Is it just me or have others noticed this about X2...dogfighting is not an option, especially against Khaak...because Egosoft did not supply a weaon that can be effectively aimed at the little pests...so you have to use wasps...and they really only work right if you stand-off at approx 10K.
Any way, I find it a definite short comming in the combat mechanics of X2.
Is it the same in X3?
X2 why no weapons that make dogfighting possible?
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In X2 there are several fighters that can use PSGs (Phased Shockwave Generators), an area affect weapon that is very handy for taking out Khaak. I'm not sure if it became a capital only weapon in X3:Reunion but it certainly did in Terran Conflict. Of course, in Terran Conflict we got PBGs (Plasma Burst Generators) that are very handy for Khaak cluster busting 
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An Illustrated Idiots Guide to CLS
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An Illustrated Idiots Guide to CLS
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Master of the Blade
- Posts: 2259
- Joined: Fri, 6. Feb 09, 20:52
Dogfighting in X2 is extremely viable, provided you have the various fight command softwares to give you auto aim (or a very good aim yourself). In fact, M3s are considered one of the best classes of ship for general use, behind corvettes, because of their dogfighting ability.
Invest in some special weapons - most races' ships can use either the Ion Disruptor or Phased Shockwave Generator, both are extremely powerful equalisers - even good against destroyers! Otherwise, any M3 can just stick to an enemy fighter's tail and unload with HEPTs (Beta if you have them, but alphas are perfectly serviceable) which should vapourise most other M3s.
Against Kha'ak clusters, the priority is of course the M3 in the centre. Even if you can't sneak up on it, most M3s can get past it - and behind it - while taking constant Kyon fire from 3km out with shields intact. The only one which may have trouble is the Split Mamba, which just generally struggles with Kha'ak because of its weak 25MW shielding. Once the M3's gone you can take out the M5s with wasps, PSGs or just by chasing them down and picking them off, though the larger clusters can have enough M5s to kill an M3.
Invest in some special weapons - most races' ships can use either the Ion Disruptor or Phased Shockwave Generator, both are extremely powerful equalisers - even good against destroyers! Otherwise, any M3 can just stick to an enemy fighter's tail and unload with HEPTs (Beta if you have them, but alphas are perfectly serviceable) which should vapourise most other M3s.
Against Kha'ak clusters, the priority is of course the M3 in the centre. Even if you can't sneak up on it, most M3s can get past it - and behind it - while taking constant Kyon fire from 3km out with shields intact. The only one which may have trouble is the Split Mamba, which just generally struggles with Kha'ak because of its weak 25MW shielding. Once the M3's gone you can take out the M5s with wasps, PSGs or just by chasing them down and picking them off, though the larger clusters can have enough M5s to kill an M3.
Allergic to work.
If at first you don't succeed, delegate the job to a minion.
If at first you don't succeed, delegate the job to a minion.
An area of effect weapon is not a dogfighting weapon. Also PSGs and ion disruptors cannot always be used due to the friendly fire problems.
It's not possible to properly aim the weapons I have tried because their ordnance is too slow compared to the speed of the Khaak fighters...they easily out-run anything I have tried.
So as you say yourself....you end up chasing the little pests around until you get a lucky strike or they crash into you...and that is the core of my complaint.
If you had a gun with ordnance that could be properly aimed, then dogfighting would require skill and be fun...but its not fun...its a pain in the ass.
It's not possible to properly aim the weapons I have tried because their ordnance is too slow compared to the speed of the Khaak fighters...they easily out-run anything I have tried.
So as you say yourself....you end up chasing the little pests around until you get a lucky strike or they crash into you...and that is the core of my complaint.
If you had a gun with ordnance that could be properly aimed, then dogfighting would require skill and be fun...but its not fun...its a pain in the ass.
I presume your issue is with the overtuned M5 scouts rather than the M3 fighters which are rather slow and trundling?
You can have decent success with Gamma IREs. Just because your M3 can field alpha- or beta-HEPTs doesn't mean you have to use them. Also, you are using the autoaim system, right?
To a fair extent though, the fun of Khaak ships in X2 was that you *shouldn't* use the same dogfighting techniques on them that you use on pirate or commonwealth race ships. You have better success if you embrace alternative fighting methods (I found ramming a viable and highly entertaining tactic for the scouts), such as a corvette class ship with turrets and/or area effect weapons. The Khaak aren't exactly "playing fair" with their beam weapons, so why should you?
If the goal is to have a dogfighting experience, engage with pirates, xenon and assassination missions more. I never, ever used missiles in X2 after I got used to the control system.
You can have decent success with Gamma IREs. Just because your M3 can field alpha- or beta-HEPTs doesn't mean you have to use them. Also, you are using the autoaim system, right?
To a fair extent though, the fun of Khaak ships in X2 was that you *shouldn't* use the same dogfighting techniques on them that you use on pirate or commonwealth race ships. You have better success if you embrace alternative fighting methods (I found ramming a viable and highly entertaining tactic for the scouts), such as a corvette class ship with turrets and/or area effect weapons. The Khaak aren't exactly "playing fair" with their beam weapons, so why should you?
If the goal is to have a dogfighting experience, engage with pirates, xenon and assassination missions more. I never, ever used missiles in X2 after I got used to the control system.
So I went and tried the computer combat options against a Khaak cluster.
I didnt last long enough to get even one shot off against the M3.
Ten I tried the full frontal manual attack with the aim of taking out the M3 first...I lasted a few seconds longer...and got off a couple of shots...then bam.
A nova cannot withstand 15 or so Khaak fighters hitting it with lasers and missiles.
Maybe your game was modded...my nova wont take a PSG so that rules out that suggestion.
The only way of beating them with the weapons supplied is to stand-off and use wasps; and then close in to finish the M3 when the fighters are gone.
I didnt last long enough to get even one shot off against the M3.
Ten I tried the full frontal manual attack with the aim of taking out the M3 first...I lasted a few seconds longer...and got off a couple of shots...then bam.
A nova cannot withstand 15 or so Khaak fighters hitting it with lasers and missiles.
Maybe your game was modded...my nova wont take a PSG so that rules out that suggestion.
The only way of beating them with the weapons supplied is to stand-off and use wasps; and then close in to finish the M3 when the fighters are gone.
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Afterburnerz
- Posts: 201
- Joined: Sun, 28. Aug 05, 19:58
Khaak are a real Threat in X2 ( ha ha ) .
Gamma PACs are your friend - they have a high velocity , do good damage and rarely miss the target.
When you're at least 12 to 15 km from the Khaak cluster fire a Hornet missile at the cluster to completely destroy it.
If the cluster has already broken up fire some silkworms or wasps at the fighter to get its attention.
The Khaak scouts will stay with the flight leader ( the fighter ).
( If you destroy the Fighter, the Khaak scouts will break formation and head off in different directions to harass enemy targets. )
Then lead the Khaak away from factories and other ships - either by flying up or down in the sector - use the Stafe drive liberally to get some 'altitude' .
When you're far enough away from 'friendly' targets you can use the PSGs you have aboard your Osprey.
If you want a real thrill , take on Khaak clusters in a Pirate Orinocco or in a Paranid Perseus -
Orinocco - fit 1 x Alpha PSG and 1 x Beta PSG
Perseus - fit 1 x Alpha PSG and 2 x Beta PSG
Think of it as a 'Training Exercise' to improve your dog-fighting skills and have Fun.
WARNING - X2 is toooooo much Fun
( The EURO parliament mandated that Egosoft tone down the Fun Factor in all following games due to the Health Risk to players. ) ha ha
Gamma PACs are your friend - they have a high velocity , do good damage and rarely miss the target.
When you're at least 12 to 15 km from the Khaak cluster fire a Hornet missile at the cluster to completely destroy it.
If the cluster has already broken up fire some silkworms or wasps at the fighter to get its attention.
The Khaak scouts will stay with the flight leader ( the fighter ).
( If you destroy the Fighter, the Khaak scouts will break formation and head off in different directions to harass enemy targets. )
Then lead the Khaak away from factories and other ships - either by flying up or down in the sector - use the Stafe drive liberally to get some 'altitude' .
When you're far enough away from 'friendly' targets you can use the PSGs you have aboard your Osprey.
If you want a real thrill , take on Khaak clusters in a Pirate Orinocco or in a Paranid Perseus -
Orinocco - fit 1 x Alpha PSG and 1 x Beta PSG
Perseus - fit 1 x Alpha PSG and 2 x Beta PSG
Think of it as a 'Training Exercise' to improve your dog-fighting skills and have Fun.
WARNING - X2 is toooooo much Fun
( The EURO parliament mandated that Egosoft tone down the Fun Factor in all following games due to the Health Risk to players. ) ha ha
I appreciate your advice...but I have to say most of it contradicts my experience in-game.
For example...if I approach a cluster and attract the attention of the M3....I will have the entire cluster on me in seconds...and as you know a nova cannot withstand a Khaak cluster (when I get my Osprey that will change)...so that tactic is not feasible.
The only way is to use wasps from a distance until the fighters are mostly gone....and then move in on the M3.
I cannot lead the khaak anywhere...they move too fast...and the nova is far too slow, to do anything like the kind of manouvering in a sector that you suggest...and far too weak to take on a cluster.
I will try the PACs and see how they do.
ps: the khaak are not much of a threat, once you know how to deal with them...but they are a huge pain in the ass.
For example...if I approach a cluster and attract the attention of the M3....I will have the entire cluster on me in seconds...and as you know a nova cannot withstand a Khaak cluster (when I get my Osprey that will change)...so that tactic is not feasible.
The only way is to use wasps from a distance until the fighters are mostly gone....and then move in on the M3.
I cannot lead the khaak anywhere...they move too fast...and the nova is far too slow, to do anything like the kind of manouvering in a sector that you suggest...and far too weak to take on a cluster.
I will try the PACs and see how they do.
ps: the khaak are not much of a threat, once you know how to deal with them...but they are a huge pain in the ass.
On the basis you seem to be asking for help, I'm going to offer some criticism that's intended to be constructive.
This leads on to your next point:
After trying a Nova for a while, then an Osprey for a long while, and experimenting with a few of the other corvettes and fighters, I settled on a Perseus. It's well shielded, very fast (you can outrun missiles and any other M3, which means you can break up groups) and very well armed. The cargo bay is awful, but as a fighter, I'd confidently say it's unmatched for my playstyle.
I spent more time playing X2 than any other X game; it's lots of fun!
Even with a small cluster, you're seriously outnumbered and massively outgunned. A "full frontal" attack is nothing other than suicide in anything smaller than a corvette. You have to either break up the cluster and engage it piecemeal, or attack from behind so you can be sure of wiping out enough ships to even the odds a lot before they are fully mobile. When it's one against fifteen, why are you trying to fight fair?siddham wrote:I tried the full frontal manual attack with the aim of taking out the M3 first...I lasted a few seconds longer...and got off a couple of shots...then bam.
This leads on to your next point:
I learnt that the hard way too. The Nova is not a good dogfighting ship; there's a reason it has that turret and that's to make it marginally less crummy. It looks good on paper, but with that speed missiles are a massive problem even with the turret, and you're incapable of breaking up formations of opponents into manageable chunks.siddham wrote:A nova cannot withstand 15 or so Khaak fighters hitting it with lasers and missiles.
After trying a Nova for a while, then an Osprey for a long while, and experimenting with a few of the other corvettes and fighters, I settled on a Perseus. It's well shielded, very fast (you can outrun missiles and any other M3, which means you can break up groups) and very well armed. The cargo bay is awful, but as a fighter, I'd confidently say it's unmatched for my playstyle.
The only thing I used for X2 was the Sector Planner utility and I don't think that counts at all as it doesn't change the game in any way. As I've said; change your ship to one that can actually dogfight and don't try to play fair when you're outgunned and outnumbered.siddham wrote:Maybe your game was modded...my nova wont take a PSG so that rules out that suggestion.
I spent more time playing X2 than any other X game; it's lots of fun!
My tactics for Kha'ak....
Use missile aimed at centre of cluster.
When I am lucky,it is not just the M3 that gets destroyed.
Use a faster ship.When they are attacking ,outrun them to let them follow you.
At a safe distance ,stop and turn to face them.
As soon as they are in range ,fire rapidly.
They are so intent on getting you that they just fly straight into your fire.
This latter approach can be used for Xenon ,too.
Use missile aimed at centre of cluster.
When I am lucky,it is not just the M3 that gets destroyed.
Use a faster ship.When they are attacking ,outrun them to let them follow you.
At a safe distance ,stop and turn to face them.
As soon as they are in range ,fire rapidly.
They are so intent on getting you that they just fly straight into your fire.
This latter approach can be used for Xenon ,too.
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Starlight_Corporation
- Posts: 1271
- Joined: Thu, 17. Feb 05, 16:51
Keep in mind the Khaak are a serious threat. While dogfighting is very viable in X2 (try taking on pirates or Xenon or somesuch) it's not advisable against their clusters.
Few reasons why fighting a Khaak cluster in an M3 is a abd idea:
They're with alot, yes that M3 of their is deadly, but all those tiny M5's of theirs together make some serious firepower.
They got Kyons, instant hit, long range weapons (compared to normal fighter weapons) Dogfigthing is all about evading the incoming shots, kind of hard to do when you face isntant hit weapons.
My advice is to either launch missiles at it before they break up, only engange smaller clusters, or take out the big ships against their clusters.
In later games (X3 any variant) the Khaak are more anannoyance then a real threat, and fighters can take m, but in X2 they're deadly against practically anything, so better whip out the big stuff against m.
Few reasons why fighting a Khaak cluster in an M3 is a abd idea:
They're with alot, yes that M3 of their is deadly, but all those tiny M5's of theirs together make some serious firepower.
They got Kyons, instant hit, long range weapons (compared to normal fighter weapons) Dogfigthing is all about evading the incoming shots, kind of hard to do when you face isntant hit weapons.
My advice is to either launch missiles at it before they break up, only engange smaller clusters, or take out the big ships against their clusters.
In later games (X3 any variant) the Khaak are more anannoyance then a real threat, and fighters can take m, but in X2 they're deadly against practically anything, so better whip out the big stuff against m.
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Hemmingfish
- Posts: 435
- Joined: Fri, 14. Mar 08, 23:00
I used a Boron Barracuda for a good portion of X2 for my M3. It's fast, reasonably well shielded and uses Beta HEPTs with a decent cargo bay.
Of course you're going to get ruined 1v15 against khaak, wouldn't you expect that? Until you have something heavy like an Osprey with Beta PSGs steer clear of them and wait for sector authorities to take them out.
Of course you're going to get ruined 1v15 against khaak, wouldn't you expect that? Until you have something heavy like an Osprey with Beta PSGs steer clear of them and wait for sector authorities to take them out.
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devilofbelfast
- Posts: 225
- Joined: Tue, 3. Mar 09, 17:32
iirc, did the khaak not get an a.i upgrade in x2 after doing a certain mission? I remember it made them a bit more difficult to fight if your in a big ship like an m6 or m2. It had something to do with them flying so close your turrets couldn't lock on. I totally agree with your using wasps to beat them. Its exactly what i used to do.
another good use i found for wasps was making pirate ts ships bail. i fired of 20 to 25 of em at medium range. i cant remember the exact amount but it was at least a 60% bail rate.
One last thing, when you do get your osprey, BUY MILITARY PERSONELL!!! Also the Aegis software and a few different weapons. It might end up costing you a hundred million but its a lethal combination plus you can set your turrets to attempt to make ememies bail. I remember having a small khaak wing but cound never fing any weaponry for them.
This thread has brought back so many memories of the greatest game ive ever played. i may have to give up on tc and go back to the threat.
another good use i found for wasps was making pirate ts ships bail. i fired of 20 to 25 of em at medium range. i cant remember the exact amount but it was at least a 60% bail rate.
One last thing, when you do get your osprey, BUY MILITARY PERSONELL!!! Also the Aegis software and a few different weapons. It might end up costing you a hundred million but its a lethal combination plus you can set your turrets to attempt to make ememies bail. I remember having a small khaak wing but cound never fing any weaponry for them.
This thread has brought back so many memories of the greatest game ive ever played. i may have to give up on tc and go back to the threat.
the four most important things iv'e found out,
1, your birth certificate is an apology letter from the condom factory.
2, dont argue with an idiot, he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experiance.
3, if gods watching us, the least we can do is be entertaining,
4, Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt.
1, your birth certificate is an apology letter from the condom factory.
2, dont argue with an idiot, he will drag you down to his level and beat you with experiance.
3, if gods watching us, the least we can do is be entertaining,
4, Better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to speak and remove all doubt.
![[ external image ]](http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc431/X-IDProject/T30.jpg){kind=link}
![[ external image ]](http://i1211.photobucket.com/albums/cc431/X-IDProject/F24.jpg){kind=link}
Thank you all for responding and giving helpful opinions
Couple of points…
I routinely wipe-out khaak clusters in a couple of minutes in my Nova; and I have not lost a transport to khaak for ages now. I use wasps and then close-in to kill the M3 using a G-HEPT and an ID combination.
My point was never to say I should be able to beat 15 Khaak with a nova…my point was to say that because of the weapons supplied and the speed of the Khaak fighters dogfighting is not an option…you cannot effectively target them since the ordnance is so slow they easily outrun it…and the nova is a slug compared to them.
Fighting pirates is boring too…”for the queen!”…I gave up capping pretty quickly.
I am not an arcade gamer and I don’t play X games for dogfighting; there are other games that do that much better. I play X games for the overall strategy and economy and athmosphere…I just think it would be a plus to the game if there was a credible dynamic dogfighting aspect.
Couple of points…
I routinely wipe-out khaak clusters in a couple of minutes in my Nova; and I have not lost a transport to khaak for ages now. I use wasps and then close-in to kill the M3 using a G-HEPT and an ID combination.
My point was never to say I should be able to beat 15 Khaak with a nova…my point was to say that because of the weapons supplied and the speed of the Khaak fighters dogfighting is not an option…you cannot effectively target them since the ordnance is so slow they easily outrun it…and the nova is a slug compared to them.
Fighting pirates is boring too…”for the queen!”…I gave up capping pretty quickly.
I am not an arcade gamer and I don’t play X games for dogfighting; there are other games that do that much better. I play X games for the overall strategy and economy and athmosphere…I just think it would be a plus to the game if there was a credible dynamic dogfighting aspect.
I totally understood your post - you're flying a Nova, and complaining that you can't dogfight in it against very fast M5s. Using G-HEPTs. Hence thesiddham wrote:you completely misunderstand my postdevilsad wrote:You know what guys, this game is terrible, why one time I flew into a Xenon sector in my Teladi Harrier and there were just no weapons available to properly dogfight the Js and Ks. Why can't I just destroy everything in my little ship?!?
OP:
The whole point of the Nova is that you don't dogfight scouts in it, you kill big ships in it and take care of the annoying drones with missiles. If you want to fly around and zoom and loop and get on the bad guys' tails and so forth, you pick a ship that isn't a Nova. Your complaint that the weapons supplied don't allow you to fight in a particular style ignores the fact that you're using the wrong tool in the wrong way against the wrong targets.