Please, do complex. PC-complex.

[OdinValhik]

I LIKE complicated damn it!!

I presume you really mean complex not complicated (depth vs. difficult to use/learn)..

If X3 was so complex as to be broken then how come me and a friend of mine came into the series at X3TC and loved it?

I suppose we're a dying gamer breed..

[softweir]

Doesn't look good

http://www.egosoft.com/company/jobs_en.php

*snip*
Specialization in one or more of:
Console graphics experience for work on PS3 / Xbox360
*snip*

Oh dear god....

and here was me thinking X was one of the last bastions of PC gaming.

I LIKE complicated damn it!!

If X3 was so complex as to be broken then how come me and a friend of mine came into the series at X3TC and loved it? how can it be bad if 2 complete noobs can go from knowing nothing to having trading empires, complexes, fleets etc? (admittedly with lots of wiki and forums trawling... wait that doesnt sound right..... damn.)

Hasn't that job advert been around for many years?

[OdinValhik]

Hopefully it as expired, but I don't know.. Let's hope at least that *specific* requirement has.

[DeepFried]

I LIKE complicated damn it!!

I presume you really mean complex not complicated (depth vs. difficult to use/learn)..

Nope, I most definately mean complicated. I like esoteric games, it adds both a sense of acheivement and a nice long learning curve, in the case of X3 a learning curve that can span years.

Thats replay value.

Besides, the difference between complex and complicated is really just symantics and marketing. Complex is complicated... otherwise its simply not complex. There is no such thing as complexity though a simple interface... at best all you end up with in that case is a distillation of the complex system into a limited approximation.

Of course its possible for an interface to be complex without being arcane and confusing, and thats somthing that X3TC doesnt really achieve. I would welcome a logical re-thining and organisation of the X3 interface, just so long as nothing was lost in the process.

[OdinValhik]

Well, when I think of the term complicated in this context, as said in the main thread post, hopefully, means they will make it easier for new user to get into the game, but not create a dumped down X-game that focus on: FIGHT and EXERCISE YOUR GAME-PAD FINGERS.

I personally, never felt that the X-series were too much of a challenge to get into, yes, a little thinking is required, but that is even in the slogan of the game . I can understand why it may be for some though..

None of the real good old fans want a "dumbed down" version of a up-coming game. My fear, because of all the limitations the current consoles have, are that they would potentially ruin the game, and the real goal for Egosoft, is that they have a main focus to just reach a market that is *potentially* large, which do contain a lot of people with another gamer-mindset.

I must say, I even felt that X3:[R/TC] did try to simplify the controls (keyboard, mouse), because of their original intention to make this game "game-pad friendly.", which turned the game on the PC with a relative bad sub-optimal user-interface. But the main thing, the game had depth and complexity elsewhere, and that made it easy for me to overlook that.

Most problems, in the beginning, were bugs, that I will call was *complicated* or a challenge to solve without the patches.

[shireknight]

Just read this in an article someone else posted in another thread

"Consumer PCs are 10-times the install base of any individual console market. Given that free-to-play is largely dependent on having as large a total available market as humanly possible the PC, for gaming, couldn't be in a better position."

so it looks like the console market is still no threat to PC game development yet and they also say piracy of PC games is on the decline which is also good news for us PC gamers

[madcow]

The problem for PC gaming is the fact that while the installed base of PCs is bigger, their specifications vary wildly, from absolute shit to brand-spanking new. Additionally, while the PC install base is bigger, the actual number of copies bought send to be higher on the consoles, and the prices are higher as well (although this is probably due to fees to MS and Sony).

So, to an increasing amount of developers, the consoles are a very attractive target. It's just such a pity they haven't got a proper interface for FPS, RTS, TBS games etc.

[OdinValhik]

A console IS really a kind of a PC, stripped down. Today they're mostly with an inferior/aging technology spec. It's just a "über"-proprietary PC.

It is somewhat cheaper initially, but the games are *mostly* at a higher cost. You pretty much have bought yourself into a corner.

[madcow]

To be fair, you can buy a lot of games to make up for the initial outlay. Additionally, it looks like the 360/PS3 generation will last for at least another few years before they'll be replaced by a new generation, and my 360 is still from back when the 20GB version was the biggest and the best, and it's still working (well, the last time I fired it up, which I think is a year ago).

Again, if only they had a physical control interface which was optimized for FPS/RTS/TBS/etc games, the consoles (lack of memory aside) would've been fine. Alas.

[Syock]

I have such fond memories of being in the middle of doing something in X#, pulling up the map through some ship menu, having to do something else not game related, come back and have no idea what on earth I had this particular map window open for. ahhh Good times.

I have no doubt the menus can be streamlined in a way that maintains the depth of gameplay without losing functions.

I think some good examples might be found in strat games. A minimap with scroll wheel zoom with a HUD listing of stuff in the selected system, and right click context menu's could make a world of difference. As Egosoft themselves said, they got stuck with an old system because they just kept building on the old one.


I wish I could work for them developing the economy in the game. Will work for food!

[Mightysword]

you know ... I always find the PC's power discussion funny. In a tech topic, for the most part you see majority people clamoring on how they can't afford the latest hardware, how the dev shooting themselves on the foot for "ignoring" the older hardware, they come up with data on how only a minority is actually with the top of the line hardware ...etc...

Yet, when the console themselves enter the picture then it's like the PC's crowd hit the panic button and turn on the "my **** is bigger then yours!!" mode, then go on tangent about superior hardware and such. So ... what are we? Most people think dealing with a bipolar girlfriend is a lot of headache, how much headache you think it is to deal with a bipolar player bases?


Honestly, preference aside I think the console people get more bang for the buck. The PC's superiority comes with a cost to achieve and maintain. And what the console lack in raw power, they're made up for optimization. You buy a top PC and enjoy your 6 months of frame then start losing performance. The console is like the opposite, it gain performance over time. Say the PS2 had a 7 year life span, have you ever go back and comparing the early release like Legend of Gaia II, Suikoden 3 with late tittle like Final Fantasy X-2 or Xenosaga 3? The hardware didn't change, but the quality looks like they are at least 2 generation cycle apart. What is the cost to maintain a PC through 2 hardware cycle, can you even run game after 7 years? This generation of console is nothing to scoff at either unless you're running some of best PC, and until the next generation thing will keep getting better for it.

[Syock]

I haven't really had issues with just doing a relatively cheap upgrade every 5 years or so that kept me in the games. I need a PC anyway for all the other things I do with a PC. I have tried the console route too and always find PC to be cheaper for me as well as more flexible. *shrugs*

[OdinValhik]

you know ... I always find the PC's power discussion funny. In a tech topic, for the most part you see majority people clamoring on how they can't afford the latest hardware,
*snip*

We're, well, at least I am, not talking about making this game *only* to work on the recent PC spec. today, but I rather refer to that the console hardware release cycle that is *very* slow in comparison, and it does mean they need to strip/take short-cuts in the development of the game (and that's a lot of places) to fit the eye-candy-focused crowd of console people these days.

[madcow]

Honestly, preference aside I think the console people get more bang for the buck.

If you play 3rd person games, platforming games or other games which are simplified enough to work on a pad, have no problems with autoaim, snapping to structures, lack of physics etc etc etc, then yes, absolutely, they are giving people the most bang for their buck.

If you play strategy games, FPSes etc, then chances are the picture gets a bit more blurry.

[Mightysword]

Honestly, preference aside I think the console people get more bang for the buck.

If you play 3rd person games, platforming games or other games which are simplified enough to work on a pad, have no problems with autoaim, snapping to structures, lack of physics etc etc etc, then yes, absolutely, they are giving people the most bang for their buck.

Hey, we all know certain type of control scheme will work better or worse on a certain type of control, no need to do the low blow and "slang" the controller like that.

I can give you a few example that the gamepad trump mouse+keyboard easily, like it's hard to imagine playing Ninja Gaiden with a mouse and keyboard, if being simpler is all what the gamepad is, then mouse&keyboard should be able to handle that game with no problem ... which they don't. Also don't underestimate the precision of good console player, they can be as precise as any mouse user can be, not all console games have auto aim you know ... in fact, most dont. Btw, just to do my own low blow ... most people can't hit squat in X without auto-aim, what platform is it on again?


That's why I said "preference" aside though, your calling is where your games at, and nowadays you can plug a dpad into a computer or plug in a mouse&keyboard into a console anyway, I doubt that difference will really matter for long in the future.

[OdinValhik]

I can give you a few example that the gamepad trump mouse+keyboard easily, like it's hard to imagine playing Ninja Gaiden with a mouse and keyboard, if being simpler is all what the gamepad is, then mouse&keyboard should be able to handle that game with no problem ... which they don't. Also don't underestimate the precision of good console .

You're probably talking about some specific console-games, that is, in your experience suited and designed for a game-pad, which is pretty much inherently a proprietary device.

When you for example want a more realistic game, like say, FSX or any *decent* simulator (we're talking about in relation to the real world), you definitively should buy a proper joystick and still use the keyboard and mouse, at least you have your own freedom to choose any of these three items independently of the brand, fitting your specific preferences.

[madcow]

Hey, we all know certain type of control scheme will work better or worse on a certain type of control, no need to do the low blow and "slang" the controller like that.

Actually, I stand by my post. I've tried out a few platform games that were ported to the PC (like Prince of Persia, this was because they released it without DRM, and I wanted to help prove to Ubisoft that DRM was unnecessary; obviously that failed), and I had absolutely no problem whatsoever to play it.

In fact, I was annoyed once when I tried out Mirror's Edge on the 360, because it actually had a button specifically for turning around 180 degrees, whereas I would presumably just have snapped round with the mouse and pressed jump again to jump off again.

Literally, the only time I've ever had a real problem with the controls (barring snapping to structures) was GTA3 or GTA4:SA, I forget which. I had to fly a helicopter up into a building, and they'd managed to map the keys so awkwardly for the keyboard that I just couldn't reliably fly the damn thing. A tiny adjustment and all would've been well, however. vOv

[robalexhall]

Say the PS2 had a 7 year life span, have you ever go back and comparing the early release like Legend of Gaia II, Suikoden 3 with late tittle like Final Fantasy X-2 or Xenosaga 3?.

I play PS2 games emulated with PCSX2 in HD with texture filtering and save at any time

I've got nothing against consoles, console games or console gamers... some are even my friends despite their macbooks and consoles

I was disputing the suggestion that: designing for the controller comes without compromises, is somehow the hallmark of good design, and is the best control method for games of all types even first person, sims and strategy.

... ... I'm only surprised we're still arguing about this

And yup GTA games are crappy with mouse... gamepads are good for driving games for sure (probably would be optimal for driving in reality too). On the other hand moving with one thumb and looking/aiming with the other is horrible.

[rusky]

I have never had any issues playing any game using mouse and keyboard, that was not a terribly made console port.

Also, if you custom build yourself a top of the line PC, you will not see frame drops in 6 months time, and if you do it's again because games are ported over to the PC, badly.
And the only reason consoles don't experience frame drops is not because the games made for consoles are somehow super optimised and better coded, but because the developers are so restricted in terms of what they can do that they always have to keep close to the same level of GFX that the console can actually support.

As others have stated, I would HATE to have to drive my car around with a controller.

I don't like console games. Yes, i'm not very objective here, but it had to be said. I hate the reduced complexity, I hate how everything in these games has been reduced to 2 button actions or quick time events.
I LOATHE THE BLOODY MENU INTERFACES. I have a mouse, I should be able to click and drag those new boots on my character not have to use 3 buttons and a scroll (which sometimes doesn't even respond to my mouse).

I for one do not want X:Rebirth to have anything to do with consoles.
I cannot think of one good thing that has ever come from console games. Not one.

[Virtualaughing]

If we can attach a keybard to the console then that wont be different. Console games are hard to update.