Seeking reassurance on the Terran Economy situation

[Oriestes]

Hey all,

So like many noobs posting here in search of help, I'm only a beginner, perhaps intermediate at best, player of X3.

I started with the Argon "Humble Trader" beginning and spent the first week or so of playtime (in real-world hours) getting to learn things and slowly progress. I'm at a point now where I have my own Carrier, a TL for station building, some basic complex building knowledge and so on.

As I imagine many others do, I started researching (on the interwebz, not in-game) what ships exist, and making plans. There are some really nice, and frankly, unique Terran ships out there I had my eyes on. The Springblossom, for example, looks utterly unique (a Corvette that can go 300m/s+, I want one!). I noticed that the Springblossom and other Terran ships I wanted to fly require Terran-specific weapons and (in some cases) ammunition.

So, realizing that Terran stuff was a good thing to aim for, and that all of the weapons, ammunition and ships lay out in Terran space, an area I hadn't uncovered in my first weeks' playtime, I decide to kick off that storyline.

Things go well to begin with. I found my way to the Terrans easily enough, and started off that whole plotline.

Yet something's not quite right, I notice, as I travel their sectors for the first time. Aside from these super-large stations in each system, nothing else really exists from system to system. Not knowing any differently, I assume this is how Terran space is, and go about my business.

After a few days I'm beginning to wonder about it all. I want to eventually pilot a few Terran ships, but none of the equipment or ammunition I'll need for them is available anywhere, ever.

That's when I google around and discover that, rather unbelievably to me, the Terran economy has basically been designed by Egosoft developers to fail? For those who don't know what this means, apparently there's something called the "GOD Engine" which deletes stations not in use.

So if you start as a Humble Trader (or any number of other scenarios, I imagine), then by the time you naturally discover Terran space, all of those equipment and ammunition-producing factories have been deleted.

As a former game developer/designer myself, I'm horribly confused by this. It's comparable to say, Blizzard (makes of the World of Warcraft MMORPG) releasing an expansion that, if not touched within day one of its release, slowly deletes itself from the game, making that shiny new content inaccessible and unplayable. I just can't quite grasp how this could ever a) come to be and b) not be considered a bug to be fixed.

I've read a little on the potential complexities involved in a developer fix, and as one myself in the day, I can appreciate that it's not, nor ever, just "one line of code" to fix.

I'm not even here to petition that they fix it.

Rather, I'm just curious of this mechanic's impact. I'd like to know exactly what things this limits me from entirely, meaning, I'd like to know if my "normal" start, and "normal" playing has resulted in various ships, equipment or ammunition becoming PERMANENTLY unavailable to me.

From the little research I've done, it seems that some parts of the Terran economy can be revived no matter how late you discover them.

Yet, in other forum threads, I read that certain things are simply GONE FOREVER if you do not take actions to save them. There is an "Aldrin" sector, for example, one I've not yet made it to. People in forums say that there are factories there (and perhaps other places) that once destroyed, remove a commodity from the game permanently, and I cannot buy those stations from a Terran shipyard and replace them.

Is this correct? What things are removed from the game permanently? Is there any way to cheat them back in via console commands or something similar?

It just seems UTTERLY INSANE to me that the content in an expansion pack could EVER be rendered PERMANENTLY inaccessible by the game engine! Please tell me this is not the case, or provide some workaround!

Thanks in advance,
One very stressed out Argon trader.

So what I'd like, if anyone could oblige, is information on exactly what content is rendered inaccessible in these situations.

[Catra]

the Terran economy has basically been designed by Egosoft developers to fail? For those who don't know what this means,

no, you dont quite understand what that means:

- the terran economy fails because the traders are set to be not that intelligent and slower than they can be(not a terran specific issue).

- the terran economy fails because there isnt a food fab that constantly makes food for their factories(terran specific issue).

- the terran economy fails because their factories buying prices can fall into a zone where traders dont want to trade resources with them(probably a terran specific issue).

also, the GoD engine just doesnt delete stations, it also replaces them.

So what I'd like, if anyone could oblige, is information on exactly what content is rendered inaccessible in these situations.

the only thing i can think of are the aldrin factories, but then i havent seen one disappear yet so /shrug, they mightve done so script magic to disallow their destruction.

fter a few days I'm beginning to wonder about it all. I want to eventually pilot a few Terran ships, but none of the equipment or ammunition I'll need for them is available anywhere, ever.

thats actually like that everywhere. the economy and logistics is setup in such a way that if the player does not interfere, production is extremely slow and products are quite hard to comeby.

[Oriestes]

Firstly, thanks very much Catra for the reply. It's eased my mind a little.

Ultimately, all I need assurance on is the fact that no new content is rendered permanently inaccessible by the God Engine. I'm less concerned with what triggers the removal of stations, but I still appreciate you taking the time to explain why they are deleted.

You seem to be saying that some Aldrin factories might disappear. It's still a little worrying to hear that. What sort of factories, if you don't mind elaborating? Do these produce ships, equipment, or ammunition?

My main concern is that I'll invest a lot of time into my game, eventually make it out to that Aldrin sector (or wherever else), and discover that some ships are permanently inaccessible (because I can't purchase them, or simply can't fit them).

Also, while it's good that this God Engine replaces stations, from my research, all of that seems to be utterly random, potentially leaving the player with inaccessible content until some random point at which the system decides to again make it accessible. Is that really the case here?

This all seems so backwards?! An expansion pack that deletes (parts of) itself over time? I can't comprehend it...

[Oriestes]

thats actually like that everywhere. the economy and logistics is setup in such a way that if the player does not interfere, production is extremely slow and products are quite hard to comeby.

Oh, to reply to this.

While I broadly agree, the situations aren't quite comparable. Recently I wanted to buy a whole bunch of capital-class weapons like Flak Arrays, and even though some stations were out of stock, others had a few available. The point is, that even though it was hard, it was possible. With enough work finding stocked stations, I eventually fitted my ship.

I find that to be different to a potential scenario where all of the stations supplying equipment are simply NON-EXISTENT and you cannot replace them or otherwise get access to their produce.

I mean, I get your point about untouched Commonwealth stations being poor at producing, and even deleted, but I've never come across the situation where every single factory that produces a specific product is nuked out of existence, and is at the same time irreplaceable via conventional means (f.ex buying a new station and placing it yourself) hence my concern here.

I still feel a bit cautious about continuing on with my game, to be honest.

I don't want to invest any more hours only to find weeks later that certain content was permanently removed...

[jkjklkl]

Nothing is ever permanently inaccessible. As long as you can obtain just one copy of a weapon, you can clone more of them (you still have to pay for each one though). Board Terran cap-ships if you need the big weapons (which are more prone to disappearing since there are few fabs in the first place). For the Aldrin weapons are harder to come by. If you can't buy them, the easiest way to get them is to board a Springblossom, which isn't an easy task considering their speed. You should be fine, however. I first discovered Aldrin after a month of playing, and I only lost 3 SPPs

[Oriestes]

Heh, so "nothing is ever permanently inaccessible"...but that comes with the caveat: "so long as you obtain just one copy of a weapon."

I don't mean to sound antagonistic or contrary, but like, that seems a bit absurd to me. How am I supposed to know as a new player what weapons could potentially become inaccessible, and hence, I should save?

Does anyone see the Catch-22 problem here? I mean, unless I have a specific (and exhaustive) list of equipment that needs "saving" - and prior knowledge of its imminent disappearance - I have no idea on what I'm missing out on here. The only way you ever see this stuff in-game is if you save it first and otherwise, you'll never notice the absence of things you didn't know about in the first place!

Anyways, I promised I wouldn't petition for a change, just seek workaround....

So, I guess now you're saying I need a specific list of equipment to have a single copy of, so that I can presumably reverse-engineer it later (in my player HQ)?

If that's the case, then can someone confirm that, if the factory producing a certain type of equipment gets deleted, then I'm left with the sole option of boarding a Terran vessel to acquire the equipment? It just seems so backwards and drastic.

Not to mention it's somewhat problematic in a game where I've no experience with boarding, and more importantly, never intended on being hostile to Terrans! Here I was thinking that working with them would get me access to their ships and tech, but it turns out they're too economically backward to maintain their factories, so now I am FORCED to plunder their ships for otherwise-inaccessible wares?!

Okay, fine, so what do I need to save from the God Engine....and how do I know it's not already too late for this save game?

(Sorry if I'm not getting something here...I'm a frustrated X3 noob. )

[jkjklkl]

Does anyone see the Catch-22 problem here?

You read it wrong. Nothing is permanently inaccessible. No matter what, you will always have some means of obtaining it. Then, as long as you have one copy of it, you can make more.

[Oriestes]

Ok, fair enough.

It's not quite the reassurance I was after, since it implies going to some extreme (and meta-gamey) lengths to rectify....

But it's good to know, all the same, that nothing becomes permanently inaccessible.

Thanks for the answers guys, much appreciated.

[jkjklkl]

Forgot to reply to the rest of your post

So, I guess now you're saying I need a specific list of equipment to have a single copy of, so that I can presumably reverse-engineer it later (in my player HQ)?

You don't need the PHQ. In fact, you can't make weapons at the PHQ. Cloning refers to selling a weapon to an Equipment Dock, then buying multiple ships from a connected Shipyard. After buying the ships, you will be presented an option to equip each of them. By buying the one weapon you sold to the EqD, you will get X amount of them, where X is the number of ships bought.

For example, let's say you own the only HEPT in the universe. Find an EqD that lists HEPTs in its wares list and sell it. Then, buy 10 ships that can hold the HEPT in its cargobay. When the game prompts you to equip them all at once, choose the one HEPT in stock and buy it. You now own 10.

If that's the case, then can someone confirm that, if the factory producing a certain type of equipment gets deleted, then I'm left with the sole option of boarding a Terran vessel to acquire the equipment? It just seems so backwards and drastic.

You can stimulate the Terran economy by setting up a bunch of MkIII traders in their space. After a while the fabs you want will start popping up again.

Not to mention it's somewhat problematic in a game where I've no experience with boarding, and more importantly, never intended on being hostile to Terrans! Here I was thinking that working with them would get me access to their ships and tech, but it turns out they're too economically backward to maintain their factories, so now I am FORCED to plunder their ships for otherwise-inaccessible wares?!

Boarding doesn't affect your rep as much as you would think, especially at higher ranks. You can always regain any rep lost by taxiing people around between boardings.

Okay, fine, so what do I need to save from the God Engine....and how do I know it's not already too late for this save game?

The best thing to do is park a cheap M5 (Rapiers work best for their close proximity) at every station you want to keep. Depending on how rich you are, this could be just one of each type of station, or every station you find.

It's not quite the reassurance I was after, since it implies going to some extreme (and meta-gamey) lengths to rectify....

Not really. Boarding is really all it is. If you don't want to board them, you can always just destroy the ships, though a drop is not as likely and you lose more rep. Xenon Js and Ks also drop some Terran weapons, though they are the hardest ships in the game to board

[p00fer]

does this cloning aaply to missiles as well? say i want to get x amount of hammer heavs....

or lasertowers...

[AL'42]

does this cloning aaply to missiles as well? say i want to get x amount of hammer heavs..

If the EQdock stocks the missiles and has a shipyard in sector then cloning is possible.

OP: I’ve always thought it was entirely up to the player to get the Terran economy booming. Protein paste, Carbo cake, MRE (4x L fabs each) will sell out to NPCs, Water (4xL, need traders to sell) will get everything moving big time. Place M5s on NPC fabs you don’t want disappearing. Sorted.

[MAD_COMMANDER]

Hey all

im not quoting the whole thing basic part is i want to fly aldrin ships


Word of advice. The springblossom is a great explorer and fantastic Quick freighter for complexies but as a fighter if falls slightly short.
The Foward mounted guns are to far apart to hit smaller ships if you like to fight manually the range on the turrets is 2km.
While it rips apart small ships within Experimental Starburst range its cap for said guns is low when fully kitted out with them. EEMPC are weaker than EMPC in range and power. sadly terran's dont have anything as fast as springblossom. maybe because adlrin peeps have fly round a freaking huge asteriod everyday.
but it really shines when you'r starting of and exploring space like xenon sectors its fast enough to stay out of P/PX/Q/K/LX/L range and loves fighting N's & will outrun tempest, windstalker missiles.[/i][/b]

[SirDarius]

There is hope for the terran economy !

After almost 20 game-time days of complete unavailability, a Ghoul Missile Factory appeared in the furthest unknown sector.
I've been careful to dock an M5 there so GoD will not remove it again, and it also allows me to monitor the stock of missiles available for purchase.

I have put a dozen of sector traders in terran space, and it seems that it has made the whole solar system very active, full of traders and civilian ships.