Carrier Fighters and loadouts

[Estuansis]

So I'm pretty new to the X-Series. I've been playing the X3 TC/AP Gold Pack for a couple weeks now, going slow and feeling my way around the game. Currently working my way through all the plot lines in TC.

I'm starting to assemble my fighter fleet for carrier operations and wondering what the best weapons loadout would be for AI fighters.

My requirements are:

1) No ammunition based weapons to keep costs, logistics, complication, and general maintenance to a minimum. Missiles optional.

2) Reasonable speed for use as interceptors during sector patrols and dog fighters during larger battles.

3) Reasonable to good shielding for survivability in a variety of environments.

4) Weapons loadouts that make them good for multi-purpose. Everything from whittling away at capital ships to whacking M5s.

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My first choice are Nova Raiders. They can be bought in large numbers from Omicron Lyrae and when upgraded, are faster than many M4s(190m/s). They have very good shields, 3 x 25MJ, and they can take just about any Commonwealth weapon available. As far as I'm aware they are the best version of the Nova hands down and one of the best and most well rounded M3 fighters in the game.

They are a bit expensive, though I think their other characteristics outweigh their cost. Not many M3s in the game have the shielding, speed and firepower that Nova Raiders do.

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Something to consider:

I am currently using Litcube's Bounce script so formation collisions are not an issue.

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My current personal fighter is a Nova Raider with 4 HEPTs in front and an IRE on missile defense. I find the HEPTs are a bit slow for popping M5s, and are overly powerful for capping small ships. I find that the IRE, while great for missiles, has very limited range and is too low power to keep fighters from slotting in behind me.

I would like to upgrade with some fast firing weapons with reasonable power for whacking M5s and capping ships. I would also like to find an alternative for my rear IRE with similarly reasonable power consumption.


Other than IREs, what's generally a good weapon for missile defense and holding off fighters? Some have said the basic PACs are good for this, though they aren't very energy efficient.

The weapons confuse me a bit as none of them really fit into a "class" so it's hard to compare them. What are generally considered good all-rounder weapons for M3 fighters? I don't know what's too weak or what draws too much power to be useful or whatever. I'm not too fond of ammunition based weapons, so I'd like to keep it energy only.

Here are my thoughts, tell me if I'm on the right track.

Original loadout:

4 x HEPTs
1 x IRE rear gun

My Proposed new layout

4 x HEPTs
2 x PRGs or PACs
1 x PAC rear gun or possibly leave the IRE alone
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Ideally, I want to find a good mix for my personal ship that doesn't require too much fiddling to use, then use that layout for my entire fighter fleet. I want to be capable of lengthy combat with fighters, but have enough firepower to whack big stuff.

The HEPTs fulfill the firepower role nicely, but are too much of a pain for dogfighting. I'd like to keep the HEPTs but also add a second weapons group with a higher rate of fire and less overall damage.

Replacing the rear turret IRE is not a major issue, but if there's something comparable with a bit more power and range, I'd like to have it.

I am currently not far enough in the game to have the A/B weapons yet, so I'm stuck working with what I have right now.

[ApatheticEthic]

I asked this same question a little while ago and got mixed answers. I have used nova raiders in the past and they worked okay except against pirates using PBGs. The OTAS Solano works okay too. It's faster than the nova and has shields just as strong. It doesn't have as good of a laser generator though, so HEPTs are out of the question. It doesn't have a rear turret for missile defense either.

[Baratheon79]

A Solano with PRGs (I'd suggest only 4) would probably do the job reasonably well, at least against other fighters. Something else worth looking at (actually looks like I'm beat Triaxx2 to to it this time) is the Boron Pike. I know the stats aren't that impressive, but it's got one attribute that doesn't show in the stats - its length (or rather lack thereof). And if you can find the L version in stock, it'll come with 4 PRGs, which happens to be about what the laser generator can handle.

My personal go-to fighter for most situations in TC is the Yaki Tenjin. It's got the same shielding as the Nova, but more firepower with only a slight reduction in speed (182 m/s). And it looks mean. My loadout for the one I use for my personal use look something like the following (though keep in mind that I use this for pirating):

Main guns:
- 4x HEPT
- 3x PBE
- 2x PBG

Turrets (has both left and right turrets):
- 1x PAC in each - set for missile defense

For wingmen and carrier-based fighter you won't be flying personally, I wouldn't suggest giving them PBGs, though, unless you like watching your fighters roast each other (even the improvements in the CODEA script don't change that).

All that said, a squadron of Nova Raiders could serve you well in many situations. In my current AP game, I've got a Cerberus running CODEA with a hangar full of Nova Raiders (10 in AP; the Cerberus can only hold 6 in TC) patrolling a sector I recently took from the Paranid (Clarity's End), and I've already watched those fighters massacre a couple of small Nemesis-led task forces from OOS. The Cerberus itself didn't get to fire a shot.

[Skism]

I don't often use carrier wings - and in my current playthough I only have one wing but my favorite load out has to be a wing of Terran Scimitars say 50 odd on board a tokyo

they have as you requested:

1: no ammo based weapons

2 :a speed of 199m/s

3: 5 x 25 Mj sheilding

dunno about their "mulit purpose" guns - they only have ONE gun the EMPC which does have difficulty keeping up with M5s that said they have:

9000Mj of weapon energy!!
270 MW regen

a disadvantage is that the EMPC costs 300k so after the cost of the fighter (1.9 mill) you will spend another 1.8+ buying its 6 guns ..just shy of 4 mill not cheap in retrospect

however I would love to see a destroyer under attack by 50 scimitars armed with poltergeists my last mass wing of these guys was ages ago though ......I miss that fleet

[Sinxar]

Whatever you choose just be sure that its fully, or at least mostly correct upon purchase.

The Solano is hard to beat as a fighter in TC. Its fast, well shielded, cheap and has a great selection of missiles.

Just use all PACs and some swarm missiles. The wasp works ok for AI vs AI fighter battles.

In TC at least, replacing 10 or more ships with specialized loadouts every time you decide to invade a Xenon or Pirate sector gets real old, real fast. Personally i've found using specialized loadouts its largely pointless in most cases because they lack any kind of real intelligence. Even Scimitars go down extremely quickly vs even trivial enemies because they don't even try to dodge incoming fire, or other ships for that matter.

Just sayin don't forget to balance in how much time you are willing to spend setting them all up just to lose half of them when they collide with you/each other when launching/docking.

[Estuansis]

Well I'm using LitCube's Bounce script, so again, collisions shouldn't be a big issue. If any of you are familiar with that, it uses a script to avoid formation collisions, docking collisions, and collisions with the target they are attacking. It works very well.

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As far as outfitting them goes, I'm not fussed with a bit of extra work to have effective fighters. I just want to give them a good weapons loadout that makes them effective for multipurpose but doesnt leave them constantly stranded with no weapons power. Ie they should be able to pound capital ships, but still have the capability to dogfight without keeping their power drained to zero to do it.

I'm more than likely going to be using Nova Raiders for their relative price and firepower. At least until I can form good relations with other species. I'm well aware that there are better suited fighters in the game but they are either non-purchasable, extremely expensive, or take about 2-3 hours of navigation with SETA on just to go pick them up. And all of your suggestions have solidified that in my mind. I am currently operating out of Omicron Lyrae, so Nova Raiders are readily available, and nothing else is that much better where it makes such a long trip worth my time.

It seems I'm getting mixed answers. I have no clue how good any of those weapons are. You give all these suggestions but don't tell me why.

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So let's say I've settled on Nova Raiders and they are the only thing I'm going to use as my AI fighters.

What's a good weapon loadout? When I buy the L model, they come with 4 HEPTs and no rear gun. Should I replace some of the HEPTs, or simply add something extra to the front? Why?

Should I use the IRE for my tail gun or should I switch to the more powerful PAC? Why?

I would like these weapons to be good for OOS fighting as well.

Somebody just please give me some straight answers. I know everything is down to personal choice, but there has to be some structure to how weapons are classed.

[Joe McCracken]

I would like these weapons to be good for OOS fighting as well.

The problem, here, is, OOS is very different then IS. You want the heaviest weapons (and as MANY) the fighter can hold OOS, while this is is very bad for energy consumption IS. So, you have to decide what they are going to be doing more of, and plan for that. Just a generic do all fighter is good enough straight from the shipyard. (maybe add a gun in the rear turret, IF you plan on using them IS).

Otherwise you are asking an impossible question, IMHO.

That's my 2 cents.

[Sinxar]

I think the assumption was since you are loading up a carrier with fighters, you knew how the weapons worked on the field.

What's a good weapon loadout? When I buy the L model, they come with 4 HEPTs and no rear gun. Should I replace some of the HEPTs, or simply add something extra to the front? Why?

I've never gotten why they came with HEPTs to begin with as its a corvette class weapon (going by energy usage and damage). But if you are set on them, I would go with adding 4 PACs to them and a PAC in the turret. IREs aren't bad as a missile defense option though.

why: They will be out of energy in about 5 seconds from the HEPTs, as it recharges they will get more shots off with the PACs. PACs have a faster projectile speed = more hits.

Should I use the IRE for my tail gun or should I switch to the more powerful PAC? Why?

Again it depends. IRE is good for missile defense turrets, while a PAC works ok for the defend ship command.

why: IRE uses less energy, fires faster but has a short range. Good for missile defense. PAC does more damage, and longer range, good for shooting random things that might have shields installed.

I would like these weapons to be good for OOS fighting as well.

You may be able to get away with using 4x HEPT and 4x PAC up front and PAC in the turret.

why: OOS combat is turn based and all weapons fire at once with no energy restrictions, favoring the highest possible damage weapons.

You could always look in the ingame encyclopedia and compare the stats if we aren't giving good answers. Everything is there but requires a bit of effort to compare all possible options. OOS combat is another story, you would have to search for threads on the subject.

[Estuansis]

YES! Thank you for the straight answers!

I am extremely new to this game. I just picked it up a couple weeks ago. The last time I have played an X-Series game was a failed attempt at starting X2. The complicated interface sort of turned me off to the series but I knew these games were right up my alley, and I just needed to start with the right one.

Call me a noob, a mainstreamer, whathaveyou. X3 is the first game I've been able to wrap my head around well enough to play. I'm trying very hard to grasp all the different concepts at work here, so please try to be patient with me

I think the assumption was since you are loading up a carrier with fighters, you knew how the weapons worked on the field.

Maybe I'm in over my head then, but I'd like to start planning now so I have a good understanding of the mechanics at work when I send out fighters.

I've never gotten why they came with HEPTs to begin with as its a corvette class weapon (going by energy usage and damage). But if you are set on them, I would go with adding 4 PACs to them and a PAC in the turret. why: They will be out of energy in about 5 seconds from the HEPTs, as it recharges they will get more shots off with the PACs. PACs have a faster projectile speed = more hits.

This confirms my thoughts that HEPTs are a bit overpowered for fighters. It does make sense to me though, because the Nova Raiders have the weapons generator to supply them. They have worked well for me so far, I just feel like they need to be changed or supplemented with more guns. PACs seems to be the defacto rapid fire weapon for fighters, so thanks for the advice. I'll go in that direction and see how it works.

So you figure, 4 HEPTs, 4PACs, and a single PAC in the rear turret? I was leaning in that direction but unsure if it would be too much on my recharge and leave me stranded with no guns in a dogfight.

IREs aren't bad as a missile defense option though. IRE is good for missile defense turrets, while a PAC works ok for the defend ship command.

why: IRE uses less energy, fires faster but has a short range. Good for missile defense. PAC does more damage, and longer range, good for shooting random things that might have shields installed.

Okay, so if I put a PAC on the rear, and set it for missile defence, doesn't that also put it on fighter defense as well and it just prioritizes missiles? Am I right here? Are they also workable for missile defense, or does the IRE have a major edge on them there? I'd like to be able to swat fighters off my rear, but IMO missile defense is a bit more important.

I know M6 corvettes and larger can use PACs for missile defense but they also have a much larger weapon generator. As long as the PAC is in my rear slot, will it be a huge energy drain, or fairly reasonable?

You may be able to get away with using 4x HEPT and 4x PAC up front and PAC in the turret.

why: OOS combat is turn based and all weapons fire at once with no energy restrictions, favoring the highest possible damage weapons.

You could always look in the ingame encyclopedia and compare the stats if we aren't giving good answers. Everything is there but requires a bit of effort to compare all possible options. OOS combat is another story, you would have to search for threads on the subject.

Well the in-game encyclopedia assume some previous knowledge of the game, so it's leaving me a bit confused.

Okay, so for OOS fighting, the most important thing to concentrate on is firepower?

The problem, here, is, OOS is very different then IS. You want the heaviest weapons (and as MANY) the fighter can hold OOS, while this is is very bad for energy consumption IS. So, you have to decide what they are going to be doing more of, and plan for that. Just a generic do all fighter is good enough straight from the shipyard. (maybe add a gun in the rear turret, IF you plan on using them IS).

Otherwise you are asking an impossible question, IMHO.

Basically what I'm trying to figure out here, is what's actually realistic for IS fighting, but will work properly for OOS fighting as well.


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It seems to me that the general consensus is to buy the Nova Raiders in their stock L form, and simply throw some PACs in the front.

Still unsure if a PAC or IRE would be better for the rear. If a rear PAC doesn't suck monster power and can still swat missiles, I'd rather have that over the IRE for the extra firepower.

[Lone Jedi]

3 X 25mj and 190m/s are not quite a survivable combination for AI. I would go for something either faster or with more shields.

[pref]

Basically what I'm trying to figure out here, is what's actually realistic for IS fighting, but will work properly for OOS fighting as well.

I think you shouldn't aim for this - unless you want to carry 2 entirely different loadouts for IS and OOS action.

What works in OOS will let you fire for a few secs IS before running out of laser energy - in OOS only damage per shot counts (the ship fires all its weapons once every turn). This value is not displayed in the encyclopedia, but that russian X3 site lists it.

To stay with the example for OOS you would want to equip all turrets with HEPTs, while IS you would use PAC/IRE only.

Actually IS i haven't run into any situation yet where i would have needed wingmen, or escort. They shoot friends, crash into stuff - thigs usually go better if i do everything myself. AI is for OOS defence where it can move in a straight line and there is no need to aim

[Lone Jedi]

Basically what I'm trying to figure out here, is what's actually realistic for IS fighting, but will work properly for OOS fighting as well.

I think you shouldn't aim for this - unless you want to carry 2 entirely different loadouts for IS and OOS action.

What works in OOS will let you fire for a few secs IS before running out of laser energy - in OOS only damage per shot counts (the ship fires all its weapons once every turn). This value is not displayed in the encyclopedia, but that russian X3 site lists it.

To stay with the example for OOS you would want to equip all turrets with HEPTs, while IS you would use PAC/IRE only.

Actually IS i haven't run into any situation yet where i would have needed wingmen, or escort. They shoot friends, crash into stuff - thigs usually go better if i do everything myself. AI is for OOS defence where it can move in a straight line and there is no need to aim

My main wing consisting of 24 Falcon Haulers never shoot friends or crash into stuff. They fight 6 battles per hour.

[Estuansis]

Well just as a reference, my current player ship setup is a Nova Raider with 2 Nova Raiders in a wing as wingmen.

My ship currently has 4 HEPTs an an IRE on the rear set for missile defense.

My wingmen have two PRGs each, as it's what they came with stock in the M configuration, and an IRE each for the rear turret.

I am going to try Sinxar's suggestion, and give them 4 HEPTs and 4 PACs a piece with a PAC in the rear turret. This should keep them useful IS while giving them plenty of power to do the job OOS.

I don't require that they be perfect for IS fighting. Only useful, not big bricks of lasers with no power.

And yes they have been very useful for me. They tie up other fighters so I can single them out and take them down without the whole swarm crowding on my tail. I just need to find a better mix of firepower for them, so they aren't so useless for actual fighting. They seem to get hits, but it's not much help if they can't do enough damage.


I have also considered PRGs instead of HEPTs. Any thoughts on that? Most people seem to avoid PRGs, but they seem to me like a perfect balance of power and fire rate. Kinda like a light HEPT.
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Since I installed LitCube's Bounce script I haven't lost a single fighter to collision. I have purposely had them follow me while winding around large stations and in asteroid fields. They simply bounce off of stuff and eachother instead of crashing. I have not had a problem with them shooting me, colliding with eachother, or crashing into other ships. I repeat, CRASHING IS NOT AN ISSUE. THEY DO NOT HAVE THAT PROBLEM. STOP TELLING ME IT'S GOING TO HAPPEN BECAUSE I HAVE MADE STEPS SPECIFICALLY TO PREVENT THIS.

[Estuansis]

I know this is a double but I have to mention I just started Operation Final Fury and was unlucky enough for there to be a Zenon Q in their attack wave.

So firepower focused it is then, lol.

PACs seem to work great for dogfighting. HEPTs are simply too slow and use too much energy, so I put a set of PACs on group 2. So HEPTs group 1, PACs group 2, and both for group 3.

Everyone is mentioning if you have Fight Command software, that you get laser targeting on your forward guns. I have Fight Command Mk 1 and Mk 2 installed and am hitting the hotkey and no response. Still have to aim manually. Really a pain when fighting M5s. '

EDIT: Scratch that on the laser targeting. I was using it wrong. Got it working. Not perfect, but certainly more reliable than I am when things start twisting around.

Also thank you everyone for the prompt replies and good advice. I am using the Nova Raiders for now, but as this group starts to die off, I will be looking at some of the other fighters suggested. HEPTs are kinda rare to find in stock while most stations have a few PACs hanging around, so I might look at either a bunch of M4+ or M3s and giving them PACs or PRGs, though PRGs are fairly rare from what I've seen. Just as rare as HEPTs.

[greypanther]

The Falcon Hauler is by a margin the best carrier ship. Cheap armed with PACs in every slot and a whole 200mj shield, to soak up more punishment than any ship remotely close to it in price. You knowsss it makes sense.

[Estuansis]

From what I'm reading, the Falcon Hauler basically has some of the best OOS stats in the game. Very interesting direction to go in. Will consider it, but would like something that doesn't entirely suck IS, so I can actually use them.

I understand the OOS vs IS argument, but I actually want them to be useful to me and fun, not just stats monsters that are guaranteed a win. I could go for pure stats any day, but then I could be playing WoW instead of something like this...

[pref]

From what I'm reading, the Falcon Hauler basically has some of the best OOS stats in the game. Very interesting direction to go in. Will consider it, but would like something that doesn't entirely suck IS, so I can actually use them.

I understand the OOS vs IS argument, but I actually want them to be useful to me and fun, not just stats monsters that are guaranteed a win. I could go for pure stats any day, but then I could be playing WoW instead of something like this...

Both have their places, you will need ships just for complex / sector defence and then have a selection of player ships tuned for IS.
And if that makes it sound better, in OOS there is no guarantee to win (except for maybe the 2 terran destroyers)

[Triaxx2]

Even though I've been beaten to the punch.

The Boron Pike, in it's default L equipset is perhaps the best carrier fighter in the game. It's faster than the Nova Raider, and it's short front to rear. This means in IS fighting most shots will miss forward or rear of the ship and spare it that, what doesn't will be absorbed by it's shields.

With four PAC's it will make it's attack pass spewing PAC's for most of the length of the run, compared to a partial run by a Nova with HEPT's. The DPS of the two is negligible while the PAC puts more shots in the air giving a higher chance to hit, pushing it's potential damage higher.

Now, downsides: The Pike has only a third the shielding of the Nova, but it'll be hit less. It's got a smaller cargo bay, but only by 8 units, and it shares the same missile compatibility.

Plus the Pike is cheaper both on initial investment, and the replacement cost.

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For a heavy fighter, I suggest the Tenjin. It's a few m/s slower than Nova Raider, but has better firepower, and two turrets which face Left/Right, meaning in a turning fight it'll always have guns on the target, giving it more damage than the Nova. It also mounts 9 forward guns, giving it tremendous punch for it's initial strike. Nearly half-again as much Cargo space, means it's got more space for missiles.

Plus IS all guns are fired at once so a ship with 11 guns will tend to win more than one with 9.

[caddman]

Everyone is mentioning if you have Fight Command software, that you get laser targeting on your forward guns. I have Fight Command Mk 1 and Mk 2 installed and am hitting the hotkey and no response. Still have to aim manually. Really a pain when fighting M5s. '

EDIT: Scratch that on the laser targeting. I was using it wrong. Got it working. Not perfect, but certainly more reliable than I am when things start twisting around.
.

press k to toggle auto aim on off and semi. use ctrl for a bore shot with auto aim on, and when the reticule flashes blue your bore shot will hit.

[Skism]

My recommendation for best heavy fighter is the Argon Eclipse will have difficult chasing M5s but a full 50-60 of these will pretty much obliterate a sector even if there are M2s defending - this is an expensive option but

50-65 Eclipses

armed with x 8 HEPT then 2x PRG in the turrets

that will kill anything in my view

Note I still say Scimitar for best standard M3