I do hope the new BigShips have the ability to "cross the T".ragamer wrote:
A Cap Fleet is all about possitioning and facing, how to focus fire and when to get out of range but... "Maneuvering"?...
Capital ship control
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I want to just sneak a few heavy guns onto the back of my ship as a present for anyone who tries that...Shootist wrote:I do hope the new BigShips have the ability to "cross the T".ragamer wrote:
A Cap Fleet is all about possitioning and facing, how to focus fire and when to get out of range but... "Maneuvering"?...
See, a lot of people are complaining about capital ships but we couldn't have considered doing that in the old X games!
For me i saw Caps in X3TC like oversized fighters nothing more nothing less, but capital ships, no way..
Dont know if any here remembers X-Wing vs Tie fighter (one of the few really good StarWars games ever made) when you sheered over a Star Destroyer of even Super Star Destroyer in a A-Wing thinking when does that thing ever ends, shooting turrets and shield generators so you can take it out with Y-Wing and X-wings..
Those ships took alse ages too move around, and took ages too take down as well wich i never saw back in any other game (well cept maybe EvE, but still it didnt came close to Xwing vs TieFighters Caps)
And this i secretly hope too see coming back into XR when i read their posts about Capitals, slow moving huge ships with awesome firepower, filled with turrets, shield generators, trenches too fly through making a tactical fight just too take a cap out, instead like now pummel it into submission with just bigger guns and shields the other ship has.
Dont know if any here remembers X-Wing vs Tie fighter (one of the few really good StarWars games ever made) when you sheered over a Star Destroyer of even Super Star Destroyer in a A-Wing thinking when does that thing ever ends, shooting turrets and shield generators so you can take it out with Y-Wing and X-wings..
Those ships took alse ages too move around, and took ages too take down as well wich i never saw back in any other game (well cept maybe EvE, but still it didnt came close to Xwing vs TieFighters Caps)
And this i secretly hope too see coming back into XR when i read their posts about Capitals, slow moving huge ships with awesome firepower, filled with turrets, shield generators, trenches too fly through making a tactical fight just too take a cap out, instead like now pummel it into submission with just bigger guns and shields the other ship has.
Depends on your batteries configurations... That's why it's critical to be able to access detailed data about firing arcs from the AI script... Or any kind of reassoning based on turret layout will be bound to fail. One of my favorites would be to try to script a Z-axis, T formation... Were you "pile up" Caps with dense broadsides so an approaching enemy has to face maximum firepower of a static "layered" pack of CapsI do hope the new BigShips have the ability to "cross the T".
Another topic, partially linked to this, is pinpoint accuracy... One of the issues previous X's Cap model got was that all guns' proyectiles got Fighter Scale Accuracy, leaving only in hands of proyectile speed the "reduced" chance to hit the faster the enemy moved compared to the collision section...
...On the screenshots released there are 2 types of turret and one is labelled as a heavy turret. Would rock to have:
- Heavy Turrets. Slow Tracking. Able to mount low accuracy, long range and high impact weapons.
- Light Turrets. Fast Tracking. Able to mount high accuracy, short range and low impact weapons.
That way fighters that are able to fly close couldn't be tracked by the Heavy turrets, so Caps wanting to have good Point Defense should sacrifice Heavy Firepower at range.
This, OFC, requires even more "Finesse" at the AI scripts... But IMHO are the Core of a tactically varied modular system of Weapon + Turret... Otherwise we will have the same issues as in X's... a lot of nice looking bullets... But only 3 types effective because "accuracy" didn't count against slow moving targets.
- robalexhall
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It's not the size of the ships. Capitals are actually bigger in the X games. You just flew much slower in Tie Fighter.Arragoth wrote:For me i saw Caps in X3TC like oversized fighters nothing more nothing less, but capital ships, no way..
Dont know if any here remembers X-Wing vs Tie fighter (one of the few really good StarWars games ever made) when you sheered over a Star Destroyer of even Super Star Destroyer in a A-Wing thinking when does that thing ever ends, shooting turrets and shield generators so you can take it out with Y-Wing and X-wings..
Those ships took alse ages too move around, and took ages too take down as well wich i never saw back in any other game (well cept maybe EvE, but still it didnt came close to Xwing vs TieFighters Caps)
And this i secretly hope too see coming back into XR when i read their posts about Capitals, slow moving huge ships with awesome firepower, filled with turrets, shield generators, trenches too fly through making a tactical fight just too take a cap out, instead like now pummel it into submission with just bigger guns and shields the other ship has.
Hopeully, with the trade lanes and no need for seta in rebirth, flight speed will be lower too to give more sense of scale to kilometer long ships.
[quote="robalexhall] It's not the size of the ships. Capitals are actually bigger in the X games. You just flew much slower in Tie Fighter.
Hopeully, with the trade lanes and no need for seta in rebirth, flight speed will be lower too to give more sense of scale to kilometer long ships.[/quote]
I found the speed in X3 allways weird and way off, cant really put it into words, but it felt to me as pretty slow allready, i pretty much found any fighter ship cept maybe the scorpions with engine upgrades way too slow moving, compared too the turning rate especially with the upgrades on Max..
Took me a long time too get used too, now that i am used too it, i can pretty much dodge nearly everything, still it doesnt "feel" right though..
But then it might have too do with sometimes clautofobic small area's and over crowded travellanes like it was rush hour on the Highway and trying too balance the size of the "maps" with balanced speeds and the illusion of high speeds..
The SETA i never liked, allthough it was a nessity, but it was weird, i used the Afterburner mod too compensate for it, wich felt too me more "natural" if you can say that in a game
What i really loved in X3 was that you where able too make quick 180 turn, but you kept your momentum for a few seconds, thus allowing too make a quick shot at a chasing bogey turn 180 degrees again and keep on running from him, too rinse and repeat, too prevent getting caught in a tight turn dogfight
Dont get me wrong, i loved the game one of the few games i kept playing for over the years, not many games kept my interrest for that long
Still there where some quirks in the game that didnt make sence too me, but alas i could understand the reasoning why..
My biggest hope is that they adress these lil quirks in XR... too make the game "ahem" perfect
Hopeully, with the trade lanes and no need for seta in rebirth, flight speed will be lower too to give more sense of scale to kilometer long ships.[/quote]
I found the speed in X3 allways weird and way off, cant really put it into words, but it felt to me as pretty slow allready, i pretty much found any fighter ship cept maybe the scorpions with engine upgrades way too slow moving, compared too the turning rate especially with the upgrades on Max..
Took me a long time too get used too, now that i am used too it, i can pretty much dodge nearly everything, still it doesnt "feel" right though..
But then it might have too do with sometimes clautofobic small area's and over crowded travellanes like it was rush hour on the Highway and trying too balance the size of the "maps" with balanced speeds and the illusion of high speeds..
The SETA i never liked, allthough it was a nessity, but it was weird, i used the Afterburner mod too compensate for it, wich felt too me more "natural" if you can say that in a game
What i really loved in X3 was that you where able too make quick 180 turn, but you kept your momentum for a few seconds, thus allowing too make a quick shot at a chasing bogey turn 180 degrees again and keep on running from him, too rinse and repeat, too prevent getting caught in a tight turn dogfight
Dont get me wrong, i loved the game one of the few games i kept playing for over the years, not many games kept my interrest for that long
Still there where some quirks in the game that didnt make sence too me, but alas i could understand the reasoning why..
My biggest hope is that they adress these lil quirks in XR... too make the game "ahem" perfect
- robalexhall
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The springblossom at 350m/s = 782 mph is the only large 'supersonic' ship in the game. The Aran is slower than an Iowa class battleship at 28mph, while the other X1-X2's are only marginally faster than James May in a Vauxhall.robalexhall wrote:Try changing the view angle down to 70 degrees. Part of the reason things feel small is you have such a wide view (along witht the lack of cockpits and X ships going the speed of a super sonic fighter rather than slower than a car as per tie fighter).
And I've never liked SETA either.
- Bill Bones
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To be honest, almost every space simulator out there has had its velocities unrealistically cut down to enable dogfight. Dogfighting is unpractical beyond a certain speed, tipically that of WW2 era fighters. Think of it this way: A supersonic fighter will travel 20 imes its length in a second, and so will be crossing before your guns for about 1/20th of a second. Also G forces keep piling as you try and turn at higher speeds, so else you need several kilometers to turn around or go beyond what human body can resist.Shootist wrote:The springblossom at 350m/s = 782 mph is the only large 'supersonic' ship in the game. The Aran is slower than an Iowa class battleship at 28mph, while the other X1-X2's are only marginally faster than James May in a Vauxhall.robalexhall wrote:Try changing the view angle down to 70 degrees. Part of the reason things feel small is you have such a wide view (along witht the lack of cockpits and X ships going the speed of a super sonic fighter rather than slower than a car as per tie fighter).
And I've never liked SETA either.
This is why modern air combat is carried out from kilometers apart and using missiles, which can pull much more Gs than a manned aircraft.
The point is that dogfighting is not in the current business (if a fighter pilot must dogfight, a gazillion things must have gone horribly wrong), and is beyond any use in real space travel. Real space combat probably will be terribly unexciting and boring, and thus every space simulation out there depicts future war engagements as those that where so fun in the ast: WW2 warfare with lasers and minimal use of 3D.
You're describing X-16, not X-universe games.Bill Bones wrote:To be honest, almost every space simulator out there has had its velocities unrealistically cut down to enable dogfight. Dogfighting is unpractical beyond a certain speed, tipically that of WW2 era fighters. Think of it this way: A supersonic fighter will travel 20 imes its length in a second, and so will be crossing before your guns for about 1/20th of a second. Also G forces keep piling as you try and turn at higher speeds, so else you need several kilometers to turn around or go beyond what human body can resist.Shootist wrote:The springblossom at 350m/s = 782 mph is the only large 'supersonic' ship in the game. The Aran is slower than an Iowa class battleship at 28mph, while the other X1-X2's are only marginally faster than James May in a Vauxhall.robalexhall wrote:Try changing the view angle down to 70 degrees. Part of the reason things feel small is you have such a wide view (along witht the lack of cockpits and X ships going the speed of a super sonic fighter rather than slower than a car as per tie fighter).
And I've never liked SETA either.
This is why modern air combat is carried out from kilometers apart and using missiles, which can pull much more Gs than a manned aircraft.
The point is that dogfighting is not in the current business (if a fighter pilot must dogfight, a gazillion things must have gone horribly wrong), and is beyond any use in real space travel. Real space combat probably will be terribly unexciting and boring, and thus every space simulation out there depicts future war engagements as those that where so fun in the ast: WW2 warfare with lasers and minimal use of 3D.
One cannot make high g turns in space w/o some kind of gravity control that renders "high g" meaningless. One can make High G course correction burns, but that isn't a "turn" and isn't how these games are presented.
I am still waiting for a Space Battles game, with good physics and High ISP spaceships, that do not turn, to be produced.
Elite Frontiers, with Newtonians physics... You activated "thurst mode" and voilá... "Real" space fights...I am still waiting for a Space Battles game, with good physics and High ISP spaceships, that do not turn, to be produced.
...Was fun, but you actually spend 90% of the time trying to balance your speed vector towards your enemy's... After it, a short laser burst interchange and the winner could continue travelling. In this modern age of "I want to do things nao!!" this kind of combat paradigm wouldn't be welcome by a significant proportion of any game playerbase... Too much "idle" time.
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That was my instinctive reaction, too, but after spending quite a bit of brain-sweat, I think that something like this would feel a lot cap-shippier than direct joystick control.hokiturmix wrote:pilotable capships
That would allow capital ships to be ponderous behemoths that actually feel capital. =P
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- robalexhall
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I was talking about fighters in reference to the post comparing X with Star Wars. Plus I've been playing XRM long enough that I've forgotten vanilla speedsShootist wrote:The springblossom at 350m/s = 782 mph is the only large 'supersonic' ship in the game. The Aran is slower than an Iowa class battleship at 28mph, while the other X1-X2's are only marginally faster than James May in a Vauxhall.robalexhall wrote:Try changing the view angle down to 70 degrees. Part of the reason things feel small is you have such a wide view (along witht the lack of cockpits and X ships going the speed of a super sonic fighter rather than slower than a car as per tie fighter).
And I've never liked SETA either.
Basically I saying you couldn't do a trench run on a 1.6km star destroyer when you'd overfly the thing in a few seconds.
The one ship thing makes me nervous too.
I'm trying to look at it from the standpoint of...the idea is to promote your vantage point from pilot, to emperor.
In other words, the mechanic turns you more into an empire manager with a birds eye view (on an xyz axis) than a dog fighting pilot. I think it could grow on me.
And if it doesn't, X3TC will hold me over for a long time.
There are some other games to be watching... Black Prophecy, Jumpgate Evolution. I still think this will be better than both of those.
I'm trying to look at it from the standpoint of...the idea is to promote your vantage point from pilot, to emperor.
In other words, the mechanic turns you more into an empire manager with a birds eye view (on an xyz axis) than a dog fighting pilot. I think it could grow on me.
And if it doesn't, X3TC will hold me over for a long time.
There are some other games to be watching... Black Prophecy, Jumpgate Evolution. I still think this will be better than both of those.
I was in the Black Prophecy beta and the scale of the game is just too small. Sure, the dogfights are fun, but that's about it. Too limited. So can be fun, but not even close to what X is.Hrodeth wrote:There are some other games to be watching... Black Prophecy, Jumpgate Evolution. I still think this will be better than both of those.
Actually when I read the interviews stickies , this is what I am taking from it and I cant say I am disspointed. In any of the previous X games, I never felt like an owner of fleets/factories. All I ever had was the pilot view.Hrodeth wrote:The one ship thing makes me nervous too.
I'm trying to look at it from the standpoint of...the idea is to promote your vantage point from pilot, to emperor.
In other words, the mechanic turns you more into an empire manager with a birds eye view (on an xyz axis) than a dog fighting pilot. I think it could grow on me.
And if it doesn't, X3TC will hold me over for a long time.
I am sure their are alot of things to let you use your dogfighting skills on, and I still cant believe people who after making millions want to be promoted to a mere helmsman on a capship and not its owner?
I never got a chance to own it but I think the game was called starshatter, you started off as a pilot doing missions and as you worked your way up the ladder you finally got to be commander of a capitol ship. But then the game changed to where you had more of a isometric view of your ship with firing arcs and it would be more tactical. While I dont exactly expect this, I am hoping along the lines its more tactical than just firing all weapons and strafing to avoid return fire.
If they make capitol ships more ponderous, I am sure everyone that is clamoring to be a pilot will then complain on how slow they are.