Economy question to Egosoft

[spang]

Hi,
I had this question a long time ago, but seeing now a new game is developing I try my luck again, so here it is:

Since the game is generally famous of being sandbox would it be possible to make the economy part difficult? Having stations should have a cost on them force the player to deal with the fluctation of the market. Even the newly introduced stockmarket does not require to much 'think' if I am not forced to sell my shares when they are in minus profit because let's say the war cut off my factories' supply and so they push me into the red.

Could some developer spend their time just for a quick answer on whether it is planned or not. Also if others have thoughts about it, please go on.

Dead is dead is one way, but how about going bankrupt and forced to be a pirate and start again from the beginning after being a mogul could do from an otherwise great game?

[Malkuth74]

Hopefully in new game the economy will be a lot better and actually be realistic. The problem with tc is that the stations for making money have not really been a good investment since x2.

Now the only real way to make money with factories is sets or huge complexes that are so annoying and buggy to tey to build that for most I feel is a useless endaver.

Hence why x series in general is considered a extremely hard game to get into.

[spang]

I think you misunderstood me. I am actually against having stations mean profit no matter what. Worst case scenario is that they stand there without producing. Imagine a 'world' where you actually have to consider having regular expenses(like wage, ammortisation, etc.). Of course it could be modelled in a simple way. Just by having a station a (daily, weekly...) expense. It would still make you rich to have a lot of stations, however it'd also require the player to somehow'look after' his economy, react to changes, but most importantly, it could make you lose assets, cash. It could keep us, long timers, in. Especially with these wars, they could force us to restart build somewhere else because the war ruins our economy. Or even force to sell an M2 just cover the sudden loss.
What do you guys think? And, what do you developers think? Real effects of supply demand on my in-game wallet...

[cswiger]

Any station will make money at the default price levels, so long as it is producing products (ie, it's stocked up and has a place to sell it's products to). Some are better than others, and complexes have the advantage that they consume their own wares.

But if you don't want to build huge complexes, that's OK-- a simple space fuel or spaceweed fab makes a fine earner.

[Falcrack]

I approve of the OP's suggestion

[Threesixtyci]

You're not going to get a developer response, here.

And being that the repair laser was added to TC, I don't see your request ever happening. In reunion you could lose tons of money in just repairing hulls. New games just don't cater to hard core players, anymore.

[Eisenkalle]

As far as I remember there was at least one MOD in S&M Forums, which deals with the running costs issue. I do not remember the MODs name anymore. All I remember was, that parked ships also generate costs and they can have "online" or "offline" reactors (like hibernation) and will run at lower cost if shutdown. Same goes for all player stations and any other player owned assets.

I also like the idea of running costs. Miss that part of ANNO Series (esp. ANNO 1503). Where you had to produce a surplus via selling necessary goods to your people (in contrast to all other ANNO). Well at least your first 1-10 ships of class XY should be free of charge or just with a single fixed amount (harbour costs or something like that) and thats it for starters.

Well maybe the whole show would be too complex than... think about booking stuff, balance sheet etc. and it is not like there are any taxes payed/returned, nor you need a tax laywer OMG, laywers in X3! They had a lot of things to do... Money laundring, Grand Theft Ship (boarding/captures)... try to explain that in your tax declaration of your X3 company (founding "real" companies would be quite cool to! Esp. Aquiring the privilegue to get a auto nameing tag to all you company assests!).

[X2-Illuminatus]

As far as I remember there was at least one MOD in S&M Forums, which deals with the running costs issue.

Operating Costs by Cadvan. You will have to pay a certain amount of Credits for each station (as long as It's producing) and ship each hour.

[cswiger]

Getting your hull dinged in your first fight as a newbie player, and not being able to afford repairs was a major turnoff to players coming from more forgiving games. It's the same reason many pinball machines used to give a ~10 second ball save.

And I'd say that X3:TC had plenty of hard-core moments, just with a different focus than X3:R. For example, completing the Hub mission in vanilla is pretty hard-core. Only one out of about 200 players has managed:

http://steamcommunity.com/stats/X3Terra ... ievements/

[ Well, it also claims that only one out of three players managed to pass flight school. Maybe they were using the auto-pilot...? ]

And while the Xenon LX got nerfed hard from R to TC, having many Xenon fighers use PBEs rather than PACs and HEPTs, plus that [censored] Xenon Q made fighting the Xenon a lot tougher. I also seem to recall needing a fleet of a half-dozen capships to deal with the Kha'ak in the last Final Fury mission in Sector 926...

[Eisenkalle]

As far as I remember there was at least one MOD in S&M Forums, which deals with the running costs issue.

Operating Costs by Cadvan. You will have to pay a certain amount of Credits for each station (as long as It's producing) and ship each hour.

Yeah, thank you.

That is excactly the MOD, I am talking about.

And I'd say that X3:TC had plenty of hard-core moments, just with a different focus than X3:R. For example, completing the Hub mission in vanilla is pretty hard-core. Only one out of about 200 players has managed:

http://steamcommunity.com/stats/X3Terra ... ievements/

I finished the Hub already... twice. Now via Steam the third time, but I have to deliver Mahi Ma back to Kingdoms End (currently too lazy to do), to finish the HUB-Plot and get the achievement.

[jperry13]

Spang,
I am with you on the the continued OH with regard to station. It always struck me as strange that no matter where I set up a factory it would make a profit as long as it continued to produce. (As cswiger pointed out earlier.)
But perhaps Egosoft decided the best way to handle that issue would be to front load the facility OH costs in the capital cost of the facility itself. Not very realistic, true.... but it's plausible depending on whether or not you wanted to keep inflation in check.

I think a lot of things were waved at with regard to the economic model in this game engine. If the engine was forced to keep track of the the economy of the universe in real time... as well as ware inventory (which I think it does) it would probably put a lot more strain on the CPU.

Just a few thoughts.

[Threesixtyci]

I can think of one way to make earning money, more of a hassle. It's the Port Royal 2's system of buying and selling goods.

In X3 the buy rate doesn't changes when you buy in bulk. You can buy a whole factory's supply at the lowest price, as long as you move over all the goods at once. But, in Port Royal 2 the price changes as you move goods over, regardless if you buy in bulk or not. So, in Port Royal 2 your profit margin is only guaranteed when you buy goods from ports that have an excess of 50%, and if you leave behind the goods below 50% of their max holdings.

But then again, that would play havoc on the AI traders of X3.... MK3's included.

As for the Hub in TC... it's really not that hard, thanx to the Bonus Pack and CAG. CAG's can pretty much do all the work for you, it ends up just being a matter of letting time pass in the game. And lots of it.....

And the Steam Achievements aren't a good measuring stick for TC. Too many people here hate steam to bother with it, and a good many don't even bother with vanilla....

[jperry13]

That would be very annoying. I think they are basing it on the idea that you are making a bulk purchase or sale anyway. One of the things that annoyed me about Port Royal 2 is that only the port you are selling/buying at can adjust the price on the run like that. If the item is in demand, why couldn't you, the seller raise the price as your stock decreased, just like they do when you are buying from them. LOL..... of course that would be price gouging, but hey....

I can think of one way to make earning money, more of a hassle. It's the Port Royal 2's system of buying and selling goods.

In X3 the buy rate doesn't changes when you buy in bulk. You can buy a whole factory's supply at the lowest price, as long as you move over all the goods at once. But, in Port Royal 2 the price changes as you move goods over, regardless if you buy in bulk or not. So, in Port Royal 2 your profit margin is only guaranteed when you buy goods from ports that have an excess of 50%, and leave behind goods once you buy 50% of the max capacity of their holdings.

But then again, that would play havoc on the AI traders of X3.... MK3's included.

As for the Hub in TC... it's really not that hard, thanx to the Bonus Pack and CAG. CAG's can pretty much do all the work for you, it ends up just being a matter of letting time pass in the game. And lots of it.....