M4s are worthless

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chibajoe
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M4s are worthless

Post by chibajoe » Fri, 27. Jan 12, 17:00

At least, they seem worthless to me. On paper, they seem like a good idea: an intermediate ship between the light fighters and heavy fighters, with more survivability than the M5s and more maneuverability than the M3s. Unfortunately, what the end up being is cannon fodder: M5s will eat them alive because they are slow and have no shields, and M3s will annihilate then because... well, they're slow and have no shields.

For any given M4, I can find a M3 that is better in every respect. Sure, the M3 will cost a couple of million more, but money is so easy to come by that it really isn't a major issue. Even if it were a major issue, the speed and maneuverability of an M5 trumps the shields and guns of an M4 every single time.

Sure, there are the uber-M4s like the Asp and Eurus which seem like good ships, but a Mamba Vanguard will have them for lunch. There's only one or two M5s that I wouldn't want to go up against that Mamba in, compared to (maybe) one M4 that I would even consider taking on the Mamba in.

I really want to like the M4s, but have yet to find a reason to. Help me out here. :gruebel:

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Post by grumman » Fri, 27. Jan 12, 17:13

I share your annoyance. When I was doing my Tormented Teladi speedrun, switching from a Disco to an Elite was like running into a brick wall. Nobody would call an M5 a poor man's M3, and the same should apply to the M4.
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Post by Alan Phipps » Fri, 27. Jan 12, 17:22

Well you are only talking there about the M4 as a personal ship. Used in quantity as a remote attack force they can be devastating. Sure you will get some losses but they are cheap to replace and outfit.
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Post by gbjbaanb » Fri, 27. Jan 12, 17:45

I think the M5 is a scout ship rather than a light fighter, the M4 is the light fighter class.

The M4 can have a great effect, I ran around in a scorpion for ages before being able to afford a M3, I think the current 'favourite' for a wing of fighters in the Pike - cheap, quick to outfit, fast though I'd probably prefer the Paranid Theseus (2x25Mj shields and 4750 laser energy) if it was for a fighter wing.

for the same price, would you rather bet on a single Mamba Vanguard, or 2 Otas Solanos? (hell, I'd give 6/5 odds on a single Solano v the Mamba)

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Post by mistervec » Fri, 27. Jan 12, 17:48

M4s are far from useless, but they need to be used correctly. Don't use M4s as brawlers like you would an M3. It's not what they were designed for. Instead, take advantage of their larger cargo space and higher missile compatibility (when compared to an M5). Load them up with missiles, set them to a high percentage to use them and send them out to intercept incoming fighter wings.

When talking about M4s as player ships, rather than being AI controlled, no, they don't much to recommend them. A few are decent enough with the Solano being the only real standout.
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Post by Flozem » Fri, 27. Jan 12, 17:49

Split Scorpions with massdrivers wreak havoc at moderate price level...

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Post by chibajoe » Fri, 27. Jan 12, 18:11

Ah, see, I knew I was missing something. While they arn't all that great as a player ship, they make excellent cannon fodder. I get it now. You could probably outfit 3-4 M4s for the price of one Mamba, and in OOS combat they would completely pwn the M3.

I can live with that. Still, it's a shame that they don't make better player ships since they are some of the best looking ships in the game.

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Post by WeriTis » Fri, 27. Jan 12, 18:31

I flew around in my Sabre in TC for like half the game. And i liked it, 275m/s was neat. Today i wonder how i did get anywhere with two (later 4) EMPCs, but i killed everything up to M6s without problems.
There were the odd moments where missiles would onehit you, but other than that - and especially since i did not know a lot about the game - i liked it so much, i actually went back to the Sabre after i tried the Cutlass you get in the TC plot...
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Post by Triaxx2 » Fri, 27. Jan 12, 19:02

Judge not the M4 class on the Elite. The Elite is a POS. And I don't mean point of sale. It doesn't even do that well. When I'm picking up abandoned ships for sale, I just blow up the elites.

M4's are not bad fighters. However, unlike M3's where only a couple is more than enough to deal with most non-capital threats, M4's need to put a lot of ships on the field to deal with targets.

And they are most definitely not for OOS engagements. I've found Pikes to be hideously effective at engaging and destroying targets well above their weight class with two simple considerations. Employ them en masse, and do not 'fully' arm them. Giving them more than four PAC's is a waste of energy. On an attack run, with four they'll still run out of energy before they make the break away for collision reasons and having the longer stream of fire generates more hits per second of fire than a wider stream of fire from 6 PAC's. The L variant of the ship comes armed with exactly that and in the closely mounted center guns.

Do they have some issues? Certainly. They do get incinerated by PBG's, and HEPT eat them for breakfast. Same thing happens to frigates. So I'm not too concerned, and nine times out of ten while a target might kill one ship that way, any others with it will crush it with fire before it can orient on a second target. The other time is usually when it's a Corvette.

The Buster series are a good balance of speed, shields and firepower. Ducking under heavy capital weapons with Buster Raider, then hugging the hull as you chew it up with MD's is quite a rush. And you have to come in around PPC's, or you'll get toasted by flak. Which again isn't necessarily any better survived by M3's, or M6's.

Scorpions are the fastest M4's around and are positively tiny. They're very hard to hit and easy to dodge fire with. Admittedly, they're very much glass cannons, but an M4 that can mount HEPT is no small force to be trifled with. A wing of scorpions will annihilate Corvettes in short order and even if they're firing flak, you can still overwhelm a Frigate if you have to. Admittedly, the rarer Raider is even more insanely fragile, and are literally one hit wonders. As in one hit and you'll wonder where they went.

I will say this however, that M4's are some of my favorite player ships to fly. Sure, they're relatively fragile, but as ships go, they're perfect for the player. They can deal more damage to the competition than M5's and they're more agile (mostly) than M3's.

Incidentally, the Solano is a bit of a weirdo. It's got high M3 class shielding, and yet it's classed as an M4. It's slower than the Buster Raider, but it's faster than most other M4's sans the Scorpions. And however much it might look like a very shiny turd, it's a very deadly ship, particularly when armed with MD's.
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Post by A5PECT » Fri, 27. Jan 12, 19:07

How do you look at 210 m/s and 75MJ of shielding and think "shiny turd?"

The kicker for me is that they're 400k credits for a bare hull.

That's selling diamonds at a dollar store.
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Post by mistervec » Fri, 27. Jan 12, 19:16

Well, it is lumpy and vaguely oblong. Also shiny.
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Post by A5PECT » Fri, 27. Jan 12, 19:18

mistervec wrote:Well, it is lumpy and vaguely oblong. Also shiny.
Hey, I like how it looks.

It's compact.
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Post by mistervec » Fri, 27. Jan 12, 19:41

KloHunt3r wrote: Hey, I like how it looks.

It's compact.
Oh, I agree. I quite like the design, too. But I also can understand where the comparison comes from.
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Post by Sir Warwick » Fri, 27. Jan 12, 19:58

M4s exsist to keep the enemy engaged with something to shoot at well away from you more expensive assets while heavier fighter makes their way over for the kills.

Ive been filling carriers with a mix of Solanos and Ventiis, both fully loaded with MDs. The ventiis especially seem to make short work of anything upto a covrvette and I havnt had many solano casualties so far.

Other option is sending in fighter drones instead of M4s to keep your expensive M3 and upwards intact - or just nuke the b*****ds from orbit with an M7M - only way to be sure ;)

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Post by Abraxis86 » Sat, 28. Jan 12, 08:15

gbjbaanb wrote:I think the M5 is a scout ship rather than a light fighter, the M4 is the light fighter class.
This has always been how I look at it too.

In my last game (Anonymous Argon), I got an Asp as soon as I could afford it. It was my player ship until sometime after I had bought a TL.

Armed with mass drivers, I could take on anything short of an M6. The speed and maneuverability lets you safely and quickly get in range for the mass drivers. Nothing M3+ down could take sustained fire from those things for more then a few seconds. M5s were a bit of a problem, more of an annoyance though, just wait for them to approach and a single click (with 4-6 MDs mounted) would kill their hull to the point where they're crawling.

The only thing I really had trouble with was taking on 2-3 M3s with a bunch of M5/M4s with them, there was a threshold of 'too much fire' to dodge at which point all hope was lost. That should happen with any ship so outnumbered by equal class ships though.

To be honest I found it a bit overpowered.

This was Vanilla btw

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Post by garv222 » Sat, 28. Jan 12, 09:04

I've got ....new respect for a m4 ever since my latest game start. When all I can afford is a buster with 4 PAC, I'm feeling pretty damn mighty when my last ship had one IRE. That being said...It's highly frustrating when my M4 weapon's generator can't even keep up with some target's shield regen.
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Post by Gazz » Sat, 28. Jan 12, 09:26

garv222 wrote:That being said...It's highly frustrating when my M4 weapon's generator can't even keep up with some target's shield regen.
There's not a lot of laser choice there. The IRE does 10% more damage per energy used but PAC is the most efficient at doing hull damage.
The obvious solution: get a bigger ship. =P
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Post by Kirlack » Sat, 28. Jan 12, 10:19

In a recent Savage Split game start I found the Mako i 'liberated' from it's previous and rather careless owner was a great ship. Sure, a total 10MJ shields meant I had to be very VERY careful, but in short order it netted me my first M3....a Barracuda :|

I actually opted to stick with the Mako for a while, until i needed to cross the Pirate sectors west of Hatikvah's, where the M3's shielding would better suit me against PBGs.

Basically, I like M4s. For a player ship, the Asp, Pike or Theseus get my vote for the high shielding and their promotion of survivability. The Solano also, but that's already been covered. Triaxx2 has previously demonstrated how lethal a carrier full of Pikes can be, and for a long time I was using Asps as my shield stripping squadron for boarding ops.

I've said it before, but if you know the game well enough EVERY ship has a use, somewhere :)

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Post by Silverblade The Enchanter » Sat, 28. Jan 12, 12:21

Despite my post on the annoyance of "time vs survivability/replacing fighters", I do have to say, Solanos with mass drivers are indeed, nasty ;)

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Post by Triaxx2 » Sat, 28. Jan 12, 15:56

One of the advantages to ye ole shiny turd (Solano) is that while it's not exactly easy to outfit due to the lack of a Equipment Dock, it's very cost effective, being almost an under priced M3.

I... love Split Ships. I really do. But I don't like the Asp. Side by side with the Pike, the Pike is 650 hull heavier, with a better shield generator, and nearly twice the weapon battery.

Hull doesn't seem like it makes that much difference, but I've had ships come back with just a couple of points of hull left and that's the difference between being able to repair it and having to buy a new ship.

And worse? Not only can the Pike carry L cargo, but it carries almost twice as much as the Asp. For that matter, it carries more than twice what the Solano can. And it's not a ship that uses Mass Drivers. Which is insane.
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