Sorry but X2 The Threat Dogfights SUCKS!!!!

General discussions about the games by Egosoft including X-BTF, XT, X², X³: Reunion, X³: Terran Conflict and X³: Albion Prelude.

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RadioactiveYeti
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Post by RadioactiveYeti » Sat, 6. Mar 04, 23:22

Ziggysband wrote:...while the others rape you from behind...
hehehe :lol:

I do actually agree with you on all of that though

:Nova
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Post by :Nova » Sat, 6. Mar 04, 23:24

Well, having the M6 Centaur with 2x150MW shields, I just let everything ram into me, the M3's, M5's, the lot :)

Like Ziggy does :lol:

The_Abyss
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Post by The_Abyss » Sat, 6. Mar 04, 23:24

Whatever you may feel about the features of the game, please be civil to each other? :wink:

Thanks.

Hopefully 1.3 is not too far away now....
Strung out on Britain's high, hitting an all time low

RustiSwordz
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Post by RustiSwordz » Sat, 6. Mar 04, 23:28

X-Type wrote:Unlucky Sotos, come tomorrow, alot of fanboys will be all over your ass, X2 is the holy grail to them, mocking X2 is like telling a Christian that God and Jesus wern't real.
RIP :lol:
Well would you walk into a church with a placard declaring Jesus to be false.

No.

point made.
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jjanthony
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Post by jjanthony » Sat, 6. Mar 04, 23:35

I simply just don't see how there would be any changes in v1.3 Combat has been like this since the day of X-BTF. They were unwilling to improve the combat AI when X2 was first written, I doubt they would make any changes.

Yes I agree, ramming is extremely annoying and ridiculous, and the fact that you have to adopt special tactics like using the strafe drive to counter that flaw in the AI does not make it not a flaw.

Sotos
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Post by Sotos » Sat, 6. Mar 04, 23:37

To Rustiswordz:

*Sigh*

I said Dogfights in X2 Threat sucks
and not X2 Sucks
how many times i have to explain...


Stop comparing faith in religion with game Fanatism
they are not exactly the same thing you know...

Admiral Thrawn
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Post by Admiral Thrawn » Sat, 6. Mar 04, 23:46

Have to agree.
While i love this Game,the Combat AI is extremely annoying and weak imho.
What i dont get is,ive seen good Combat AI and Dogfights in old old Games like Freespace,Xwing vs Tie Fighter,etc and a modern day Game cant at least do the same?
Many may argue that X2 is more of a trading Game,true,and i dont want it to be some Shooter,but dont forget that X2 on the other Hand keeps forcing you into Fights by the Story,unavoidable Pirate and Khaak attacks,etc.
So yes,iam pretty dissapointed with that one Aspect of the Game and i dont think there is really an excuse for it.

RustiSwordz
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Post by RustiSwordz » Sat, 6. Mar 04, 23:52

In dogfights you only fly at full speed to catch someone. When battle is joined drop to between 1/3 and 1/2 speed. this gives you excellent opportunity to dodge the rams. Give him a face full as he comes at you and if that don't kill him or make him bail it usually will make him break off. Also try to keep enemy ships about 200-500 meters away anycloser and you will get a face full.

There is NOTHING wrong with the combat, all you have to do is change fighting styles.

this isnt Freesucks 2 you know.
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jjanthony
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Post by jjanthony » Sun, 7. Mar 04, 00:04

RustiSwordz wrote:There is NOTHING wrong with the combat, all you have to do is change fighting styles.
You are welcome to your opinion of course as it must be respected. But your reasoning seems flawed. It is like saying there is nothing wrong with a road with potholes in it, all you have to do is drive around it.

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Phoenix_UK
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Post by Phoenix_UK » Sun, 7. Mar 04, 00:06

The Argon supreme court today began investigations into charges laid by a freelance bounty hunter against the Argon Military. The charges, based upon loss of earnings in Argon space, refer to recent events where barely trained, cadet grade pilots seem to have taken over the ranks of fighter defence forces.

In a statement to the Argon courts, the unnamed bounty hunter claims to have lost tens of thousands in bounties due to overzealous, undertrained, panicky pilots pulling into his line of fire, and in some cases turning inside his vector, resulting in high velocity impacts. Even though hostile pilot and Khaak vessels were subsequently destroyed, the impacts are considered enough grounds to withdraw bounty licences from pilots in Argon space. With the price of a new licence every time the inexperienced pilots perform such stunts, the bounty hunter in question is looking at a settlement of over 400,000 credits.

combat recordings from various private vessels seem to back the hunters claims, with the current recorded number of accidental collisions with Argon military craft exceeding previous records by nearly 200%.

One unnamed private pilot reports losing 10 consecutive licences whilst attempting to gather bounties in the infamous Ore Belt sector, as overzealous Argon fleet pilots in faster, more manouverable M5 class ships repeatedly flew inside his turning arc, and rammed his vessel.

The Argon military have refused to comment on the situation, although mounting evidence from private flight recorders seems to indicate a worrying growth in the number of inexperienced, poorly trained pilots.


Seriously, the flight AI of hostile ships is rather... sad. Ramming may be a valid combat tactic, but you really get the feeling that they're doing it more because they're thick, as opposed to having planned it. Hostile ships in X-wing performed more complex combat manouvers, and i can't even remember how old that game is... come to think of it, i've never played a game with such serious amounts of ramming. Except Homeworld Cataclysm, but it was called a Ramming Frigate so i guess we can let it off on that score.
Last edited by Phoenix_UK on Sun, 7. Mar 04, 00:12, edited 1 time in total.

CBJ
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EGOSOFT
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Post by CBJ » Sun, 7. Mar 04, 00:09

Very good! That should go on the BBS system. :D

RustiSwordz
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Post by RustiSwordz » Sun, 7. Mar 04, 00:16

jjanthony wrote:
RustiSwordz wrote:There is NOTHING wrong with the combat, all you have to do is change fighting styles.
You are welcome to your opinion of course as it must be respected. But your reasoning seems flawed. It is like saying there is nothing wrong with a road with potholes in it, all you have to do is drive around it.
This is true but the same could be said of Freespace Freelancer and Tie Fighter games which i like but i dont think they are perfect. The wheel would turn if i went over to any forum that may exist for said games saying that they would be flawed. Id be burned off in a hurry. Same difference here.

The fighting style between each game is utterly different and it would be boring as hell if they all played the same. The only reason you guys have got a beef and that it plays differently to anything you have played before and you are unwilling to change.

Thats the only reason you dont like it.
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Sotos
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Post by Sotos » Sun, 7. Mar 04, 00:23

Well if you have not played to much games like Freespace, Wing Commander, Xwing etc etc

I am sure you gonna say X2 Threat is perfect in Dogfighting you just change style to avoid Ramming (whichl these method does not always work by the way...)


But
If you have played many Combat Space Simulators you will notice that you do not need <changing styles> and avoid having your speed to maximum because enemy ships becomes Kamikazes as it happens with X2 the threat...

In games like Xwing,Freespace etc the combat has no restrictions to <Styles> for having a grea dogfight

The player adjust the speed and make it's tactics as he thinks better without having the danger of becoming rammed by enemy ship (unless the enemy ship has lower speed than the players ship and the player can not avoid it)

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Phoenix_UK
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Post by Phoenix_UK » Sun, 7. Mar 04, 00:25

No, the reason we don't like the combat system is not because the combats play "Differently", its because the combats are... stupid.

If i recieve incoming fire i throw my ship into a sharp turn and boost the ass off my throttle...
i don't do a 180 turn INTO the incoming fire!
I've lost count of the number of M3 khaak vessels i've blotted because they just waddle happily into my fire, instead of performing any form of evasive manouver.
The X-wing series had issues with the combat AI, true enough, but you still felt as if you were engaged with a thinking opponent... sodding Tie-Advance...
The combat AI in X2 is good enough to make you feel as if your fighting ships stuck on autopilot, but not much else... Personally i'd be happy for enemy ships to turn the tables on me and actually put the fear of god into me in melee, but at the moment it just doesn't happen.
The game kicks ass, but saying a problem isn't a problem won't help anyone. X2 has many many things that it does very well, but combat is not one of them. Its not bad, its just not all that exciting.

jjanthony
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Post by jjanthony » Sun, 7. Mar 04, 00:28

RustiSwordz wrote: The fighting style between each game is utterly different and it would be boring as hell if they all played the same. The only reason you guys have got a beef and that it plays differently to anything you have played before and you are unwilling to change.

Thats the only reason you dont like it.
Where are you getting the information for your assumptions from? You know why you like/dislike the game. You can only guess at the motives for others. To make a general statement like this shows a lot of bias and disrespect for others. Oddly enough, I have never played either one of those games.

Try this SIMPLIER logic instead of searching for one that is unfair or biased : Some of us don't like it because combat with ramming AI isn't FUN for us. No need to go looking for other non-existent or prejuidicial reasons.

The basic premise for a public forum is mutual respect and tolerance. Please don't put words into our mouths.
Last edited by jjanthony on Sun, 7. Mar 04, 00:30, edited 1 time in total.

RustiSwordz
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Post by RustiSwordz » Sun, 7. Mar 04, 00:30

if a car was coming straight at you you have two choices, stand still and get hit, or get out of the way.
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Sotos
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Post by Sotos » Sun, 7. Mar 04, 00:30

RustiSwordz wrote:
jjanthony wrote:
RustiSwordz wrote:There is NOTHING wrong with the combat, all you have to do is change fighting styles.
You are welcome to your opinion of course as it must be respected. But your reasoning seems flawed. It is like saying there is nothing wrong with a road with potholes in it, all you have to do is drive around it.
This is true but the same could be said of Freespace Freelancer and Tie Fighter games which i like but i dont think they are perfect. The wheel would turn if i went over to any forum that may exist for said games saying that they would be flawed. Id be burned off in a hurry. Same difference here.

The fighting style between each game is utterly different and it would be boring as hell if they all played the same. The only reason you guys have got a beef and that it plays differently to anything you have played before and you are unwilling to change.

Thats the only reason you dont like it.
The problem is not in changing our styles...

the problem is with Enemy AI becoming Kamikaze and player using restrictions (styles as you say them) for avoiding AI ramming the players ship is NOT A REALISTIC DOGFIGHT

Admiral Thrawn
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Post by Admiral Thrawn » Sun, 7. Mar 04, 00:31

Maybe we are just some of the rare and dying out Species that dont put up with *every* crap throwed at us instead of finding any possible excuse in reach for it and adapting to it.
Besides,i think everyone said something like they still like X2,so that should show enough that we are not totally unwilling to adapt and play the Game anyway.
I use the Strafe Drive and all,and hardly ever get rammed now.
But thats not all that is wrong.
Did you read what some others said?
It works that way that the hostile Ships act to you,as if you would stand still and not flying.
Whats that?
Do we play some fixed Turret shoot em up Game or a Space Game where things are actually flying?
The AI is weak and flawed,Ancient Games had much better ones,accept it.

PS:Sorry if i sound a bit hostile,but iam really getting tired of the same illogical old Fanboyish attitute in every Game Forum on the Net you meet when you critzise in a civil way and even state that you still love the Game.
Last edited by Admiral Thrawn on Sun, 7. Mar 04, 00:32, edited 1 time in total.

jjanthony
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Post by jjanthony » Sun, 7. Mar 04, 00:32

RustiSwordz wrote:if a car was coming straight at you you have two choices, stand still and get hit, or get out of the way.
Excellent analogy. Now I ask you : is it WRONG for the car to come straight at you? Is a judge going to say there is nothing WRONG with a car that rammed you because you could have 'just avoided it'?

Sotos
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Post by Sotos » Sun, 7. Mar 04, 00:40

RustiSwordz wrote:if a car was coming straight at you you have two choices, stand still and get hit, or get out of the way.
Yes but you forgot that the car can use the breaks or it can change direction with a quick-turn of the wheel to avoid hitting you


Anyway again
2 spaceships colliding is different
from
a car hitting a man

because in the 1st situation both will be probably dead or damaged( i am sure both do not want that)
while in the second only the man which is on the middle of the street will die and not the car

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