what exactly different with OOS in AP?

[nap_rz]

I heard the OOS system a bit different in AP, what exactly?

[CBJ]

Basically the difference is that the calculations the game makes to "simulate" combat OOS have been changed to take better account of different weapon types. Previously the problem was that any adjustments we made to the algorithms tended to improve the simulation for one ship or weapon type while making it worse for another, so in addition to adjusting the algorithms we also introduced additional per-weapon OOS damage data to help us fine-tune the weapons individually.

Credit for these changes is due almost entirely to Gazz who not only gave us the base data to work from but also did a lot of empirical testing using scripts created specifically to compare IS and OOS results.

[SevenKiller]

On the subject of weapons damage OOS, is every weapon slot calculated? so if a ship only has half the guns it can use equipped will its OOS damage be half what it could be, or is the listed weapons energy the only thing used? is the speed of a ship used at all, so say when an M4+ kills a LT OOS is the slow turn rate of the tower vs the speed of the ship also added into the mix?

[Gazz]

On the subject of weapons damage OOS, is every weapon slot calculated?

Yes.

is the speed of a ship used at all, so say when an M4+ kills a LT OOS is the slow turn rate of the tower vs the speed of the ship also added into the mix?

Values that make a lot of sense... are used.
A highly maneuverable ship will succeed more often in pointing it's cockpit lasers towards the enemy, resulting in a better chance to hit.
Fast / small targets are harder to hit. (surprise)
Lasers with a high bullet speed are a lot more effective against fast / small targets while bullet speed has a negligible effect vs capital ships - just like it works IS.

Flak, for instance, is considerably better at hitting an M3 than PPC will ever be.
The M3 has a decent chance to completely avoid PPC fire from that turret but when it doesn't, it's hurting time.

So yes, PPC is no longer the "always best" OOS laser.

These are only examples to give you an idea of the level of detail that is being used - and I'm not giving you the actual formulas. =P

[UnearthlyCoder]

So the basic idea is that optimizing for OOS should be similar to optimizing IS? If so, then that's great.

Have ammo based weapons been changed at all in how they are handled OOS?

[A5PECT]

I'm hoping the answer isn't too specific to give:

Can turreted ships attack multiple enemies at once, or are they still thrown in with the forward guns OOS?

[Gazz]

Have ammo based weapons been changed at all in how they are handled OOS?

If you meant to ask if they are still bugged to hell then yes, they were changed.

I'm hoping the answer isn't too specific to give:

Can turreted ships attack multiple enemies at once

Yes. That has always been one of my pet peeves.
(Try attacking one of the 1.1 Cerberus with a fighter swarm. Funfunfun!)

Since the answer is quite obvious if you look into the fight scripts, it's not that much of a secret. =P

[swatti]

My heavy centaur with various weapons lost to a pirate blastclaw... Why? I reloaded and jumped in to watch. Wanna bet who won?

In sector my laser-towers annihilate fighters but do no dmg in OOS to fighters.

I must say there seems to be HUGE improvement in overall OOS combat but i dare say, cut the weapon power ATLEAST in half for allmost all weapons. Some weapons seem to do MASSIVE dps that they could never do in-sector, even if target were standing still and just taking it.

Energy bolt chaingun OOS dmg AND hitrate when installed in those turreted heavy transports seems broken. EBC seems to do no dmg at all and the TL takes huge beating.

EDIT: One more problem-ship. The Boron Hydra, no matter what i send it against, or what i equip it with, it just dies. Once again i did most my duels agains a blastclaw. Poor fishy-tub simply "vanished" and with any setup, did no dmg to the target.

[CharlieChop]

did the blastclaw had PBG?

its know that PBG has an immense dmg multiplier in OOS..

anyone knows if it was changed? AFAIK, they only changed energy use

[Sir Warwick]

Yes - Gazz seems to have done a great job - *with guns*

However - someone needs to do something, anything to give some meaningful account of missiles - especially for M7Ms/M8s as they appear to be utterly useless in OOS cambat and certainly appear to bare no relationship whatsoever to their IS destruction ability when well stocked with missiles.

[swatti]

PBG was nerfed in dmg if im not mistaken, it does have 4x hull dmg or something tho in both... Still, its seems quite op.

And no. The ship did not have one.

[SevenKiller]

PBG was nerfed in dmg if im not mistaken, it does have 4x hull dmg or something tho in both... Still, its seems quite op.

And no. The ship did not have one.

I've seen M4s chew through 1 GJ of shields on these updated LTs so i'm not holding out much hope for corvettes for pirate patrol, maybe the skiron for its shields or just go with the cheapest frigate (teladi?).

[swatti]

Now that i think about it... Teladi Tern has PBG's, kinda silly, the whole loadout of those ships is a bit off imo but the Tern i have yet to try in OOS combat.

Many ppl still suffer from the "forget orders when hit" -bug so my ships have to be able to protect themselfs for a while just by using their turrets.

[A5PECT]

I've seen M4s chew through 1 GJ of shields on these updated LTs

A highly maneuverable ship will succeed more often in pointing it's cockpit lasers towards the enemy, resulting in a better chance to hit.
Fast / small targets are harder to hit. (surprise)

I'm guessing the LT couldn't get a shot off at the M4 because the LT has a horrible turn rate and no turrets, and the M4 has a very high top speed. The M4 lands lots of hits because the LT has a top speed of 0 m/s and the M4 has a high turn rate.

If the LT did manage to fire, the M4 probably would have died very quickly because PBCs do lots of damage and have an incredibly high projectile speed (so the M4 wouldn't be able to dodge it). So your problem was the RNG.

The only issue I see is that the M4 probably didn't have enough laser energy to take out a GJ of shielding in-sector, but I forget what the shield generator on a LT is so it may be possible.

i'm not holding out much hope for corvettes for pirate patrol, maybe the skiron for its shields or just go with the cheapest frigate (teladi?).

Well, corvettes have more guns, turrets, higher turn rates, and higher top speeds than an LT. So according to Gazz's description of the system, a corvette should be much better against an M4 than a laser tower OOS.

Provided you give it the right weapons.

From what Gazz said it sounds like there's a "probability to fire" OOS that's based on a ship's turn rate. So an individual laser tower would have a horrible hit rate on a fast target like an M4. But if you place a whole mess of laser towers close together their collective probability of landing at least one shot on the M4 would be much higher.

Except back in TC, all OOS (laser) combat took place at very close range, and since LTs can't move they tended to be singled out and unable to help other laser towers that were more than one or two kilometers away. Was this changed in AP?

[Jumee]

laser towers were always a swarm weapon I used to drop 150-200 in front of each gate facing right at it for them to be effective

EDIT: the facing part only matters IS but OOS strength is still in numbers

[SevenKiller]

I've seen M4s chew through 1 GJ of shields on these updated LTs

A highly maneuverable ship will succeed more often in pointing it's cockpit lasers towards the enemy, resulting in a better chance to hit.
Fast / small targets are harder to hit. (surprise)

I'm guessing the LT couldn't get a shot off at the M4 because the LT has a horrible turn rate and no turrets, and the M4 has a very high top speed. The M4 lands lots of hits because the LT has a top speed of 0 m/s and the M4 has a high turn rate.

If the LT did manage to fire, the M4 probably would have died very quickly because PBCs do lots of damage and have an incredibly high projectile speed (so the M4 wouldn't be able to dodge it). So your problem was the RNG.

The only issue I see is that the M4 probably didn't have enough laser energy to take out a GJ of shielding in-sector, but I forget what the shield generator on a LT is so it may be possible.

i'm not holding out much hope for corvettes for pirate patrol, maybe the skiron for its shields or just go with the cheapest frigate (teladi?).

Well, corvettes have more guns, turrets, higher turn rates, and higher top speeds than an LT. So according to Gazz's description of the system, a corvette should be much better against an M4 than a laser tower OOS.

Provided you give it the right weapons.

From what Gazz said it sounds like there's a "probability to fire" OOS that's based on a ship's turn rate. So an individual laser tower would have a horrible hit rate on a fast target like an M4. But if you place a whole mess of laser towers close together their collective probability of landing at least one shot on the M4 would be much higher.

Except back in TC, all OOS (laser) combat took place at very close range, and since LTs can't move they tended to be singled out and unable to help other laser towers that were more than one or two kilometers away. Was this changed in AP?

It was the speed the shields dropped that worried me, if 1 or 2 elites can do that much damage OOS in such a short amount of time a small pirate patrol of M3s like the blast claws and keas would give the corvette a hard time. The LTs i dropped were side by side in sector just far enough from the gate so when the ships enter and return to normal speed they are in range (good range as well, i have seen 2 LTs wipe out a 4 ship patrol of 2 M3s and 2 M4s before they even got in range to fire back) as you say RNG plays a big part OOS, hell i've even had a dukes transport give a lone LT a hard time hah.

[A5PECT]

The thing you need to remember about laser towers is they don't move. So I'm guessing in OOS mechanics they just sit there and take (almost) every shot thrown at them.

If a corvette were in the same situation it would at least have some chance to avoid taking damage. Besides, you can give a corvette PACs or PRGs, which should counter the M4's speed advantage. Ordering a few fighters to protect it would be even better.

[SevenKiller]

The thing you need to remember about laser towers it they don't move. So I'm guessing in OOS mechanics they just sit there and take (almost) every shot thrown at them.

If a corvette were in the same situation it would at least have some chance to avoid taking damage. Besides, you always give corvette patrols backup before you send them on OOS duty.

Very true i didnt think about the fact it cant move is there a way to make sure the escort fighters actually stay with the M6? at times they seem to lag behind even when the are faster.

[A5PECT]

That's just a side effect of them transferring from a non-viewed sector to a viewed one when the sector map is open. If you watch the map the fighters should catch up to the corvette shortly after you open it.

OOS small gaps like that aren't that big of a deal. In fact, it's better because the lead ship (which is usually more shielded) takes most of the fire from the first wave of attacks.

[Gazz]

Except back in TC, all OOS (laser) combat took place at very close range, and since LTs can't move they tended to be singled out and unable to help other laser towers that were more than one or two kilometers away. Was this changed in AP?

In TC there was also a bug with the OOS laser range of LT. But that was TC.


When it was time to adjust LT as a whole (both IS and OOS), I tested different types of attackers.
They are intentionally clumsy and IS they have trouble with small, agile fighters. Their laser is designed to be proportionally more effective against capital ships.

LT work well against huge ships, so-so against M6. An M6 is toast when several LT are spaced out far enough to get it into a crossfire.

So LT are good and useful - that's good - yet they are not almighty forts that snuff out everything you send against them. They have a weak spot.
That's even better.
It's very easy to design a perfect ship / weapon. It also makes for a very boring game.


And now for something completely different.
OWP use their lasers OOS. They never did before.
Oh, I know you can't build / use them, but if you could, they would work. =)