[TC] [Guide] how to figure out what to put on ships that are going to fight OOS

[Catra]

THIS IS A GUIDE FOR TERRAN CONFLICT. ALBION PRELUDES OOS MECHANICS ARE DIFFERENT, HENCE WHY IT SAYS [TC] IN THE TITLE.
thank you for not pointing out that its different in ap.

so. fairly straight forward:

OOS = Out Of Sector, which means whichever sector your ship you are piloting isnt in.
OOS combat is a 30 second turn base shootfest.

the rules:

- all weapons are instahit. no exceptions.
- ammo based weaponry will cause non ammo based weapons to not shoot.
- your ship chooses between 1 missile and 1 volley, so if your missile does less damage than your volley, do not risk it.
- laser energy is not taken into account
- turrets do not exist OOS, ergo turret commands are pointless, as theres nothing to command.
- everything is set at a 3 KM range.
- RoF isnt taken into account
- the fastest ship goes first

TL;DR / math is tedious & hard version of the formula:
sort the list by shield value, and then equip the first weapon that you see(that isnt the mobile drilling system or any of the beam weapons) thats also on your ships weapon compatability list.

the formula:

take the damage per shot value of all your weapons equipped. add them all up. then a dice, ranging from .5 - 16 is rolled. thats how much additional / divided by damage your ship is going to cause that turn.

(so the formula would look like: H/S DPS*(insert number of guns)*.5-16. so a discoverer with 4 IREs would, at best, do 14,080 shield damage / 1344 Hull Damage)

legend:
H/S = Hull / Shield
DPS = Damage Per Shot

[Gazz]

In the TC vanilla game, all laser damage that a ship does is multiplied by the number of turrets in addition to the above.
(don't tell me how silly that is)


Area lasers (PSG + PBG) do minimal damage OOS because they depend on the physical shape of the bullet to generate damage - a shape that does not exist OOS.


Missiles are not automatic hits but I don't know the conditions.


An active missile defense of any kind is not possible. Missiles that are calculated to hit... hit.

- ammo based weaponry will cause non ammo based weapons to not shoot.

Only if they are out of ammo.

- the fastest ship goes first

Not always.
On average, the faster ship gets the "first round" - often leaving nothing but glowing wreckage, which doesn't fire back.

- your ship chooses between 1 missile and 1 volley, so if your missile does less damage than your volley, do not risk it.

Ambiguous, because missile boats do fire a "volley" of missiles when attacking OOS.

[Morkonan]

I know I'm a noob, but I just have to say - Can we (rather, those of you with the True Knowledge) be sure to come to a definitive and final agreement on OOS mechanics, and if Catra is good enough to do it, keep the OP updated so that it can, itself, be used as a guide without Those That Shall Come After us being forced to grab a colander and sift through the thread, hoping to find gems of Truth?

You guys know there are fifty-eleven OOS threads out there. The reason is that there isn't one source, once post, one LIST of OOS mechanics that can be referred to by Those That Shall Come After... At the very least, the issues can be explained, the mechanics shown and then the basics updated in the OP (If Catra will do it) so the thread could at least qualify to get included in the Resource/Guide sticky.

Just a note: I read some old threads regarding previous X games and the dominance of massed M5s in OOS. The discussion was centered around the mechanics in X3TC preventing that because, while speed does have something to do with it, it appears that fast fighters were not as guaranteed to get the first shot as they used to be. So, massing them was no longer as desirable. No, I don't have a link and do not believe there was any, definitive, answer on the issue in that thread.

But, the logical revelation here concerning OOS "active missile defense" ala Mosquito Missile Defense being useless due to the mechanics of "If it is calc'd to hit, it will hit." is sort of disappointing. However..

1) Are Mosquito Missiles in cargo holds, not also "equipped" in the Weapons Menu, counted as a "Fire Turn" in the calcs?

IOW, will I cripple my fighters and other ships that are scripted to use Mosquito Missile Defense and have those missiles in their cargo holds? (Note: The basic instructions say that the missiles will fire from the hold, without being equipped as a "Missile" in the Weapons loadout.)

Note: I read that OOS combat that is viewed by the player switches to 5 second rounds. Thus, in certain situations, it was argued it would be advantageous to not view certain OOS combats. (Though, that seems a bit pointless to me, since it is game-content and we all like game-content. But, is this time-interval change correct for OSS combat rounds?)

[Catra]

-snip-

[Asmosis]

so a kestrel for example with 2 IRE's on primary and 2 PAC's on the rear turret would be calculated as 2xIRE x2 due to the turret mechanics?

[Catra]

no. it would be 2x IRE and 2x PAC. thats it.

[Gazz]

so a kestrel for example with 2 IRE's on primary and 2 PAC's on the rear turret would be calculated as 2xIRE x2 due to the turret mechanics?

In TC it is calculated as 4x IRE + 4x PAC.

A ship with 2 IRE + 2 PAC all as cockpit lasers is calculated as 2x IRE + 2x PAC.

[Morkonan]

so a kestrel for example with 2 IRE's on primary and 2 PAC's on the rear turret would be calculated as 2xIRE x2 due to the turret mechanics?

In TC it is calculated as 4x IRE + 4x PAC.

A ship with 2 IRE + 2 PAC all as cockpit lasers is calculated as 2x IRE + 2x PAC.

Sounds like it is a way to give a bonus to turreted platforms without having to add something fancy that needed to be normalized, later.

[Morkonan]

A vital question for me still remains:

Missiles are calc'd to hit or not hit based solely on their own formula, regardless of Missile Defense. If they are calc'd to hit, they hit.

However, ships either fire missiles or lasers, not both, and that counts as their action for the OOS combat round.

Missile Defense Mosquito is supposed to fire at incoming missiles. But, this makes no difference to the OOS combat mechanics.



BUT, does the action of Mosquito missiles firing under Mosquito Missile Defense count towards the ship's combat round contribution?



If so, that means that ships under Missile Defense Mosquito command have the chance of one of the lowest contributions towards damage, even if they're a fully outfitted M2.

Possible Caveat - Mosquito missiles do not have to be equipped in the "Missile" weapon slot in order to fire under the Mosquito Missile Defense command. That might have something to do with them not being considered as a combat round turn in OOS combat. But, if it doesn't, then every ship I have is going to have its Mosquitos yanked...

(I'll watch for replies and take this question to the mod forum, if necessary, to get a rock-solid answer.)

[Gazz]

BUT, does the action of Mosquito missiles firing under Mosquito Missile Defense count towards the ship's combat round contribution?

An active missile defense of any kind is not possible.

Not possible. Does not happen. Can not happen. Does not exist in any shape or form.

[Morkonan]

BUT, does the action of Mosquito missiles firing under Mosquito Missile Defense count towards the ship's combat round contribution?

An active missile defense of any kind is not possible.

Not possible. Does not happen. Can not happen. Does not exist in any shape or form.

I understand that. I am not asking the question you are responding to..


I have seen ship's inventories of Mosquito missiles depleted after OS battles. These missiles were set to be used with the Mosquito Defense system. They were not "equipped" as a Missile, simply stored in the hold of the ship. Of course, by the above, these missiles would not have any effect as some sort of "active missile defense" due to the way missile hits are calculated. I am not asking about that...

1) Do these missiles actually fire during combat rounds?

(I don't care about whether or not they impact Missile Hit probabilities. I want to know if they are supposed to fire OS, anyway,as the script dictates.)

2) If so, are they counted as that unit's Combat Round Contribution, just like they had been a missile or a gun that was fired?

(Because, if they are firing and if that firing is resulting in their being counted as the firing unit's Combat Contribution for that combat round, then it's one of the lowest possible DPS in the game.. regardless if it's an M2 or a TS firing them. And, since each Unit in the Combat Round only gets one contribution to the total, a Mosquito Missile is pretty darn crappy.. It could explain why some of my ships appear to do almost no damage to the attacking target until later in the combat.)

The point is - Do I now have to go through and take Missile Defense Mosquito off all my ships, so they don't end up with the worst DPS in OS combat in the game?

[Catra]

mork, i answered yourt question in the OP:

your ship chooses between 1 missile and 1 volley,

[Morkonan]

mork, i answered yourt question in the OP:

your ship chooses between 1 missile and 1 volley,

You might have answered my question in the OP. However, that depends entirely on how the OS calcs treat Mosquito Missile Defense.

Here is why I am asking the question and why I am asking it in the manner I've written.

In many games, things are not always treated in the game's mechanics as they appear "on paper." For instance, some things are treated as "attributions" or "effects" instead of what they appear to be in the manual or the item's description. So, instead of actually possessing a "weapon" that has its own uses, a thing or character would possess an attribute that is counted as a variable in some sort of calculation, but doesn't really act as other weapon's do in the game's mechanics. It is because of this and because of X3's wealth of legacy code that I am posing this question in this particular way.

The Mosquito missile was introduced in the Bonus Pack. It's part of a later code-set that was incorporated into X3 and it is a new, unique, weapon and weapon script, as far as I know. There's nothing else like it, "on paper, as described by the in-game information available to the player", that is similar in the X3 base game. It may not be treated as a normal missile in certain game mechanics. Codewise, Turret Commands like "Missile Defense" might be similar in how they are activated, but we also know that turrets don't matter in OS calculations.

The Mosquito missile is not required to be "armed" in the Missile slot under the Advanced/Weapon's menu in order to function with the Mosquito Missile Defense script. This is the only so-described conventional missile weapon that does not need to be armed in that slot in order to be "fired" (by a script, in this case) by a ship. (Boarding pods may also be handled differently, but I'm discussing OS.) IS ships thus armed can continue to use their conventionally armed missiles in that slot, while still benefiting from the Mosquitoes stored in their cargo holds if they are running the Mosquito Missile Defense script.

We know that a ship chooses to either fire a Missile or fire a Laser in OS calcs. However, a Mosquito missile does not have to be armed in the Missile slot in order to work and it will be fired by the Mosquito Missile Defense script, if the ship is running it. But, "on paper" it is described as a "missile" and can also be fired conventionally, after being armed in the Missile slot. In OS calcs, a ship chooses to fire a missile or a laser, yet it can not choose to fire a Mosquito missile that is not armed in the Missile slot, as far as I know, by itself. (IF ships switch out their missile loads in vanilla X3 during OS combat, it'd be nice to know. Though, I don't see why they would because range is unified.) The only way a Mosquito Missile not armed in the Missile slot could fire "on paper, as described in the documentation," would be if the Mosquito Missile Defense script was running.

According to my Mosquito missile inventory for a particularly active Heavy Centaur in a group protecting a factory, that ship has lost least 20 Mosquito missiles in between save games, presumably fired during OS combat operations. That ship does not have the Mosquito missiles shown as being armed in the Missile slot, right now. It may have had them armed that way in the past, I don't know and I have not had a chance to do any tests. But, I do know that the Mosquito missile inventory is not at its starting inventory levels when she was loaded out and the only combat that ship has seen has been OS combat.

The reason I am asking this question and asking it in this way is because the situation with Mosquito Missiles points to a unique situation and could also mean trouble for OOS calculations where missiles are involved. I don't know - I don't know X3's extensive scripting language nor how the Mosquitoes are actually handled under the Mosquito Missile Defense script. I don't know if the script is even called into action when a missile attack is launched in OS combat. It may not be, but then I have to account for Mosquito Missile inventory discrepancies in some other way, if that is the case.

There could be a variety of reasons why the Mosquito Missile Defense would not fire a missile in OS combat. But, that would not account for the discrepancy in inventories I have between saved games in the one ship I have examined.

Lastly - A possible example of the problem I am investigating with my question: A ship is in OS combat. It conventionally has a choice to choose between firing guns or firing missiles. However, the Mosquito Missile Defense script is running and the Mosquito missile fires during the round due to missile fire being initiated, for no effect at all, simply because some sort of Missile attack took place and one is deducted from the ship's inventory. Since this is counted as that ship's Combat Contribution for the round, due to it having fired a "missile" the ship contributes no other action. This will continue in every OS combat round where that ship encounters a Missile attack, due to the automatic activation of the script and the ship will continue to contribute ineffective Mosquito missile fire whenever a missile attack takes place in OS combat until it runs out of Mosquito missiles.


If I can find a way, I will test to see if the Mosquito inventories are reduced in a ship in OS combat, to be sure that nothing else could have accounted for that ship's reduction in inventory levels. But, I don't know how to set something like that up without modding my vanilla game. So, I'll have to find a situation where missiles will likely be fired. If the inventory levels are reduced, I want to know what happens to them and if they effect the ship's contribution for the combat round.

This really is a question about a unique game mechanic in a unique situation. I am not being purposefully obtuse.

[Alith-Ahnar]

OOS combatands don't care if mosquitos are set for missile defence. It is a missile the ship can fire it it will fire it simple as it is no magic here.

[Vim Razz]

Try setting Missile Fire Probability to 0% if your OOS ships are going to run MDM.

Also, just fyi --

The Mosquito missile was introduced in the Bonus Pack. It's part of a later code-set that was incorporated into X3 and it is a new, unique, weapon and weapon script, as far as I know.

The mosquito is one of the original missiles from X-BTF. They just sort of became obsolete, as I understand it (I'm still working though the old games), and were repurposed by the bonus pack later.

[Morkonan]

OOS combatands don't care if mosquitos are set for missile defence. It is a missile the ship can fire it it will fire it simple as it is no magic here.

I tested as indicated earlier.

If set to standard 5%, the ship will fire the Mosquitoes as part of its attack, apparently. If set to 0%, the ship does not appear to use any Mosquitoes, so I would have to assume that the Mosquito Missile Defense command is inactive in OOS combat. I don't have any way to confirm whether the opposing ships were actually firing missiles, though. But, in several engagements with fighters and against M6 craft, no Mosquitoes disappeared from my Thresher's inventory. (I armed it with only a single HEPT for tests.)

I wasn't claiming there was any "magic" involved, btw. I just wanted confirmation on a particular sticking point with MDM and combat rounds. IF the MDM script does not function at all during OS combat, then there's no basis for my question. But, I can't solidly confirm it myself. That's why I am asking the question. So far, in my tests, it is "unswitched" or otherwise does not appear to work in OS combat. I don't know how to set up a sandbox with the editor in order to definitively test whether the MDM tries to function in OS combat, even though MDM is completely useless in OS.

And, thus, the only acceptable result, regardless of any of this is in keeping with the theme and OP of the thread: "THIS IS A GUIDE FOR TERRAN CONFLICT. ALBION PRELUDES OOS MECHANICS ARE DIFFERENT, HENCE WHY IT SAYS [TC] IN THE TITLE."

To wit - Mosquito Missiles and Mosquito Missile Defense : MDM has no effect in OS combat, regardless if it tries to run or not. Also, any ships with Mosquito missiles in their cargo hold, regardless if they are "armed" in the Missile slot of their Weapon screen, may decide to use them to attack as they are still a "valid" missile for them to use. To prevent absurdly low DPS numbers due to ships choosing to fire Mosquito missiles in anger in OS combat rounds, do not arm any ships intended for OS duty with Mosquito missiles or, if you wish them armed with these for possible IS combat, switch their Missile Fire Probability to "0" percent under their Command menu. If they are a ship that is primarily armed with missiles for OS combat, do not equip them with Mosquito Missiles.

In short, never equip any ship that will primarily engage in OS combat with Mosquito missiles for any reason at all unless they do not have a better weapon than a couple of Mass Drivers, DPS-wise. A Mosquito Missile does 200 dmg. A Mass Driver does 15 dmg to the hull of a ship, only. An Impulse Ray Emitter does 220 Shield + 21 Hull damage for a total of 241 dmg per shot. Per round, a Mosquito Missile is not better than an IRE, but better than a single Mass Driver in DPS.

Over the next few days, I'll be running through all 500+ ships in my fleet, telling them to dump their Mosquito missiles overboard as they are no longer authorized for general use aboard Mork Co vessels. A few, select, special duty ships will be allowed to keep them.

The mosquito is one of the original missiles from X-BTF. They just sort of became obsolete, as I understand it (I'm still working though the old games), and were repurposed by the bonus pack later.

Thanks for that history. What I intended to convey was that Mosquito Missile Defense was not an original part of X3 and was a unique, mechanics wise, addition to the game that hadn't existed in the X3 vanilla game. I had thought it was one of the community scripts, though. But, if they snatched the code from X-BTF and just reworked it, I guess it doesn't matter. The end result is the same - Don't put Mosquito missiles on any OS ships armed with IREs or better. If so armed, you can change them to 0% on missile probability. (That goes for Traders, too. Their single turret with an IRE is better than a hold full of Mosquitoes.)

[Catra]

A Mosquito Missile does 200 dmg.

to the shield of the target.
2,000MJ(200,000 KJ) shields needs 1000-1100 mosquitoes.
1000x30 seconds is 3000 (derp) seconds.
you will die long before then.

A Mass Driver does 15 dmg to the hull of a ship, only.

even with just 1, it is already ahead of the mosquito in killing the ship it was assigned to kill due to the mosquito needing to breakthrough the shield first.

and besides, noone uses 1 mass driver. =P

An Impulse Ray Emitter does 220 Shield + 21 Hull damage for a total of 241 dmg per shot

not how the calculations work.

it does 220 shield damage.
21 hull damage.

I don't know how to set up a sandbox with the editor in order to definitively test whether the MDM tries to function in OS combat,

it does not work OOS, as there is absolutely nothing to shoot down.

there is no physical anything for the MDM script to target, ergo it will not fire.

[Morkonan]

A Mosquito Missile does 200 dmg.

to the shield of the target.
2,000MJ(200,000 KJ) shields needs 1000-1100 mosquitoes.
1000x30 seconds is 3000 (derp) seconds.
you will die long before then.

Exactly why no ship dedicated for OS should have them in their cargo hold unless their chance to fire missiles is set to 0 percent.

even with just 1, it is already ahead of the mosquito in killing the ship it was assigned to kill due to the mosquito needing to breakthrough the shield first.

Gotcha. I glanced at your formula above and misunderstood the separation of damage between hull and shield you derived at the end.

not how the calculations work.

it does 220 shield damage.
21 hull damage.

Understood, now. From this -"(so the formula would look like: H/S DPS*(insert number of guns)*.5-16. so a discoverer with 4 IREs would, at best, do 14,080 shield damage / 1344 Hull Damage) "

That really means that there would be two different calculations instead of the implied single calculation you listed. Correct? The damage isn't unified, it's separate.

One for Shield Damage for the round reading:

"(Shield Damage Per Shot (not (S)econds, correct?) x Number of Lasers) X RND .5 to 16 = Damage for the Round to Hull"

Then, a second formula would be calculated for Hull Damage, if applicable, using the same variables. The final results are applied to the target ship's shield, for applicable damage, first. Only once that has dropped on the target ship will Hull damage totals be applied. (Efficient, since the game doesn't have to calc hull damage until the target's shields are down.)

But, I assume Shield penetrators like Mass Drivers would go through the shields of the target ship? Uh.. except, there's no way to differentiate that sort of damage using your formula. So, either "special effects" like the shield penetration of Mass Drivers is simply not taken into account (not surprising at all) or there's a separate calculation for that sort of damage? (Or, the formula presented is not accurate.)

Hmm. Energy doesn't matter OS, so weapons that sap energy regen wouldn't have any effect on the calcs. But, weapons that slow the speed of the ship.. I suppose they wouldn't have an effect if only the first opening volley takes speed into account with a Round Robin exchange taking place afterward. But, if Speed is taken into account in sort of an "Initiative Roll" per OS Combat Round, then Speed would be a viable stat for OS combat to target. However, since things are greatly simplified in OS combat, it's likely that speed-reduction effects are not included at all and only the default speed of the ship is used. Correct?

it does not work OS, as there is absolutely nothing to shoot down.

there is no physical anything for the MDM script to target, ergo it will not fire.

Understood. There are currently hundreds of orphaned Mosquito missile cargo containers floating around the universe in my current X game due to the new revelations.. I hope someone cleans that mess up.

[Gazz]

If set to standard 5%, the ship will fire the Mosquitoes as part of its attack, apparently.

Definitely true for TC, because Mossies are completely generic missiles.
The AP scripts no longer use them to attack ships.

[Morkonan]

If set to standard 5%, the ship will fire the Mosquitoes as part of its attack, apparently.

Definitely true for TC, because Mossies are completely generic missiles.
The AP scripts no longer use them to attack ships.

And, that's because missiles now have hull point values, correct? They can now be targeted in OS combat. Though, I imagine that adds a little bit more load on OS calcs. But, I'm not a code-monkey, so I can't speak to bandannas..