how realistic is the economy across the series?

[vlesperance]

I just got into the series. I just finished BtF and am in the middle of X-tension. I'm just getting traction, but I'm a bit disappointed so far in the factory economy.

(In X-tension)
Energy plants keep cycling between 6 credits and 16 credits per energy every 5 minutes or so. If I buy at 16, I make no profit. So, I set the max buy price to 9ish. But by the time the ship gets there, someone else bought, the price is over 9, the ship turns around and flies to the next factory, and keeps missing the deals. If, for example, the ship would just sit there, the price would drop into the limits far quicker than it takes to fly to the next energy plant, where it misses the price anyway. My factory sat idle for a 1/2 hour before I finally micromanaged and forced the ship to wait. 5 minute later, I bought a full load at minimum price.

To avoid having to micromanage, I decided - I'm just going to build my own energy plant. And that's where I realized that the economy seems completely fudged. It takes one crystal to produce 138 energy. And after 80 hours of playing, the best crystal price is 1660ish. Which means energy must sell for 12 to just break even. So, why are the NPC plants selling it at 6? And why would I ever build one myself, since I can't compete with NPC's who are willing to lose money on every sale. Or in other words, if NPC's sell something for 6 retail, I'd expect my own factory to be able to produce it for 5 max, so that I could also sell for 6 retail.

I'm wondering if later games fix the model to be more accurate?

[spudsman]

Well, as realistic as cattle ranches in space

The economy gets better in Reunion where the addition stations with larger inventories but the same price range means that prices vary less as a function of changes in absolute magnitude. Also, the NPCs are structured differently in Reunion; rather than having one freighter for each type of resource, factories buy their resources from free traders that attempt to buy low, sell high. Additionally, since X2, there are commands for your own ships that are more intelligent than the standard "Buy ware at best price..." commands. The result is that while competition for certain resources may still be fierce, the cycles seem to take at least 30 minutes.

The NPC stations are selling energy sells at a lower price because they require neither crystals nor need to make a profit, as (to my knowledge), they don't pay money for anything. If NPC power plants required crystals, it would be possible to stop the economy by destroying the crystal fabs.

The reason for building your own crystal fabs would be to build a self-sufficient factory loop (or since X3R, a complex). To do this, you need a cluster of a solar power plant, a crystal fab, a silicon mine, and the appropriate food factories for the crystal fab. A factory loop at any stage must use fewer energy cells to produce the crystals than the yield from crystals->energy cells. This can be achieved, however, and so a factory loop/complex can power other factories to produce other goods.

[kyoo]

The economy isn't realistic at all. It's purely superficial and exists only to provide resources to the player.

[eldyranx3]

Better than Freelancer, but still not completely based on supply and demand. For example, NPC Energy production in later games happen spontaneously without consumption of Crystals, and High End goods are consumed by Trade and EQ docks as time passes, 'simulating' market consumption.

It wasn't perfect, but at least on the surface, more realistic than any other space trading game had tried so far.

[Morkonan]

In X3TC, one can simply think of it as kyoo suggested - "It's superficial and exists only to provide resources to the player."

However, that being said, it is very "realistic feeling." Because of the way production works and how raw materials are generated, there is a sort of fake supply and demand market that is created. Sure, it's not modeled on a large scale, but you can easily see the effects of shortages and surpluses. While the AI doesn't need any of the goods produced in order to function or build, it does move those goods so the player has something to play with... Transports will pick up goods and take them to end-users and inventories will get depleted while overstocks will force the prices down on a per-station basis. The player can witness this during game-play and the illusion of a working economy is preserved.

All in all, the illusion of a functioning economy is very good. The important thing that Egosoft remembered is that you can't design a game that will break itself and expect players to enjoy it. Many games that attempt to create "realistic" economies are easily broken or take a great deal of effort and skill for players to reach a level of mastery that allows them to truly enjoy the game. Egosoft did away with all that mess by creating a semblance of a working economy without all the game-play related pitfalls that could bring.

You may not be able to corner the market on Meatsteak Cahoonas, but the effects of your efforts will be just as financially rewarding, nonetheless.

[spudsman]

I disagree with the characterization that it's superficial and faked; if you have ever seen the effects of a Xenon Q blockade between two sectors that have factories that depend on one another in some way, you know it is not faked or simulated. Furthermore, the only factory I can think of that does not require any resources to produce is the solar power plant; everything else depends on resources from other factories.

Having said that, it's not that exciting after a while. The prices factories sell at are a function of the supply in that factory's inventory; the factories never jack their prices up just because their neighbor has also raised their prices (not as in conspiring, but mimicry). New uses for goods are not found and there is no substitution of one good type for another or labor for capital. Another disappointment is that equipment docks and trading stations act as sinks for resources but they do not affect the types and quality of NPC ships produced, although this is probably to avoid a scenario where there isn't enough material to replace destroyed NPCs, especially police and military.

[eldyranx3]

I disagree with the characterization that it's superficial and faked; if you have ever seen the effects of a Xenon Q blockade between two sectors that have factories that depend on one another in some way, you know it is not faked or simulated.

On a micro or meso scale the illusion becomes harder to overcome. On a macro-universe scale, it's easier to see.

[Morkonan]

I disagree with the characterization that it's superficial and faked; if you have ever seen the effects of a Xenon Q blockade between two sectors that have factories that depend on one another in some way, you know it is not faked or simulated. Furthermore, the only factory I can think of that does not require any resources to produce is the solar power plant; everything else depends on resources from other factories...

True, it's not faked in that way. But, there is no real demand in the market for end-products. The only end-product consumers are things like Trade stations and they will always buy and sell at a standard price since they really don't have any inventory dynamics.

However, your point is well taken - The economy does "work" after a fashion and can be manipulated by in-game events or player action. I do agree that there is a supply and demand model in the middle of the production process that the player is meant to manipulate and it is meaningful to the gameplay experience.

[Lexi565]

as for there not being a market or a real market for hi end good or weapons you could just add to ship yards the need for microchips and other things to help it porduce better ships or just more of a type at once, as for weapons you could a race military bases that try to keep a set amout of weaps frop the weapon facts that then either sell them on to other NPCs in a more subtle way as not to over power them in the early game,
just my two cents not much as i'm half asleep so what i've siad prob already happens

[Ranom]

To avoid having to micromanage, I decided - I'm just going to build my own energy plant. And that's where I realized that the economy seems completely fudged. It takes one crystal to produce 138 energy.

This mostly concerns Albion Prelude, the newest.

As spudsman said, solar power plants (SSPs) are just set up a bit different. NPC SPPs require NO resources to create products, as the entire economy would come to a grinding halt without them. Player SPPs, however, have a relatively obnoxious supply chain. SPPs are the worst station, bar none, to judge how the economy works.

The economy seems decent in AP, but if you need specific wares, you're really better off making a factory for your supply. Gaps can be found in supply/demand that are easy to exploit for profit (which is good), but if you're not into that, then there are scripts which basically speed up God deciding when/where factories are built, removing those gaps, and increasing the chance of finding whatever wares you're looking for. Droids included. There is also a script (sounds like a cheat, but isn't) which allows players to have SPPs without the need for crystals.

Even with it's flaws, I find this game's economy to easily be one of the better ones I've seen.


tl:dr SPPs are dumb, don't judge the game on them. Also, get a faster trade ship.

[vlesperance]

Thanks for the info everyone.

In spite of only being on X-Tension, I've logged alot of hours and had lots of fun.

I didn't notice any glaring enconomy issues in BtF. But then again, I didn't build solar plants in BtF because you couldn't attach a cargo ship to them, and I didn't want the game to degenerate into me servicing my solar plants.

Sounds like solar plants are a bit more fudged than the others, so I'm happy to look the other way and focus on other factories.

And after seeing how much X-tension added to BtF, looking forward to the 10 years of game play improvments that the other sequels bring.

Oh - an aside - my only "complaint" about X-tension is that I do miss having an over-arcing plotline to tie the game together. I hope the sequels bring back the story lines.

[Nanook]

...
Sounds like solar plants are a bit more fudged than the others, so I'm happy to look the other way and focus on other factories.....

Player SPP's are not 'fudged', just the NPC ones. If you look at how player SPP's operate, it's really no different than how a real world coal-fired power plant, say, would work. A coal plant would require coal being brought in to produce the electricity, which in turn can partly be used to mine and carry the coal to the plant (using, for instance, all electric vehicles). The plant produces a lot more energy than it consumes in production, exactly how the player SPP's work, substituting crystals for coal**.

**We don't know the technology involved in the production of energy cells, but we can assume that crystals are used in the production and/or storage processes of the energy.

As for the NPC fudging, it's my belief that Egosoft did this more for performance reasons than to keep the economy from crashing. In order to supply all those NPC SPP's with crystals, consider how many more crystal fabs, along with the supporting food, bio and silicon stations would be required. All those factories added to the game, plus all the additional NPC freighters needed to keep the supplies flowing, would surely cause a massive increase in computer power just to keep it running smoothly.

[vlesperance]

That's actually what I meant when I said 'fudged.' The NPC factories are fudged such that 90% of the time their selling price is lower than the lowest break even that the player can sell at.

If all factories were like this, particularly in the sequel games, I would be disappointed, since factory/station building is a radical/unique/intriguing concept for me.

But if its just solar factories, then no big deal. I'll just skip them and build my empire in an NPC-energy-heavy sector. (and/or save energy factories for later when I can build a complete production circle).

And I can even accept the concept. The aliens have access to advanced technologies that allow them to produce energy super cheap, and they aren't selling it. They're selling me cheap old inefficient factories out of their scrapyards. The bastards!

But knowing that... I'll make my fortunes elsewhere...

[Nanook]

That's actually what I meant when I said 'fudged.' The NPC factories are fudged such that 90% of the time their selling price is lower than the lowest break even that the player can sell at....

Not sure why you call that 'fudged'. All NPC factories work that way - price is dependent upon the amount of stock. As the stock goes down, the price rises, and vice versa. If they're selling at a lower than average price, that means you can make a profit by buying at the low price and then selling it to a station that needs it for a higher price. Buy low, sell high.

[vlesperance]

Again, everything I'm saying is in regards to X-tension. I have not made it to the latter games yet:

You described the law of supply and demand. I have no issue with that law. You're right - price is a function of the amount of stock, and should be. But Price should not be *SOLEY* dependant upon amount of stock.

There is also the concept of "break even." One never [rarely] sells an object for less than the cost of making it. And one never does so long-term. Otherwise, you actually make more money by dumping your supply out of the nearest airlock and closing down the factory.

If an NPC solar factory is creating goods without the necessary inputs, that is a 'fudge.' And because they are creating energy for *FREE* then their break even price is 0, and they can set any price above free and still make a profit.

The human player can not. If you sell for anything less than 12, you lose money on every sale. The human player with one factory who sells for less than 12 will eventually go bankrupt. The NPC player who sells for 1 will make infinite profit. And yet we are neighbors competing for customers....

So, they set their price to 6 (the hardcoded minimum) and make infinite profit forever. I can't go below 12 without losing money. So... which factories do the transport ships visit? Even *MY* transport ships would rather buy from someone else than from *me*. Which begs the question... why again did I spend a 1/2 million credits building that energy factory?

Hence, the offending statement, which I tried wording very carefully:

NPC [solar] factories are fudged,...their ...usual...selling price is lower than the lowest break even price ...[of].. the player...

Now, I've played this game long enough to suspect that the concept of "break even," does not exist for NPCs. They just sell within a hardcoded range based on stock. So maybe "all factories behave this way," is a correct statement. My hope is that through playtesting, or sheer luck, the set price range that the other factories gyrate between happens to be on the high side of the break even point for that product. Otherwise, there would be markets that the player can not compete in.

Or in other words, my concerns could be placated, for example, by changing the current hardcoded price of 6-16 for energy to something more realistic like 11-21. The rare times they sell at 11 could be hand-waved as a "loss leader" to draw in customers, but usually they sell at 12+, *simulating* profit. Then if a human player were to build an energy plant (and actually pay for crystals) it all "appears" on the up and up. I'm hoping that the other factories (if they are fudged) happen to have more appropriate ranges.

See? I have no issue with fudging. Every simulation has fudges. But solar power is way out of wack. Hoping the others are better.

If we still don't agree by now, we can shake hands and agree to disagree because I can't explain it any better, and fear I'm already repeating myself in parts.

[Vim Razz]

Or in other words, my concerns could be placated, for example, by changing the current hardcoded price of 6-16 for energy to something more realistic like 11-21. The rare times they sell at 11 could be hand-waved as a "loss leader" to draw in customers, but usually they sell at 12+, *simulating* profit.

You haven't quite got far enough along to manufacture your own crystal loops, though, which does change things quite a bit.

Once you control the full chain of supply (silicon, food1, food2, crystal, energy), you can sell the excess energy yourself at 6 if you want. It's not the most ~profitable~ way to do things, but it's still economically viable.

It just takes a while to get far enough into the game to establish the infrastructure needed to guarantee yourself minimum prices.

[Vacuity]

Your specific issues with the price of energy are addressed in later games. In fully patched X2, the energy ranges between 9 and 23, and in X3TC/AP it ranges from 12 to 20.

Overall, it's reasonable to say that the economy gets better tuned and balanced as the series progresses, but the "free energy from NPC SPPs" fix never goes away.

What is worth considering is that if all the NPC SPPs are selling at 6 then either you have an overabundance of energy in the system (overproduction), or an inefficiency in the supply chain (the energy isn't getting delivered to factories that need it). If it's the former then there's lots of cheap energy for your own factories. If it's the latter then there's tons of lucrative trade opportunites. At the point where you've got enough factories and traders to make energy scarcer, then you can make your own SPPs and "compete" with the NPC SPPs.

Look at it from the other way around; the market is oversupplied and/or underutilised so only a mug would enter the current market as a producer. Set about *using* that oversupply until there's a lack of supply and then move in to the energy market and make even more money.

[khemeher]

Well since we've never actually met any other intelligent species & engaged in interstellar trade, for all we know this is EXACTLY how it happens, and the game is a non-fictional documentary based on some other parallel universe.

[vlesperance]

Your specific issues with the price of energy are addressed in later games. In fully patched X2, the energy ranges between 9 and 23, and in X3TC/AP it ranges from 12 to 20.

Thanks, Vacuity. That was precisely the info that I was looking for. I was estimating that a hardcoded range around 11-21 was a better simulation. It turns out that they eventually use a range of 12-20. So, minor mistakes like that do get fixed over time, and that's all I need to increase my anticiptation for the series as it continues.

There may be functionality that I don't know about. The reason that I bought a solar factory in such a buyer's market for solar power was that I have no idea of a factory's stats until I buy it, place it, supply it, then do some algebra while it goes through a couple production cycles. I know there's extensive online databases for the latter games. But X-tension is fairly old now, and I don't know of online info or in-game info.

Again, when I saw NPC's selling at 6, that made me just assume that I could build for at most 5 and just supply my own factories and not deal with even brief shortages. Did the math. In the best case scenario, it cost 12 to produce, which is illogical in a (x)universe where people often sell for 6. So, I came here to ask questions.

I appreciate the time people took to discuss and inform. A good community is a sign of a great game.

[Honved]

If the price of E-cells is so low, then it's got to be due to one of 3 things:

(1) too many E-cell manufacturers causing an excess of supply. I've never seen this cause a problem.

(2) some other resource lacking (such as: basic food source, finished food, or ore), which causes the factories not to run, and not to need the addtional E-cells. This is a golden business opportunity, if you can supply whatever resource is holding back the factories. That can mean either building your own factory to create the missing ware, or flying it in from some other location at a hefty profit. I've built Wheat Farms, Ore Mines, or other basic resource providing stations fairly early in the game to relieve a local shortage, and they proved to be stable credit-earners throughout the game, for a modest initial investment.

(3) lack of transport from supplier to consumer causing a glut at the producer's end, and a near-shutdown at the consumer end. This is a freighter pilot's dream. Waht you really need to solve this problem is a whole fleet of transports.

....and you're calling this a "problem"?