In defense of the combat AI.

[Mightysword]

Before I start, please note that I'm wearing a fullbody armor made of titanium alloy with 2 layers of ceramic insulator, so feel free to frag away.

I think the general concensus around here about the AI ship control ability is that they suck so bad that it's blasphemy to entrust our asset in its care unless we enjoy losing money. I run straight into enemy fire, it doesn't dodge bullet, it doesn't bring all of its gun to bare ...etc... In short, we, as the superior being and can take out a fleet of the inferior AI without a dent on our armor, right?

Well, have anyone ever stop and wonder what actually give you that superiority? Do this, take your favoriate m2 and jump into a xenon sector, or pick a fight with an titan or a nid's m2 patrol group, don't touch the strafe drive ... then come back and tell me how you fare. Without the strafe drive, how much more competent you would think we are? Just relying on normal movement, a 1vs2 fight is "really really" pushing it and i think there are more chance of losing than winning. Even 1vs1 fight might still result in some bruise and forget the one men army against a sector.

So ... do you feel so cool now? Sometime I think the AI is not as bad as we think, sure it is bad, but not THAT bad, our superiority seem to come from a severely bias feature. It's like playing Civ, cheat in 100k of gold and then complain the AI sucks because they can't keep up


Ok, shield up, come at me!

[Sareth01]

Heh no need for the armor with me man, i completely agree. The only thing I ever had trouble out strafing was those very fast xenon fighter weapons that could hit you no matter how much you strafed.
They suck down your shield and then you were pretty much screwed!
Would be interesting if they added a strafe drive for the AI too.

[caleb]

Interesting post... But the AI does suck. It would be better if the AI could strafe while on an attack run. Combat AI was far too simple, that I think even old games like Tie fighter or X-wing had better AI. The targets would start quickly dodging when hit by laser fire, and crashes were pretty infrequent even in intense dogfights (they happen, but much less often).

And navigation was much better... Bombers would not crash against capital ships when attacking

There are just so many problems with the navigation and combat AI in the old X games... Is is pretty bad

[Mightysword]

The reason I'm more on the case of the player using it rather than the AI not using it because the strafe drive by itself is a pretty broken player. In term of physic, it's way too fast. This is why when you play with mod like CMOD or others rebalance that tune the weapon in way that make the strafe drive usless or have minimal use, you will realize a human "at his best" only slightly better than the "stupid AI" when going head to head.

[Kitty]

Let's tell it simply : with the correct dev effort, an AI could beat more than 99% of players in nearly any game I know. But its no fun being ass-kicked every other second. In a game, we want to win, but we want to believe it's because we're good.

As a sidenote, I would have liked in X3TC that the scanner could tell me the list of visible guns of a ship from a (relatively) safe distance, not after I get burned by these powerfull flame throwers. It's no fun being killed in a second or winning in a handfull of second just on a dice roll, but it could be fun allowing for strategies : when to attack, who to attack, when to flee...

[dougeye]

i think alot of people talk in the sense that the ai is the same code we have seen in previous X games, now im not saying the new engine/ combat Ai coding is going to be flawless but come on guys times have moved on, new engine, i should think new Ai code aswell! probly advanced enough to assess situations rather than fly blindly into an armada. it is possible! lets just wait and see what the outcome is before judging

[Kor'ah]

I fare very well without strafe drive. Just sit back 30km away and spam missiles. Oh, wait....that's something else the AI can't do worth a damn.

[Scoob]

Oh yeah, the players ability to strafe was almost an "I win" key in ANY ship.

One of the first mods I did was to increase fighter class weapons bullet speeds so strafing DIDN'T work. It also made the AI appear to be a lot smarter as it started hitting it targets more!

Still, the AI in XR is going to be great right? I mean, one on one in equally equipped ships (drones) it's going to be 50/50 right? Here's hoping. With capital ship battle I expect tactics to play a greater role, along with the appropriate loadout for the task at hand, as well as having a load of buddies (crew) along in their ships to help UN-even the odds in your favour!

I suspect it's possible to make an AI pilot near-perfect, after all the AI has available to it more information. This about it, you know what you see and your sensors tell you. However IT knows EXACTLY where you are at all times, it knows you're behind it, it knows you're targetting it, it knows what missile you currently have selected and how many, it knows your full weapon loadout, speed, manueverability etc. etc. More and more of this information can be made available to the AI "pilot" in order to make it look far more competent... but too much of that isn't fun.

Personally, from a player perspecitve, I'd love to be able to know if I'm up against an "ace" or just a seasoned pilot, or maybe just a rookie based on how he reacts, his response time to MY moves etc. For me it would be joy to see three of my well-equipped ships (drones) taken out by a SINGLE ship purely due to it's piloting ability and NOT simply having more shields or bigger guns...

Also, regarding the scanner, I'd like to have to get up CLOSE (in a fighter vs. fighter scenario) in order to be able to scan through a ships shield and know what he's packing. With capital ships we can guess that their sensors are more powerful so could scan a smaller ship from a greater distance. OR, with the "specialised" drones, maybe one small drone can do this for us...

Scoob.

[Syock]

Games like this are a funny mix between future and past. We want to be in space with high speed but with WWII dogfighting. The strafe drive was a way for us to simulate juking in an aircraft. It isn't cheating or a hack in dogfighting. The problem was that the computer couldn't do it too, although other space sim's have had AI that could.

I am not sure how X series combat would be with it, since we had such a huge range of speed, maneuverability and firepower unlike the relatively even matches in other games. If an M3 was able to dodge M5's then it may have just devolved into who has the most missiles with the best range, which is what happened in real life.

[Chris0132]

If the AI were good it'd be no fun.

The point of the AI is to attack me one at a time so I can dispatch them with one volley and they can catch fire, start barrel rolling, then crash into the side of a space station in a trail of smoke and fire.

That's what mooks are FOR. To make the hero look cool.

[A5PECT]

But the more powerful the mooks, the cooler the hero looks when he defeats them.

Besides, from a gameplay standpoint it gets boring if the enemies are too easy.

Let's not forget that the AI controls your mooks, too. It's no fun commanding an army of incompetence.

[Master of the Blade]

The problem with the AI is not so much that it cannot fight - as Mightysword says in the OP, it's very easy to die if you don't use strafing (although I remember in X2 randomly pressing the arrow keys worked pretty well ) - the problem is that it's suicidal, and makes very half-hearted evasive attempts (there's evidence in the script editor that evasive manouvers are at th very least coded), meaning it comes across as bad - all the more noticable when it's your ships who fly straight into that stream of plasma death you'd easily notice and avoid.

Sounds like the AI's being touched up for Rebirth, so with a bit of luck(?) complaints will go from 'the AI sucks' to 'the AI kicks my arse!'.

[Virtualaughing]

I have mixed feelings about the whole thing.
Never saw any NPC which can take care of incomming weaponfire. I would like to see AI ships which approach friendly/neutral objects with caution.
I can approach a base which is under attack and shoot the attackers with my guns even if they are in the same direction.

An autopilot which can choose the best method to fly close to another ship and "bring" the target to weaponrange. Im speaking about capships with difficulties of flying close enough to fighters for the short range weapons.

[A5PECT]

I have mixed feelings about the whole thing.
Never saw any NPC which can take care of incomming weaponfire.

Take a look at an old Reunion mod, Fight Command Software Mk 3.

Video

It shows that not only is it possible to create effective dogfighting AI, but you could do it within the architecture of the old X3R engine.

So we know that it's very possible, we just have to see if Egosoft actually goes out and does it.

[Chris0132]

But the more powerful the mooks, the cooler the hero looks when he defeats them.

Besides, from a gameplay standpoint it gets boring if the enemies are too easy.

Let's not forget that the AI controls your mooks, too. It's no fun commanding an army of incompetence.

All mooks are equally powerful, they are all killable by the hero without significant losses. Some of them just look cooler while they do it.

As I see it games have two difficulty levels, possible and impossible. Either you win a fight, and the game is easy, or you can't win a fight, and the game is too hard. The only difference between the two is how long it takes, and that gives you things like 'easy, but over too quickly' and 'easy, but took too long' and 'takes too long to be at all practical'.

If you want the fights to take longer, add more enemies, or add bigger enemies that explode in cooler ways. Or add enemies that have a specific pattern you need to exploit to take them out.

Your mooks can't be more powerful than the AI mooks (at least, not too much more powerful) because otherwise you can't have any fun, because they kill everyone for you. Unless you're playing an RTS in which case your mooks are your body and when they kill enemies, you kill enemies.

Your guys are usually tougher in general though, because you build then and position them as an intelligent player, so they generally perform better, and I think that's enough.

[Mightysword]

As I see it games have two difficulty levels, possible and impossible. Either you win a fight, and the game is easy, or you can't win a fight, and the game is too hard.

Not really, that might be true for certain type of player who if he trample the enemy he think it's too easy, but when he got trampled then he declare it's impossible before trying.

The most fun out of a competition is when you come up with something of the same caliber. Think about it's like chess playing, the best opponent to "enjoy" a match is to play with are those of the same level. It's no fun playing with someone who totally outclass you, but neither it's exciting playing against someone you can win half-heartly. It's fun when you have to think and do your best, a win is not guarantee no matter how much you try, neither a lost is certain because you suck.

[caleb]

I think the combat AI should be decent enough for a good challenge. Everyone has different skill levels, so that's where the strategy comes in.

Some people are really good, and may be able to beat an AI fleet using an M5 with one LRE.

Others are pretty decent and will be able to beat the computer on a matched fight.

Others not so great, so will need superior numbers to win.

The good thing with a game like X is that we can have all that. Action oriented players will go out in the first ship they can and shoot anything that moves. Less action oriented players will build up their fleet before attacking. However, what there should be in common in call cases, is that the AI is decent and puts up a good fight (in dogfights, and tactical combat). That way all kinds of players will feel good when they win.

[Chris0132]

As I see it games have two difficulty levels, possible and impossible. Either you win a fight, and the game is easy, or you can't win a fight, and the game is too hard.

Not really, that might be true for certain type of player who if he trample the enemy he think it's too easy, but when he got trampled then he declare it's impossible before trying.

The most fun out of a competition is when you come up with something of the same caliber. Think about it's like chess playing, the best opponent to "enjoy" a match is to play with are those of the same level. It's no fun playing with someone who totally outclass you, but neither it's exciting playing against someone you can win half-heartly. It's fun when you have to think and do your best, a win is not guarantee no matter how much you try, neither a lost is certain because you suck.

If you want to use the chess example, either I have the means to predict my opponent's strategy accurately, either by seeing it on the board or by reading their playing history and using it to give context and understand probable decisions they're going to make, and if I do all that properly I am playing well and thus should recieve rewards. OR I don't have the means to do that and therefore guess randomly and hope I win, and that's pretty boring.

So, either it's easy because I know how to win, or I don't know how to win and it is impossible to do so, barring exceptional luck of course. A player closer to my skill level would make the game take longer, and thus would provide a more worthwhile experience (time spent enjoying a game to time spent setting one up) but they don't make the game any easier or harder.

So like I said, easy but takes a varying amount of time, or nor reliably possible.

I find this to be true of more or less everything in life honestly. A test is easy if you know the answers but might take several hours to complete if it's a long test, if you don't know the answers the test is not reliably possible to complete. Same goes for building a device or preparing a meal, easy if you have the instructions or the means to deduce an approach from what you see/prior knowledge, not reliably possible if you don't know how.

[Gazz]

Take a look at an old Reunion mod, Fight Command Software Mk 3.

It shows that not only is it possible to create effective dogfighting AI, but you could do it within the architecture of the old X3R engine.

But if you look at the Example XRB AI Script that was posted, you can't help noticing that it is anything but excessively advanced.
It's a rather uhh... lean... minimum possible effort affair.
Take out the white noise and you have the SE-equivalent of a 40 line script.

Doesn't look Turing-capable.

[Mightysword]

If you want to use the chess example, either I have the means to predict my opponent's strategy accurately, either by seeing it on the board or by reading their playing history and using it to give context and understand probable decisions they're going to make, and if I do all that properly I am playing well and thus should recieve rewards. OR I don't have the means to do that and therefore guess randomly and hope I win, and that's pretty boring.

Never played chess do you? Seriously playing at least

If you can always predict your opponent's move and win every time you try it, then no you're not playing with someone of your caliber, rather a lower level opponent. The point is sometime you success, sometime you don't. Sometime you manage to predict your opponent, sometime it's your move being predicted. No offense meant to you ... but I think most serious chess players would find your comment quite ... offensive

So, either it's easy because I know how to win, or I don't know how to win and it is impossible to do so, barring exceptional luck of course.

That's why you missing the whole point. Take Ninja Gaiden Black for example, on high difficulty sometime I can kill a type of enemy in 3 second flats, sometime it is me that got killed in 3 second flat, sometime we have a stand off for a good minutes or two. That's what it meant to fight someone of your caliber: if you try your best, you have a chance to win, if you don't try your best you will lose, it's unpredictable, and that's what makes it fun.

To be frank, given the history of your posts in various topic I think I'm just the opposite type of player comparing to you. If it comes down to that I "HAVE" to choose between completely and utterly trambling the AI every time and repeatedly getting spank that would turn me on hotter than going to a strip club, I would go with the latter ... as long as I'm not fighting against the system that is