Am I the only one who ISNT excited about XR ?

[apricotslice]

Am I the only one who ISNT excited about XR ?

One of the things I liked about the X series was that it was pretty new, pretty original.

But XR seems to be a cobbling together of a lot of general scifi stuff. The highways sounds like Freelancer, which I binned. The ship functions sound like Star Trek Bridge Commander, which was ok, but I'm a space combat pilot, not a pencil neck order giver. Drones have already been done to death in plenty of games, and I thought we had evolved beyond them.

Lots of interesting stuff, but it all sounds like bits and pieces of scifi games and scifi tv, all cobbled together.

What happened to X being unique and original ?

And then there is the modding aspect. For me, Gone.

I feel a sense of dread. X3 and TC were unplayable (imo) without major modding, why would the next game be any different ? And if I cant change anything, will the game last more than a week before I bin it out of frustration ?

On one hand, all this information is a downer. On the other hand, at least I'm not going to get a total shock when I load the game the first time. (If I do).

The more I read, the less enthusiasm I feel.

Am I the only one ?

[Skeeter]

Well i dont play many games these days just world of tanks. So me getting rebirth is pretty low unless its incredible.

Drones i duno i doubt i would like them tbh they seem stuck on to fill a void for some reason.

1 ship i dont mind that much as long as its like a m6 from x2 the osprey as thats the ship i used most of all as it could take damage but was a decent speed too and had good weapons.

Station building is supose to be very much better but tbh it sounds boring as i dont really want to do much apart from do story and shoot stuff up and win the game/story then thats it for me. Station building burned me out in x2 so never doing that again.

Only thing i really hoped from a x game was the empire vs federation style mission ranking and progression from elite games somehow get into a x game that would be great to have a proper war between 2 big factions and offer missions and work for. Doubt its in rebirth otherwise they would have listed the info for it by now for working for A or B.

Glad they are redoing alot of the gameplay tho as it desperately needed a revamp or a totally new IP. They opted to revamp which isnt the best way i thought but fair do's for finally stop developing the same game over and over again just adding to it every few years.

Highways tho, thats worse imo than the seta "hack" a proper fast travel would jump drives/micro warp drives. Be much better than having big tubes fill space and make it ugly to view and it would feel very out of place imo.

Sry for mistakes and grammar its near 4am.

[Mightysword]

What happened to X being unique and original ?

X being unique and original? Since when? It's just a rare game for a low demand market, there is nothing in X up till this point that I will call original. Maybe you feel it's original because there isn't many like it rather than because it's doing something news. I mean ... games like Sword of the Stars are also pretty damn rare too, I can't think of any games in the market or near future is like it. But original? Hardly. If you go with the round of "been there, seen that" from various source than you need something on the order of Minecraft or Little Big Planet or Spore to be "original".

And I don't mean the lack of originality as an offense or scrunity to the developers. Gerne like FPS get a truck load of release every year so big companies have to strike for every drop of originality they can get to compete and not to feel redundant, yet the market for FPS is full of redundancy. Games like X ? Even if they're lack originality, there are too few of them to be redundant. How many games like X we get? One every few years. You might want to keep playing the same games for years after years, for me 2,3 years and I need my update fit. It doesn't have to be original, but I need a new game, doing thing a bit different. I don't need Egosoft to come up with a new recipe, since the one they're using is hardly served anywhere else. So I'm glad to get my dishes, as long as it is cooked well. And again, that doesn't make it original, it just means no one else want to do it.

And then there is the modding aspect. For me, Gone.

I feel a sense of dread. X3 and TC were unplayable (imo) without major modding, why would the next game be any different ? And if I cant change anything, will the game last more than a week before I bin it out of frustration ?

eh

Seeing how Egosoft has been confirming they will keep the modding centric nature of the game, going as far as people who mod before will have an easy time migrating to XR, I have no idea where you got that idea from.

[apricotslice]

Seeing how Egosoft has been confirming they will keep the modding centric nature of the game, going as far as people who mod before will have an easy time migrating to XR, I have no idea where you got that idea from.

That sort of indicates your not a modder.

Yes there will be modding. But asuming that everyone will make the adaption to the new coding style is a completely different matter. The script editor is gone, replaced by the Mission Director style of doing things. So something hard and frustrating got replaced by something unfathomable. (for me anyway).

Besides, it has been said the modding tools will not be released with the game.

I stopped playing Sins, when they went to a new version without bringing out the modding stuff at the same time. Never went back. I see they are about to do it again too.

[Mightysword]

That sort of indicates your not a modder.

Yes there will be modding. But asuming that everyone will make the adaption to the new coding style is a completely different matter. The script editor is gone, replaced by the Mission Director style of doing things. So something hard and frustrating got replaced by something unfathomable. (for me anyway).

Not modding with X maybe, but I had modded other game and I don't get what you're saying. You think that real modders won't try to learn the new tools? Or you just don't want to learn the new tools? I mod a lot with the Aurora tool set in NWN, then NWN2 for the Electron Engine come around, and don't get me start on the behemoth that came with Dragon Age. If you previously mod it's true that you will adapt easier, but the pain is still there.

Or if you want to talk about the user's respective, than it's ain't the game fault that you're spoiled. After all the gigantic library of mod available wasn't there overnight. Modding is a way to sustain the interest in the game over a long period of time, it's not something for you to have fun in day one. Of course, if you're a hardcore like Gazz claiming he will make capital ship flying available in the first week then sure go ahead, but your complain is hardly the game's fault. Most thriving modding community takes 6 months to a year to pick up, people have to learn the how before they can be creative.

Besides, it has been said the modding tools will not be released with the game.

Understandable, and again I think you're just spoiled in this regard. XR is a new API, they're not bringing over some old stuff. It seems like you don't understand the process it takes to create a modding tools. A lot of people tend to think modding tools are simple the dev giving us what they use. Most of the time that's not the case in all. Most of the development resource of a company are licensed stuff, I bet for us to use the same tool it will be make available for free. Sometime they have to create back door or leave part of the program open for a user modding tool to be intergrated. So in general, to provide a comprehensive modding tool is usually something a dev would have to go out of their way to provide. I wouldn't be surprise if it's not finalize at this point, or by the time the game is launched.


And before all that ... where did you hear that it won't be released with the game anyway?

[LTerSlash]

so far the only thing thats looks good is the station construction, we need more info.

[Kor'ah]

Lack of familiarity. Egosoft took the last dozen years of work, balled it up and tossed it into the bin. Then started a new game from scratch.

Other than back story this game will have nothing to do with the prior X games. While X Rebirth is heavily borrowing ideas from other long defunct titles, it's going to be the combination of those ideas that'll result in a completely new game.

While I am apprehensive over all this, I am optimistic that Bernd's merry band can pull this off and give us a truly fun game to play. We'll just have to see how this all plays out.

[apricotslice]

Mightysword, you obviously havent read the modding forums or the mods and scripts lists if your not aware of my involvement with modding so far.

Its not a matter of not learning the new language, its a matter of failing to learn its predecessor. I've already tried and failed to use the Mission Director. Scripting has been removed. Modding tools wont be available with the game. (Its been said multiple times by egosoft.)

And no, its not a matter of being spoiled. Its the difference between binning a game that is too hard and changing it to make it more playable. My whole modding philosophy is about removing the "balance" that makes playing too hard for some people, and too frustrating for others.

X3 for example, came within a whisker of being binned. It was just that I found a different approach to it that kept me alive long enough to stay interested (and write a guide on doing it), then I started modding it. TC, would have gone straight in the bin without being able to port over my existing script set.

Yes, it seems a lot of the existing scripts are null in the new game, but all the same, not being able to fix a major frustration as soon as it appears is a downside.

[Mightysword]

While X Rebirth is heavily borrowing ideas from other long defunct titles, it's going to be the combination of those ideas that'll result in a completely new game.

Exactly, have you ever on one day clear out everything in your refrigerator or shelves and put all of them into one cooking pot? Do you have ever a surprise with that?

Mightysword, you obviously havent read the modding forums or the mods and scripts lists if your not aware of my involvement with modding so far.

No, I know who you are and your involvement, I just didn't get what you were trying to say.

Its not a matter of not learning the new language, its a matter of failing to learn its predecessor. I've already tried and failed to use the Mission Director. Scripting has been removed. Modding tools wont be available with the game. (Its been said multiple times by egosoft.)

O ... k. Care to direct me to said information? I wasn't aware there is another place where the Dev is talking about XR stuff. I thought this is the only place.

Yes, it seems a lot of the existing scripts are null in the new game, but all the same, not being able to fix a major frustration as soon as it appears is a downside.

Ok, you ... won't like my answer, but if that's the case I think you are way too impatient then. So you're the one who can mod and fix thing, have you ever thought of the people who can't mod and fix thing and have to live with that for years until a moder fix it? I can guarantee you a "majority" of players are like that and I am one.

Also, do you, at this point, have fully understand what and what the modding component will be capable off? There are two question: is what you want to do is no longer feasible, or it can not be done the same way or as easy as you used to. If it's the former than yes you have reason to be pissed, but somehow I doubt you have that information unless you're working for Egosoft. If it's the latter ... than well, like I said you're just too impatient. If every moders in the NWN's community carried the same attitude than the NWN2's community wouldn't exist in the first place, we thought we would get an enhanced version of the old tools and we all got flipped pretty bad. Even the most veteran among us took half a year to familiarize with it. It seems at the core you're complaining that you won't be able to import your old script to the new game on day one, which with due respect, I don't find that reasonable in any capacity.

[apricotslice]

Ok, point taken. I'm impatient.

I've also had a lot of expereince where egosoft releases is concerned, and they fill me full of foreboding.

I might also point out that I stopped discussing this game years ago, and only read the modding forums now. In fact, I dont read them too often either now.

So my focus is purely modding. Ok, I need to reorient that focus for the new game, but reread the second sentence !

Nothing I've seen so far convinces me that XR will last more than a week, and more likely only several days, before I bin it as too hard, or too frustrating. Without the modding tools, the game will likely stay binned. Same way Sins did.

Sins btw, without the modding tools, lasted 2 days. With the modding tools (I found it late, so they existed for the then patch version), 2 months. Then they released a new version with no tools and none of my issues addressed, and it got binned.

I think Sins was the only other game I've bought in the last 2-3 years. I've modded to death every other game I had that could be modded.

New game coming. History of too hard to play and too frustrating to play from this producer. No modding tools and most of them when they come out I already know I cant use.

So, feeling of dread.

[Mightysword]

Ok, I need to reorient that focus for the new game, but reread the second sentence !

I did give a paragraph reply to your second sentence in the first reply though, unless you want me to elaborate further


As for the rest of your post ... again you'll have to cite me where did you get all that info, or assumption from. The only source I got is the stick on this forum, and it seems to be contrary to what you're claiming.

[apricotslice]

again you'll have to cite me where did you get all that info, or assumption from. The only source I got is the stick on this forum, and it seems to be contrary to what you're claiming.

Multiple threads before this forum was created, in the TC modding forum.

Modding for XR has been discussed and had official comments on, since the moment the game was officially announced.

Offhand, I cant point you to them without having to find them first.

[apricotslice]

See this thread :

http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php?p=3687600

[Mightysword]

So I read through the entire thread, and I don't see any differences from what we're been talking, if anything it seems only re-enforce most of my points:

- It seems you admit that, at the end, the problem is just you NOT wanting to learn the new trick, you admit yourself in that thread. I think LV put it best, the feeling of every thing you know and comfort with will go away in the next game is dreadful. I was on the same boat, i horned my skill in NWN, when NWN2 came I took the pain in re-learning everything. When DA came, I just ... gave up since I don't really want to go through it again. BUT, a very BIG but, to me that's natural, I never blame the game for that. I let others carry the touches this time and enjoy their work. In the end, it's not the game fault, a new game, and new engine, a new API - to tell the people who spent time design and create the package that it's their fault you can't be bother to learn the new stuff is ... again, not reasonable.


- I don't see they "confirmed" that they won't release a tool on release so I guess it's just assumption on your part. What Apoch said just confirm what I told you earlier, making a toolset is not as simple as most people tend to think. It's naturally that they will have to focus on their core game, and the toolset second. It's not like the dev after finish making the game just gonna say "ok, we just gonna pack all the tools we use and give it to the player as a mod packet". To give you an example, there were a certain thing in the DA toolset that didn't work right (can't remember, but I think it's the water level) because we didn't have a plug in for it. The reason it wasn't included is because that plug-in was part of a commercial package so Bioware were trying to get the permission from the vendor to release it to the public ... and the vendor didn't want it. So months people try to figure out work around until Bioware create a way that doesn't need the plug-in. Like I said, a toolset is not something as simple as the dev used, some maybe, but for the most part it's something they go out of the way to make using their resource.

- Btw, seeing the demo for the AI's is interesting since I recognize the format. I was involved for a period of time in one of the AI's project for Total War: Medieval II on TWCenter. Maybe this time it's my turn to mod?


- And, again, one of the dev said the samething I said: maybe this time you will play the game instead of modify it on day one. Maybe your problem is you buy the game to mod instead of to play, but like you said, it might be time for a change heh?

[apricotslice]

No, its not about not wanting to learn the new way of scripting. I've already proved I cant. I'm an old cobol programmer. The MD code is too alien for me. I went for months trying to get MD code to work and never got a single thing to even run the first time, let alone do what I wanted.

NWN and DA ? What are they ?

It was officially said the modding tools were not coming out. If it wasnt in that thread, then it was an earlier one.

Maybe it is your turn to mod this time. Step up to the plate, pitchers ready ! lol

No, actually, I dont use other peoples mods. I make my own to suit my own gamestyle. In some cases, I include other mini-mods into my own (like the Merge Mod). So I dont play to mod, I mod to extend the play.

I fully intend to play the game unmodded. But lets see, X2 lasted 6 months. X3 lasted a week. TC lasted 20 minutes. General trend, downwards.

Expectation for XR before some game breaking frustration I cant change makes me want to bin the game ? 2 days tops. Ok, that is my problem, but egosoft have the habit of building in gamebreaking stuff in the name of "balance". So my expectation is not unrealistic.

Edit : When I say X3 lasted a week, it actually lasted 2 days. After a day in the bin (literally), I had an idea about how to play it, which became a guide. That lasted out to a week. Then I started serious scripting and then modding. So without the idea, and the lucky happening that the bin didnt get emptied, X3 lasted a long time.

[Gman12]

Im not sure what you want from this game, it looks like your not sure what you want from this game either.

[apricotslice]

Im not sure what you want from this game, it looks like your not sure what you want from this game either.

Lets just say, I want to undo what I know the devs are putting in there that I will consider a gamebreaker. I dont know what it is, but I know something will be that bad, and I'll bash my head against it within 2 days.

Take Freelancer for example. No Joystick support. Gamebreaker for me since the plot depended on a movement system opposite of what I was used to. Cant fix. Bin game.

Every game has gamebreaker situations or methods in them. Every single one. Some of them are bugs. Some of them are "balance". Some of them are deliberately to make the game harder. Some of them are stupidity and lack of forward thinking.

The better games, allow you to change the nature of the gamebreaker situations.

Simple example, claiming. No-one in their right mind gets out of their ship in space, especially to claim a ship. Its all electronic anyhow, so why not do it from the other side of the sector where its safe ? Short range is a dev "balance thing" not a practical reality. They dont want you claiming hundreds of ships, or if you do, they make it as hard as possible. Undo gamebreaker methodology to make game easier to play. (and imo more fun). Albeit a minor one, its a good example. Another is the speed limitation. In TC, all my ships do a minimum of 500, my personal M2 does 750. Why ? Because I dont like being a sitting duck, and I dont like being a snail. The X3 speed reduction from X2 was a genuine gamebreaker. Fortunately, that could be fixed, even if it did have side effects.

[Kor'ah]

I reading apricotslice's post as "Don't change anything", but I could be misreading here. I sure he gets that X Rebirth isn't "Refined old", but rather "New New".

[apricotslice]

I reading apricotslice's post as "Don't change anything", but I could be misreading here. I sure he gets that X Rebirth isn't "Refined old", but rather "New New".

Yes your misreading.

I know the game is something new. But I also know the devs habits.

So I want to be able to undo what they think is essential and I think is stupid. And do it within days of getting the game.

Until I know its possible, I feel a dread that the life of the game will be in days instead of years.

Edit : That having been said, there is a lot of the game hints that sheer put me off. The direction they have gone, is off my plot. How far, I have to wait until it comes out to know, but instead of making me enthusiastic to buy it, everything being said about it just does the opposite. But the lack of modding immediately is the most tangible form or my unease/dread.

[Gman12]

Im confused, how can you not know what you want from xr? Whats the point of a new game if there is nothing new in it, and the things added to it you think you won't like.

I think your looking for a pack of modding tools, not a game.