X3AP 2.0 Combat IS and OOS

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TestUnknown
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X3AP 2.0 Combat IS and OOS

Post by TestUnknown » Fri, 6. Apr 12, 02:17

I am new to the combat portion of X3AP 2.0, so I haven't actually try to fly these ships myself. But I am a successful merchant and wanting to build a fleet. So I am testing different ships using scripts. However, the test results don't make much sense to me. Here is what I have tested so far, could someone please explain how this is possible? Thank you.

OOS One-on-one combat (with calls to '!fight.attack.object' against each other) in Unknown Sector (16,0) while I am in Unknown Sector (9,7) unless otherwise indicated. If ship has missiles other than mosquito missile (MM), then the missile firing probability is set to 80% otherwise default to 5%. All ships have max cargo, max steering, max engine, fight command mk1 and mk2, duplex or triplex scanner depending on ship. And if important to this discussion, I am 29 Pan-Galactic Tycoon and 19 Militant. Although in actuality, I just sneak up on ships and shoot them until the pilot gets out and I board ships. Other than that, my combat experience consist of ramming smaller ships with Hyperion Vanguard or SCS Shirman Prototype. In other word, I don't fight much. But still I think ship class and weapon load out matter in determine which ship will win, but my test results do not seem to indicate this. They seem to show that steering and speed are the more important.


* Trial 1: One on One, Argon Solano(6xPAC, 3x25MJ, 25xMM) (20 Wins) versus Argon Nova Prototype(8xHEPT, 1xPAC, 4x25MJ, 25xMM) (0 Wins)
* Trial 2: One on One, Argon Solano(6xPAC, 3x25MJ, 25xMM) (20 Wins) versus Argon Nova Prototype(8xHEPT, 1xPRG, 4x25MJ, 25xMM) (0 Wins)
* Trial 3: One on One, Argon Solano(6xPAC, 3x25MJ, 25xMM) (6 Wins) versus Pirate Nova Raider 180(8xPBG, 1xPAC, 3x25MJ, 25xMM) (0 Wins)
* Trial 4: One on One, Argon Solano(6xPAC, 3x25MJ, 25xMM) (6 Wins) versus Argon Nova Raider 13(8xPBG, 1xPAC, 3x25MJ, 25xMM) (0 Wins)
* Trial 5: One on One, Argon Solano(6xPAC, 3x25MJ, 25xMM) (0 Wins) versus Terran Spitfyre(8xpMAML, 2xEMPC, 3x25MJ, 25xMM) (6 Wins)
* Trial 6: One on One, Argon Solano(6xPAC, 3x25MJ, 25xMM) (14 Wins) versus Pirate Kestrel (2xPAC, 1xFBL, 1x5MJ, 5xMM) (4 Wins)
* Trial 7: One on One, Argon Solano(6xPAC, 3x25MJ, 25xMM) (0 Wins) versus Xenon N (4xPAC, 2x1MJ, 5xMM) (6 Wins)
* Trial 8 (OOS): One on One, Argon Solano(6xPAC, 3x25MJ, 25xHurricane, 25xMM) (0 Wins) versus Xenon N (4xPAC, 2x1MJ, 5xMM) (12 Wins)
* Trial 8 (IS): One on One, Argon Solano(6xPAC, 3x25MJ, 25xHurricane, 25xMM) (12 Wins) versus Xenon N (4xPAC, 2x1MJ, 5xMM) (0 Wins)

For most part OOS and IS combat result agrees with which other. The exception is Trial 8 where Argon Solano uses Hurricane missiles. IS, I confirmed Solano does fire missiles. OOS, I don't know if it actually fire any missile or not. Anyway, IS Argon Solano wins but OOS it loses to Xenon N. Fight is for up to 1 minute or until a ship is destroyed. In all test cases, 1 ship always got destroyed within a minute.
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Catra
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Post by Catra » Fri, 6. Apr 12, 04:31

welcome to the stuff that everyone else has little to no idea how it works, enjoy your stay.
Just saying it forward: I give everyone 2 posts to make good, in context posts(proper english, as always, is optional). After that I'm ignoring what you have to say in that thread that's directed to what we previously were talking about.
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Morkonan
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Post by Morkonan » Fri, 6. Apr 12, 05:03

AFAIK, AP got a revamped OS combat mechanic when compared to OS in previous versions. In particular, missile and ant-missile stuff was worked on a bit, since missiles have actual hitpoints/armor values and the like, now. Could be wrong, though - I don't keep up with AP mechanics since I don't have it.

But, in both X3TC and AP, speed would be the primary factor in determining who gets to fire first in a combat round.

The formula to determine how X3 handles OS combat goes something like this...

The ship with the highest max velocity fires first --> A Miracle Occurs ---> X3 Combat Algorithm is Resolved

There ya go.
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Jumee
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Post by Jumee » Fri, 6. Apr 12, 06:44

OOS still has no missile defense at all (its pretty much impossible with current system), the changes in AP are that: a) ships can now engage multiple targets at the same time b) lighter ships have a chance to dodge heavy weapons c) there are now re-worked OOS damage values (which are afaik separate from IS) there might be more but I either dont remember them or simply do not know (the latter is more likely :D)
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pjknibbs
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Post by pjknibbs » Fri, 6. Apr 12, 08:28

My guess is bad luck with the RNG--the Solano probably kept firing its Hurricanes at the N (80% is a pretty high probability, after all), which somehow managed to dodge them all while chewing away at the Solano in return. I'm no expert on OOS mechanics, though!
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Geek
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Post by Geek » Fri, 6. Apr 12, 14:18

OOS combat was pretty much entirely rewritten for AP. I do not know much about the new sytem, except that it is heavily (ridiculously IMO) skewed towards speed and maneuvrability - thus M5 will kill most others ships with ease.
Right on commander !
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Jumee
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Post by Jumee » Fri, 6. Apr 12, 14:24

Geek wrote: skewed towards speed and maneuvrability - thus M5 will kill most others ships with ease.
you are joking :P (hopefully) I have had tons of OOS battles and I can tell you that that is not the case

strength of fighters relative to higher classes has actually significantly fallen since the "cloud" thing does not work anymore
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Geek
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Post by Geek » Fri, 6. Apr 12, 14:32

Against ships with multiple FLAK turrets, fighters fall like flies sure.
Against intermediate ships though, fighters swarms are pure death.
Right on commander !
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TestUnknown
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Post by TestUnknown » Sat, 7. Apr 12, 04:19

Thanks for all your replies. For fighters (M5, M4, M3), speed seems to be everything within class (see trials 14 to 32, 56, 57). Within each class, the fighter with the highest speed have tremendous advantage over others. Between classes, speed still matters, but strength begin to play some part. In trials 33 to 35, Pirate Kestrel (M5) easily beats all fighter drones because it is faster and stronger. It can also handle most of M4s but heavily shielded Solano is a challenge (36, 37, 58 ). M3 is too much a problem (38-41). M4, on the other hand, even though it cannot beat M5, can compete with M3 (42-55). Terran Spitfyre (fastest M3), even though it gets beat up by ATP Fenrir (M3) (26), have no problem handling the M4's because it is just as fast. What I said so far only applies to the ships I tested, listed below, and their weapon load outs.

Code: Select all

The numbers next to the name are speed and steering

* Drone
* Fighter Drone, 400, 120
* Keris, 180, 24
* Fighter Drone MKII, 200, 26

  * M5
  * Pirate Kestrel (M5), 635.3, 50.3
  * Terran #deca.fade (M5), 480.8, 80.4
  * Xenon N (M5), 360.6, 80.4

  * M4
  * Split Scorpion Prototype (M4), 345, 60
  * Terran #deca.deaf (M4), 256, 72.6
  * Xenon M (M4), 180, 72.6
  * Argon Solano (M4), 210, 53.2
  * Pirate Elite (M4+), 168, 71.1
  * Split Asp (M4+), 225, 53.7
  * Argon Eurus (M4+), 224, 53.2

  * M3
  * Terran Spitfyre (M3), 452, 78.8
  * Xenon L (M3), 164.9, 68.3
  * Terran #deca.cefa (M3), 214.8, 68.3
  * Argon Nova Prototype (M3), 187.5, 62.8
  * Pirate Nova Raider (M3), 145.3, 63
  * Argon Nova Raider (M3), 190.5, 63
  * ATF Fenrir (M3+), 190, 42.3
  * Xenon LX (M3+), 143.1, 55.2
  * Pirate Eclipse (M3+), 140, 53.3
  * Teladi Falcon Sentinel, 108, 29.3
The results are rather surprising to me. I was originally thinking of not making or buying any M4s and M5s for combat and use them purely for scouting. But it looks like they might have some use because they are so much cheaper than M3 - a ATF Fenrir (M3+) is 5.4M, the ship alone, compared to most M5s with a price tag of around 100K. Unfortunately, I don't have a script to test combat between groups of fighters, so I can't test fighting Fenrir with multiple M5s. Fenrir is also nearly as expensive as some M6, so it seems that one might as well buy or make M6 instead. Maybe I'll test the M6 next. Then there are also the M7M and other ships with weapons design for fighter control as Geek and pjknibbs said. It might turn out that the cheapest solution is cap ship with drones; I might test this next.

By the way, I did test sending Argon Solano (M4) against Boreas (M2) in trial 9 and Boreas against Osaka in 10. The results are as expected.

Code: Select all


* Trial 9: One on One, Argon Solano(6xPAC, 3x25MJ, 25xMM) (0 Wins) versus Boreas (32xPPC, 8xFAA, 4x2GJ, 500xMM) (6 Wins)
* Trial 10: One on One, 5min round, Osaka (24xPSP, 24xSSC, 6x2GJ, 500xMM) (4 Wins) versus Boreas (32xPPC, 8xFAA, 4x2GJ, 500xMM) (1 Wins), (1 Ties)

* Based on 11-13: All 3 drones are worth producing
* Trial 11: One on One, Fighter Drone (20 Wins) versus Fighter Drone MKII (0 Wins)
* Trial 12: One on One, Fighter Drone (0 Wins) versus Keris (19 Wins), (21 Ties)
* Trial 13: One on One, Fighter Drone MKII (14 Wins) versus Keris (6 Wins)

* Based on 14-17: best M5 is Pirate Kestral
* Trial 14: One on One, Pirate Kestrel (2xPAC, 1xFBL, 1x5MJ, 5xMM) (6 Wins) versus Xenon N (4xPAC, 2x1MJ, 5xMM) (0 Wins)
* Trial 15: One on One, Pirate Kestrel (2xPAC, 1xFBL, 1x5MJ, 5xMM) (6 Wins) versus Terran #deca.fade(6xpMAML, 2x1MJ, 5xMM) (0 Wins)
* Trial 16: One on One, Pirate Kestrel (2xPAC, 1xFBL, 1x5MJ, 5xMM) (6 Wins) versus Terran #deca.fade(6xeEMPC, 2x1MJ, 5xMM) (0 Wins)
* Trial 17: One on One, Pirate Kestrel (2xPAC, 1xFBL, 1x5MJ, 5xMM) (5 Wins) versus Terran #deca.fade(6xpSSC, 2x1MJ, 5xMM) (0 Wins), (1 Tie)

* Based on 18-21: best M4 is Split Scorpion Prototype
* Trial 18: One on One, Split Scorpion Prototype(6xPAC, 1x5MJ, 25xMM) (6 Wins) versus Split Scorpion Prototype(6xHEPT, 1x5MJ, 25xMM) (0 Wins)
* Trial 19: One on One, Split Scorpion Prototype(6xPAC, 1x5MJ, 25xMM) (6 Wins) versus Argon Solano(6xPAC, 3x25MJ, 25xMM, 25xHurricane) (0 Wins)
* Trial 20: One on One, Split Scorpion Prototype(6xPAC, 1x5MJ, 25xMM) (6 Wins) versus Argon Solano(6xPAC, 3x25MJ, 25xMM) (0 Wins)
* Trial 21: One on One, Split Scorpion Prototype(6xPAC, 1x5MJ, 25xMM) (6 Wins) versus Terran #deca.deaf(6xpMAML, 1xEMPC, 4x5MJ, 25xMM) (0 Wins)

* Based on 22-32: best M3 is ATF Fenrir (but Argon Nova Prototype and Terran Spitfyre are good also)
* Trial 22: One on One, Terran Spitfyre(8xpMAML, 2xEMPC, 3x25MJ, 25xMM) (3 Wins) versus Argon Nova Prototype(8xHEPT, 1xPAC, 4x25MJ, 25xMM) (1 Wins), (2 Ties)
* Trial 23: One on One, Terran Spitfyre(8xpMAML, 2xEMPC, 3x25MJ, 25xMM) (3 Wins) versus Argon Nova Prototype(8xHEPT, 1xPRG, 4x25MJ, 25xMM) (3 Wins)
* Trial 24: One on One, Terran Spitfyre(8xpMAML, 2xEMPC, 3x25MJ, 25xMM) (6 Wins) versus Pirate Nova Raider(8xPBG, 1xPAC, 3x25MJ, 25xMM) (0 Wins)
* Trial 25: One on One, Terran Spitfyre(8xpMAML, 2xEMPC, 3x25MJ, 25xMM) (6 Wins) versus Argon Nova Raider(8xPBG, 1xPAC, 3x25MJ, 25xMM) (0 Wins)
* Trial 26: One on One, Terran Spitfyre(8xpMAML, 2xEMPC, 3x25MJ, 25xMM) (0 Wins) versus ATF Fenrir(10xEMPC, 6x25MJ, 25xMM) (3 Wins), (3 Ties)
* Trial 27: One on One, ATF Fenrir(10xEMPC, 6x25MJ, 25xMM) (3 Wins) versus Argon Nova Prototype(8xHEPT, 1xPRG, 4x25MJ, 25xMM) (3 Wins)
* Trial 28: One on One, ATF Fenrir(10xEMPC, 6x25MJ, 25xMM) (3 Wins) versus Argon Nova Prototype(9xPRG, 4x25MJ, 25xMM) (3 Wins)
* Trial 29: One on One, ATF Fenrir(10xEMPC, 6x25MJ, 25xMM) (6 Wins) versus Xenon L(6xFBL, 3x25MJ, 25xMM) (0 Wins)
* Trial 30: One on One, ATF Fenrir(10xEMPC, 6x25MJ, 25xMM) (6 Wins) versus Terran #deca.cefa(8xpMAML, 2xEMPC, 2x25MJ, 25xMM) (0 Wins)
* Trial 31: One on One, ATF Fenrir(10xEMPC, 6x25MJ, 25xMM) (6 Wins) versus Xenon LX(8xHEPT, 2xPBE, 4x25MJ, 25xMM) (0 Wins)
* Trial 32: One on One, ATF Fenrir(10xEMPC, 6x25MJ, 25xMM) (6 Wins) versus Pirate Eclipse(8xPBG, 2xPRG, 3x25MJ, 25xMM) (0 Wins)
* Trial 56: One on One, ATF Fenrir(10xEMPC, 6x25MJ, 25xMM) (5 Wins) versus Falcon Sentinel(8xFBL, 1xPRG, 2x200MJ, 25xMM) (0 Wins) (1 Tie)
* Trial 57: One on One, ATF Fenrir(10xEMPC, 6x25MJ, 25xMM) (5 Wins) versus Falcon Sentinel(8xPBG, 1xPRG, 2x200MJ, 25xMM) (1 Wins)

* Based on 33-35: M5 is better than Drones
* Trial 33: One on One, Pirate Kestrel (2xPAC, 1xFBL, 1x5MJ, 5xMM) (6 Wins) versus Fighter Drone (0 Wins)
* Trial 34: One on One, Pirate Kestrel (2xPAC, 1xFBL, 1x5MJ, 5xMM) (6 Wins) versus Fighter Drone MKII (0 Wins)
* Trial 35: One on One, Pirate Kestrel (2xPAC, 1xFBL, 1x5MJ, 5xMM) (6 Wins) versus Keris (0 Wins)

* Based on 36-37: M5 is better than M4, but begin to have some problem with heavily shielded ships such as Solano
* Trial 36: One on One, Pirate Kestrel (2xPAC, 1xFBL, 1x5MJ, 5xMM) (6 Wins) versus Split Scorpion Prototype(6xPAC, 1x5MJ, 25xMM) (0 Wins)
* Trial 37: One on One, Pirate Kestrel (2xPAC, 1xFBL, 1x5MJ, 5xMM) (6 Wins) versus Split Scorpion Prototype(6xHEPT, 1x5MJ, 25xMM) (0 Wins)
* Trial 58: One on One, Pirate Kestrel (2xPAC, 1xFBL, 1x5MJ, 5xMM) (2 Wins) versus Argon Solano(6xPAC, 3x25MJ, 25xMM) (4 Wins)

* Based on 38-41: M5 is too weak to take out M3
* Trial 38: One on One, Pirate Kestrel (2xPAC, 1xFBL, 1x5MJ, 5xMM) (0 Wins) versus ATF Fenrir(10xEMPC, 6x25MJ, 25xMM) (6 Wins)
* Trial 39: One on One, Pirate Kestrel (2xPAC, 1xFBL, 1x5MJ, 5xMM) (1 Wins) versus Terran Spitfyre(8xpMAML, 2xEMPC, 3x25MJ, 25xMM) (5 Wins)
* Trial 40: One on One, Pirate Kestrel (2xPAC, 1xFBL, 1x5MJ, 5xMM) (0 Wins) versus Argon Nova Prototype(8xHEPT, 1xPRG, 4x25MJ, 25xMM) (6 Wins)
* Trial 41: One on One, Pirate Kestrel (2xPAC, 1xFBL, 1x5MJ, 5xMM) (0 Wins) versus Argon Nova Prototype(9xPRG, 4x25MJ, 25xMM) (6 Wins)

* Based on 42-46: M4 can compete with MK3 but weapon load out matters
* Trial 42: One on One, Split Scorpion Prototype(6xPAC, 1x5MJ, 25xMM) (3 Wins) versus ATF Fenrir(10xEMPC, 6x25MJ, 25xMM) (3 Wins)
* Trial 43: One on One, Split Scorpion Prototype(6xHEPT, 1x5MJ, 25xMM) (6 Wins) versus ATF Fenrir(10xEMPC, 6x25MJ, 25xMM) (0 Wins)
* Trial 44: One on One, Split Scorpion Prototype(6xHEPT, 1x5MJ, 25xMM) (0 Wins) versus Terran Spitfyre(8xpMAML, 2xEMPC, 3x25MJ, 25xMM) (6 Wins)
* Trial 45: One on One, Split Scorpion Prototype(6xHEPT, 1x5MJ, 25xMM) (6 Wins) versus Argon Nova Prototype(8xHEPT, 1xPRG, 4x25MJ, 25xMM) (0 Wins)
* Trial 46: One on One, Split Scorpion Prototype(6xHEPT, 1x5MJ, 25xMM) (4 Wins) versus Argon Nova Prototype(9xPRG, 4x25MJ, 25xMM) (2 Wins)
* Trial 47: One on One, Argon Solano(6xPAC, 3x25MJ, 25xMM) (5 Wins) versus ATF Fenrir(10xEMPC, 6x25MJ, 25xMM) (1 Wins)
* Trial 48: One on One, Argon Solano(6xPAC, 3x25MJ, 25xMM) (0 Wins) versus Terran Spitfyre(8xpMAML, 2xEMPC, 3x25MJ, 25xMM) (6 Wins)
* Trial 49: One on One, Argon Solano(6xPAC, 3x25MJ, 25xMM) (6 Wins) versus Argon Nova Prototype(8xHEPT, 1xPRG, 4x25MJ, 25xMM) (0 Wins)
* Trial 50: One on One, Argon Solano(6xPAC, 3x25MJ, 25xMM) (6 Wins) versus Argon Nova Prototype(9xPRG, 4x25MJ, 25xMM) (0 Wins)
* Trial 51: One on One, Argon Solano(6xPAC, 3x25MJ, 25xMM) (0 Wins) versus Falcon Sentinel(8xPBG, 1xPRG, 2x200MJ, 25xMM) (5 Wins) (1 Tie)
* Trial 52: One on One, Argon Solano(6xPAC, 3x25MJ, 25xMM) (0 Wins) versus Falcon Sentinel(8xHEPT, 1xPRG, 2x200MJ, 25xMM) (4 Wins) (2 Ties)
* Trial 53: One on One, Argon Solano(6xPAC, 3x25MJ, 25xMM) (0 Wins) versus Falcon Sentinel(8xFBL, 1xPRG, 2x200MJ, 25xMM) (5 Wins) (1 Tie)
* Trial 54: One on One, Split Scorpion Prototype(6xHEPT, 1x5MJ, 25xMM) (0 Wins) versus Falcon Sentinel(8xPBG, 1xPRG, 2x200MJ, 25xMM) (6 Wins)
* Trial 55: One on One, Split Scorpion Prototype(6xHEPT, 1x5MJ, 25xMM) (1 Wins) versus Falcon Sentinel(8xFBL, 1xPRG, 2x200MJ, 25xMM) (5 Wins)
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