Bombers

[BankruptAssasin]

Im considering once i have my missile plex up and running, is it possible to have my bomber fleet, say 4 vipers, or a cheaper method maybe 4 falcons to jump in and stay at the missiles range, i mean if a missile says it has a range of 10km, is it possible for the bomber wings to stay at this distance from the enemy? or will they just fly towards it or let it come closer to them?

Thanks

[Sinxar]

If you just tell it to attack target it will fly close, bombers and falcons (even M7Ms for that matter). With M8/M7M you can launch volleys at long range with the command console.

[DrBullwinkle]

Yours is the third thread with a similar theme.

A theory has been suggested that, if you remove the front guns, and raise missile firing percentage, then the fighters *might* not approach too closely. However, it depends on how the fight AI scripts are written. The easiest way to find out is to try it. So far, we are still waiting to hear a report from someone who has tested it.

Certainly it can be done by modifying the fight scripts. The question is whether the vanilla AI can be "tricked" into staying out of enemy weapon's range.

[Gazz]

My memory is a bit foggy but IIRC, missile fire is part of the fight script and kicks in within a range of 4 km... basically instead of gunfire.

Missile boats use turret scripts to fire missiles which have different ranges.
Much longer ranges in AP. =)

[DrBullwinkle]

Excellent. That helps, Gazz.

The two guys who are building mega-Tornado complexes *before* trying the test may be disappointed.

But, on the other hand, Falcon Haulers (or Sentinels) with a lot of missiles should create a good carrier-based bomber squad, even if they do get shot up a bit.

Since you are here, Gazz, there is another theory that fighters can fire unguided missiles at capital ship targets, and those unguided missiles may penetrate the smarter turret defenses in AP. Since you wrote those turret defense scripts, what's your take on that?

[Gazz]

If you can aim these things... if... then the capital ship would still try to engage them just like a homing missile.
You'd have to calculate the target lead "by hand" and somehow get the fighter accurately flying towards a position in space. Good luck.

An AI ship cannot fire a missile "dumb", without a target. Only the player can do that.
If it is fired at a ship, the missile has a target. It simply has 0 steering...

If you fire a dumbfire without a target, it is invisible to every script in the game because the only way to access active missile is to ask a ship
"what missiles are incoming to you?"
Sure, you could circumvent any and all turret defense (and defensive missiles) by firing the missile at a temporary dummy target, not the actual target. Invulnerable missiles aren't a lot of fun, though.

The two guys who are building mega-Tornado complexes *before* trying the test may be disappointed. :)

In the vanilla game, probably.
However, it's not rocket science to write a wing command like
FIRE MISSILE NAO

[DrBullwinkle]

Well, wait. AI ships do fire dumbfire missiles. I don't know how they target them, but when firing at an M2 it doesn't really matter, does it?

For clarity, are you saying that AP turrets will shoot dumbfires just as easily as they shoot guided missiles?

I think it was StarSword who said that he thinks that vanilla TC turrets do not (shoot dumbfire missiles).

(All of these conversations -- in the Universe forum -- are about the vanilla game, unless otherwise specified.)

[Master of the Blade]

I've seen the AI be incredibly accurate with dumbfire missiles - I'd say it probably fires them as if it can see the target lead reticle - they miss because they're usually launched at fighters, which change direction too much for a hit to be feasible. Against capitals, I can see the AI being devastating with powerful dumbfire missiles.

[Gazz]

For clarity, are you saying that AP turrets will shoot dumbfires just as easily as they shoot guided missiles?

They might.

All ships in AP use a completely new missile selection logic and it's unlikely that a dumbfire will be selected for firing against anything that isn't stationary.
Unless you script it so.

I think it was StarSword who said that he thinks that vanilla TC turrets do not (shoot dumbfire missiles).

That is correct.
The TC ships that have missile turrets have only FF / homing missiles on their compatibility list.

[DrBullwinkle]

Aha! That explains both observations. The only Tornado report, so far, was that they did not fire at all. That was an AP report from TDQuasar.

And your explanation of TC turrets explains StarSword's theory.

So the Tornadoes might work in TC, but probably will not work in AP. And removing lasers probably will not help in either game.

Thanks for clearing things up!

[DrBullwinkle]

I have been following the three current threads about Falcon Hauler bombers using Tornadoes, and none of the authors has done a serious test. So I did.

I tested:
- Falcon Haulers and M8's
- Tornadoes and Thunderbolts (set to 100% firing probability)
- With and Without main guns
- TC and AP


Observations in Both Games:
- Tornadoes cannot hit moving targets from more than a few km away. Even against slow-moving targets like M2's. AP will not even launch them. Tornadoes are, essentially, useless in the hands of the AI. Thunderbolts rule over Tornadoes, by a large margin.

- The presence of main guns does not change attack behavior. When attack runs begin from distance, fighters and bombers head directly toward their targets and do not stop until collision avoidance makes them turn.

- A single M8 is significantly more effective than a single Falcon "bomber", largely due to the far superior Tomahawk and Phantom torpedoes.

- Multiple Falcons are probably better than a single M8, especially in AP.

- Even at 100% firing probability, fighters and bombers spread out their launches so that a cargo bay full of missiles will last through a moderate engagement. Falcon Haulers have large cargo bays so they can carry a lot of missiles.


AP Only:
- Missiles have been substantially re-balanced in AP. By "rebalanced" I mean "nerfed". Both M8's and fighters do not begin to launch missiles until they are within half a dozen km of the target, which puts them into range of capital ship weapons.

- Also, both M8's and fighters fire fewer missiles in AP.

- Vanilla Missile Defense turrets appear to shoot at Tornadoes just as much as they shoot at guided missiles. Tornadoes are very fast, so the turrets miss some of them. However, it is unimportant, because...

- Dumbfire missiles (like Tornadoes) do not fire at all against moving targets.

- I am sure that this nerfing was intentional, because some folks thought that missiles were too "easy" in the player's hands. However, nothing was done to change that balance; the changes affect both player and enemy alike. The result is that missiles are not very useful as weapons, for the enemy or the player. A Spitfyre firing PM/AML's is more deadly than even an M8 in AP.

- Personally, I thought the TC balance was fine. I did not use torpedoes of any kind, bombers, or M7Ms (other than a Sirokos for boarding). Only the enemy had torpedoes. Missile-spamming enemies could be scary. That was perfect for me!

- Bottom line: Other than M7M's, missiles may not be worth the trouble in AP.


TC Only:
- Fighters and M8's fire many more missiles in TC than they do in AP, and they begin to fire from long range. This makes AI missile strategy effective in TC.

- Vanilla Missile Defense turrets may not shoot dumbfire missiles like Tornadoes. However, Tornado inaccuracy outweighs their advantage in penetrating missile defense turrets.


Summary for Both TC and AP:
- Falcon Haulers firing Thunderbolts makes them more deadly than Falcons with just guns. Since it is OK to put guns on them, the missiles simply add to the Falcon's firepower. Thunderbolts are effective against M3's and larger ships, and PAC's are fast enough to catch even M5's. There is no need for a special anti-fighter loadout. The same loadout will work for both anti-capital and anti-fighter roles.

- Falcons are fantastic multi-role fighters (with some of the heaviest M3 shields in the game). For In-Sector use, Falcons have small laser generators. I recommend Falcon Haulers with PAC's all around, with a cargo bay full of Thunderbolts. This combination allows them to land a lot of firepower on both capital ship and fighter targets. It is one of the best fighter setups there is for IS use.