow would be a really good idea and keep things tactical. No-one wants X to have a fast-paced combat system without strategy

[Regeaj]

I made a threat about the news in the german forum an hour ago and it got alread has 10 answers - All of them basically "Great improvements, but reducing us to 1 ship sucks - Drones are no substitute".

And I want to sit on the bridge of my capital ship. I dont need to STEER it, but the Captains Chair is mine.

[Walkop]

@Regeaj;
I do agree there. Being able to sit in the captain's chair (not necessarily flying the ship, taking the risk out in battle, is a big part of being in a capital ship IMO. Being in your own ship, though, and going out into massive firefights in it - that will be interesting also.

I guess we'll have to see how it pans out!

[Gazz]

I could understand the one-ship limit as a means to keep the story balanceable but after the player gets done with that, it's just petty.

If a 180° turn takes a full minute or two - what's the problem? In fact, that's a requirement to make a capital ship feel properly "capital".
The X3 cap ships are far too squirrely for their size.
"force us to make them turn and move unrealistically quick"? No. Making them that maneuverable was a bad idea back then and it would be a bad idea now.
That they steer as uhh... majestically... as a ton of bricks is the entire point! =P

Then again, maybe we'll only have to wait another 5 years for Rebirth: The Threat, which will feature the awesome new ability to fly capital ships.
No need to despair just yet. On a cosmic scale that's an insignificant length of time.

Didn't say anything about combat. It's simple to figure out that an AI can understand non-player influenced factors (station maneuvering) much easier than things that are influenced by him (combat). It's extremely likely the AI won't be nearly as good as the player in combat; but it is definitely a possibility that it is be better in close-quarters station mmaneuvering. Those involve actual calculations more than simulated intuition, if you know what I mean.

Oh, only being able to pilot capital ships "in combat" would be an acceptable compromise.
I could live with not being allowed to fly a milk run from A to B under manual control.

Getting extremely close to stations is unlikely to be required anyway. That's what you have those fancy drones for.

[Nanook]

Capital ships with large numbers of weapons turrets do not really need to do a lot of maneuvering. Think of the Star Destroyers in Star Wars. In battle, they tended to fly in mostly a straight line, letting the turrets do the work. When they started maneuvering in close quarters, they tended to run into each other.

It seems as if the devs have emulated a lot of that universe in the combat mechanics, from capital ships with tons of turrets and other modules, to flying drones into intake vents to flying along the surface of the ships attacking various bits and pieces. Sound familiar?

[Regeaj]

That they steer as uhh... majestically... as a ton of bricks is the entire point! =P

Thats truer then you might think, one of the reasons I didnt like "Star Trek Online" was that every ship there just felt like a tiny little fighter. Even compared to the "Dogfight-Physics" Star Trek incorporates it just felt silly.

So I have no problem at all with giant ships that take a minute to stop and acclerate. Only problem there they might crash into the Jumpgates connecting the sec...Oh wait.

[Legionnaire]

Depending on how this works out and scripters/modders desires and abilities, I have a suspicion and A (New) Hope, that we might see Star destroyers suffering from TRD (Trench Run Disease) at some point after X-Rebirth has been released

Legionnaire

[Gazz]

Capital ships with large numbers of weapons turrets do not really need to do a lot of maneuvering. Think of the Star Destroyers in Star Wars. In battle, they tended to fly in mostly a straight line, letting the turrets do the work. When they started maneuvering in close quarters, they tended to run into each other.

And that would be just fine and dandy.
Capital ship combat in X3 is so fidgety that you hardly ever have time to properly plan your course to bring your turrets to bear in the most efficient manner.
Bunch of overweight fighters...


If we can "build" capital ships as it is implied by them being modular like stations, then mine will have their reactor cooling vents as bundles of pipes with a diameter smaller than any warhead.
Learn from history - or repeat it.

[Bernd]

I understand that some people will not like this particular fact, but its unfortunately not possible to make everybody 100% happy. We have a certain amount of development time available and have to decide which areas are most important to concentrate on.

Steering a capital ship manually is definitely one of the areas that do not make much sense from a game design point of view. Yes I too have this urge to feel like captain Picard and be personally on a bridge, but please be realistic... How much time and money do you want us to invest into this feature if it is really only for this one cool moment?

Our first priority has to be to make a great new foundation. A new enjoyable universe. After we have this ready for a release... sky is the limit and we can listen to suggestions for what to add in the future.

But please... be patient

-Bernd

[LV]

edit LV

I suppose i should be honoured to be ninja'd by bernd, his ears must have been burning

===============]

then mine will have their reactor cooling vents as bundles of pipes with a diameter smaller than any warhead.
Learn from history - or repeat it.

Actually i'm picturing it like a cyclon base star in my mind (could be way off of course)




Don't really mind the intention myself as long as my ship is a box of meccano to start off with.



I'd also stress that i spent an hour discussing in detail with Bernd last night around the subject and he was adamant that ....

Spoiler

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He'd never turn to the darkside

I have chat logs to prove it

[Scoob]

Hi all,

I really don't mind not being able to pilot a capital ship, as long as I can commend it I'm happy. If I happen to be sat on the bridge telling the captain what to do or what general tactics to use in the case of combat for example, well, I'm happy with that.

Regarding how capital ships move, anyone who's played the Homeworld games will know what looks right. I mean, in Homeworld (released the same time as X-BTF, I actually bought them both at once), a capital ship would manuever to bring it's main guns to bare as needed, if this meant a broadside then they'd manuever accordingly. Also, in the case of ranged missile frigates and the like they'd manuever to maintain diatance etc. Even today, 12 years later, this still looks good. Homeworld 2 released a couple of years later did things even better in my view.

Let's see shall we? As long as I feel suitably powerful when I'm on my first, custom designed, capital ship and it responds well to my orders (AI that works) then I'd say they've done ok.

It's encouraging that Bernd reports the AI as being able to handle flying close to and even through the superstructure of stations. A computer should be a better pilot than the player under these circumstances. This also bodes well for AI combat as a brighter auto pilot can only help.

Personally I hated HAVING to jump into other ships in combat to make them even remotely useful. How often have you seen your "mighty" M2 fleet in TC get slaughtered as they spend most of their time avoiding each other and getting caught in each others cross-fire? Or that wing break up with some ships just sitting there and dieing, others zooming off all alone and some just randomly flying around...when ALL of them were given the one command?

I'm looking forward to finding out more.

Cheers,

Scoob.

[Skeeter]

I understand that some people will not like this particular fact, but its unfortunately not possible to make everybody 100% happy. We have a certain amount of development time available and have to decide which areas are most important to concentrate on.

Steering a capital ship manually is definitely one of the areas that do not make much sense from a game design point of view. Yes I too have this urge to feel like captain Picard and be personally on a bridge, but please be realistic... How much time and money do you want us to invest into this feature if it is really only for this one cool moment?

Our first priority has to be to make a great new foundation. A new enjoyable universe. After we have this ready for a release... sky is the limit and we can listen to suggestions for what to add in the future.

But please... be patient

-Bernd

Hmm you haven't played many space games where its cap ship vs cap ship have you. Bridge Commander, Star Trek Online, Homeworld games, Eve Online to a extent.

You really believe cap ships turn that slow in real life then i think you need to rethink how it works as ok im not that technical but i know that if the massive engines on cap ships are powerful enough then them cap ships can turn fast and also travel very fast as well. Maybe acceleration is a bit slow but when momentum kicks in it can speed up quickly. Even for games alot of space games or tv shows have fast cap ships. Obviously not fighter type speed and manoeuvring but about 5x faster than what you currently portray cap ships to be in current x games. You slow them down because you do not have decent AI for them or maybe the manoeuvring room for them when near large objects, gates, stations for example well just make it so cap ships by the AI don't go too near then.

It is a problem you have and you couldn't develop a good way but that doesn't mean your right in why they are slow as other games, tv shows, movies show them to be done properly just you couldn't so just cut them out for controlling.

I agree it was awful to pilot cap ships in x games but that's not the ships fault its the developers fault imo for not fixing the values for speed and manoeuvring and AI.

Just saying at the end of the day that cap ships can be alot faster than what it falsely portrays cap ships in x games .

Just a shame cap ship combat lacked in x games because i would have had a lot of fun if it was more like bridge commander as an example.

Edit - Some cap ship info from german forum that Bernd posted so thought i would add it here. If Bernd wants he can edit it out and post it properly translated in the thread if he wants.

Hi everyone,

Of course we are clear here that a decision like this for some people not well received. But please understand that we had to concentrate on the things that make the game as a whole, the biggest advantage.

Specifically, the control of capital ships is a good example: Clearly it is very cool from the bridge, such a ship to steer. But that was about it. It does not work very well in the game and the "cool" factor after a while takes off again. How much time and effort should such a feature to us as developers but its value? We can not even now sometimes, unfortunately, forever working on a game ... Every new feature is a balance against the many other alternatives then why can not be made.

Many ships fully present in as much detail as we do with the new player ship is simply mistaken to be expensive.

Our first priority a good "round" new game is to be delivered. One in which the huge amount of new clean again together in harmony. THEN we have a solid base on which to build later on.
(Wants this and I can not promise that we will do exactly this feature later ...)

Just a word to the comments drones versus ships: Owning new ships is of course a major reason to continue playing the game. It is of course primarily to the development.

It moves only a little WHAT you develop in this game. Of course, this is indeed still the many ships that enhance the player's own ship, and especially the building of new stations much more complex than it used to have. There is really only the aspect of "translating itself into the cockpit of the now missing from other ships.

-Bernd

[Mightysword]

If a 180° turn takes a full minute or two - what's the problem? In fact, that's a requirement to make a capital ship feel properly "capital".
The X3 cap ships are far too squirrely for their size.
"force us to make them turn and move unrealistically quick"? No. Making them that maneuverable was a bad idea back then and it would be a bad idea now.
That they steer as uhh... majestically... as a ton of bricks is the entire point! =P

That's exactly the point AND the problem. I think you missed what I said: a "realistic turning rate" and "direct player control" are mutual exclusive. For the record, I "hate" the way X's cap ship currently is because they're just like bulky fighters. I would "love" to see a capital ship to take 2min to turn. However, aside from a few hardcore players I think it's a safe bet that 95% of the players will rage if it takes them a full 2 minutes just to turn the ship they're flying.

From what Bernd I said I take it the current rate of turn wasn't something realistic, but rather an compromise in order to make them flyable by the player in term of gameplay, just like the SETA concept really - a pile of boodoo crap but it has to exist for the game to be playable. This time it looks like they're going with the opposite route, our capship will turn majestically... as a ton of bricks ... at the cost of our control over it. If you agree that their decision till now is a bad idea, can't blame them to try the other idea can you?

[Canefox]

I think it might be an improvement this new method of control. You'd feel less like a lone crewman on a gigantic ship meant to house hundreds perhaps thousands of other people, and more like an actual captain.

[Bill67]

I think it might be an improvement this new method of control. You'd feel less like a lone crewman on a gigantic ship meant to house hundreds perhaps thousands of other people, and more like an actual captain.

I agree with this and yeah I can already see they wont please 100% of the fanbase either way.

For myself, getting a capitol ship and outfitting them was the highlight of my X series games, flying them was not...

I think too many want the massive firepower and the freedom to treat them like some kind of bulky fighter but to me, when I had enough credits to own 1, I sure as hell didnt want to be a lowly pilot anymore but the the captain to give it orders. While I may not be able to sit on a bridge of 1 and do this, I dont mind 'hiring' a captain and nudging him from time to time...

Lets face it, once you have aquired a capitol ship, you have grown past fighter jock (it doesnt mean you still cant be one with other options) and now are a commander/trading magnate/pirate lord, etc.

If the AI isnt suicidal, and I think if cap ships dont have same physics as fast fighters which makes them slower and better for an AI to control, then I for one am all for being the owner rather than the pilot.

What were cap ships tactics for X2-3? If anything I see more strategy/depth now than ever before and already people want to go back to X3.

It honestly makes more sense to me that handling a cap ship is completely different from a fighter/interceptor/bomber. Like I said before, the way cap ships were handled in earlier X versions seemed silly to me but I went with the flow. Yes its awesome to be in control of that firepower, but hello, we still are, were just not pressing the fire button but saying FIRE!

[101010]

Well Bernd said you can be on the deck of a capital ship, maybe that means you can be on the command deck giving orders to your crew. Which would make sense, I don't recall Picard taking control of the helm personally to many times. Sure in a couple of episodes but that was about it.

We'll see how it plays out though, however I would miss being in direct control of an M7 though. Of course that is moot because we don't know if or in what form the old classes exist.

[silenced]

That discussion about 'realistic or not' makes me giggle.