[AP] Help choosing my second first M7
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[AP] Help choosing my second first M7
So, I am looking to start saving up for an m7, but not sure what to get. I have only ever had one M7 in another game quite some time ago, and quite playing shortly after getting it. I think it was a Tiger.
Basically, I want something with good anti capital abilities and maybe some docking space. I am not overly worried about using it to fight fighters.
There are so many options my head is spinning. This is going to be my flagship for quite awhile. I was thinking about a Tiger, but I have heard they don't have much staying power (no docking either).
Right now I am thinking of the Deimos (them PSGs). I don't mind that it is expensive. I open to ideas.
The other option might be to get the Tiger (or a Thresher?) and a Split Elephant and use that to carry my fighters. I think this is what I did last time.
Thank you!
Basically, I want something with good anti capital abilities and maybe some docking space. I am not overly worried about using it to fight fighters.
There are so many options my head is spinning. This is going to be my flagship for quite awhile. I was thinking about a Tiger, but I have heard they don't have much staying power (no docking either).
Right now I am thinking of the Deimos (them PSGs). I don't mind that it is expensive. I open to ideas.
The other option might be to get the Tiger (or a Thresher?) and a Split Elephant and use that to carry my fighters. I think this is what I did last time.
Thank you!
If you want anti-capital capability without using PSGs (friendly fire issues) or IBLs (difficult to source) then your only option is actually the Teladi Shrike--fit Gauss Cannons to its side turrets, which both have a firing arc enabling them to shoot directly forward, and it'll take down any capital ship you care to name without much difficulty. You can also dock 8 ships aboard and it has a pretty good cargo bay, so as an all-rounder it's hard to beat. Only issue is a lack of raw speed.
That was another ship I was thinking of. I don't getting the IBLs or using PSGs though.
So many attractive options...
Shrike
Tiger
Deimos
Thresher
Those seem to be the choices I am think about most.
The one question I had, are the PSGs capable of taking out capital ships (with the Demios full frontal)? I know they are shorter range, but I have never actually used the weapon, let alone seen a full frontal assault with them.
So many attractive options...
Shrike
Tiger
Deimos
Thresher
Those seem to be the choices I am think about most.
The one question I had, are the PSGs capable of taking out capital ships (with the Demios full frontal)? I know they are shorter range, but I have never actually used the weapon, let alone seen a full frontal assault with them.
You can, yes, but it will take a lot longer to take down a capital ship with PSGs (you have to get into optimal range etc.) and is more dangerous than simply using IBLs / Gauss Cannons for example.
Thresher looks great, but I find the Tiger superior (when fully equipped with IBL and FAA). If I were you, I would go for the Shrike or Tiger, depending on whether you want a hangar bay for fighters or not. The Panther is also pretty good, with a large hangar bay.
:EDIT: Also, with PSGs you tend to drastically increase chances of friendly fire and rep loss... I only take my Deimos in enemy territory where no allied ships are around.
Thresher looks great, but I find the Tiger superior (when fully equipped with IBL and FAA). If I were you, I would go for the Shrike or Tiger, depending on whether you want a hangar bay for fighters or not. The Panther is also pretty good, with a large hangar bay.
:EDIT: Also, with PSGs you tend to drastically increase chances of friendly fire and rep loss... I only take my Deimos in enemy territory where no allied ships are around.
Darn, completely forgot about the Thresher--its ability to mount PPCs makes it another option as an anti-capital M7; however, it's inferior in virtually every other way to the Shrike (weaker shields, no fighter docking capability, much larger and thus easier to hit--it only wins in terms of speed, and then only by about 11m/s).
I would go for the Shrike, Great shields, 8 docking bays, forward firing front turrets give it extra anti capital punch, plus a decent sized cargo bay.
Yes it is a bit slow, but otherwise it is a great all round playership, it was my first M7 and I still use it predominantly as my playership over all others even though I have most ships in the game (unless I am on boarding operations)
I play X3:TC by the way, but I am sure most advice works between these two titles...
Yes it is a bit slow, but otherwise it is a great all round playership, it was my first M7 and I still use it predominantly as my playership over all others even though I have most ships in the game (unless I am on boarding operations)
I play X3:TC by the way, but I am sure most advice works between these two titles...
The Cerberus and Astraeus are only good as anti-fighter FLAK frigates - these are highly specialized frigates and hence I would not recommend them as a first M7 - better to take an all-rounder like the Shrike, or the Tiger / Panther, which are also pretty versatile.sharkball wrote:Tbh i recommend either a cerberus or astraeus hauler. both have good shields, docking bay, and can fit a few ibls / plasma beam cannons (available in vanilla from your lasertowers)
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Actually, the "staying power" issue is because the devs increased ship hull values across the board, so it's no longer possible to take out M2's with a volley of IBL's.
Any M7 with IBLs will be able to take out NPC M7's in short order, but when going against M2 ships, your weapon banks are going to run out before you do too much hull damage to the M2.
Enter the Shrike, and Gauss Cannons in general, as being much better than before, due to the cannon's high Hull damage and ability to fire forever using ammo. I'm fitting Gauss Cannons to my M2's in place of side PPCs, they're that nice.
The other options for taking out M2's would be a fighter attack, so look for M7's that can carry a few M3's (Panther?), or missile attacks, so look for M7's that can shoot a combination of the heavy damage torpedoes + some sort of swarm missile to keep the turrets busy for the torpedoes to get through.
And definitely when flying your M7, keep an M8 on standby for mosquito missile defense against barrages from NPC M8's. Basically, the NPCs fly in formation now, and so you need support too.
Any M7 with IBLs will be able to take out NPC M7's in short order, but when going against M2 ships, your weapon banks are going to run out before you do too much hull damage to the M2.
Enter the Shrike, and Gauss Cannons in general, as being much better than before, due to the cannon's high Hull damage and ability to fire forever using ammo. I'm fitting Gauss Cannons to my M2's in place of side PPCs, they're that nice.
The other options for taking out M2's would be a fighter attack, so look for M7's that can carry a few M3's (Panther?), or missile attacks, so look for M7's that can shoot a combination of the heavy damage torpedoes + some sort of swarm missile to keep the turrets busy for the torpedoes to get through.
And definitely when flying your M7, keep an M8 on standby for mosquito missile defense against barrages from NPC M8's. Basically, the NPCs fly in formation now, and so you need support too.
I've used both the Diemos and the Thresher, as well as the Cerberus and Tiger briefly.
As pointed out, the Argon Cerberus is mainly useful as an anti-fighter platform; it's not very good against other capital ships.
The Split Tiger is essentially a bigger fighter. You rush in, unleash hell, and get out again before your shields get fried. If you like dogfighting, the Tiger is simply the next step up, but it can't take the kind of punishment that most other capitals can simply shrug off.
The Paranid Diemos is better shielded than the other choices, but needs that shielding to survive long enough to get into gun range with its PSGs. The wide-area PSGs simply obliterate anything and everything in the general direction that you point them, making them next to impossible to use anywhere near friendly stations or other ships. Taking one into an enemy sector and watching everything explode is highly amusing, but in most places you can't use its main guns without proving that "fire is NEVER friendly". I enjoyed flying this ship, but it was the wrong tool for most of the jobs that I needed to do.
The Thresher is a one-trick pony, but it's a nice trick. As the only M7 class ship that can mount PPCs, it's got the potential to easily annihilate most other ships from beyond the range where they can return fire. The problem is that you can do that ONCE, and then you're out of weapon energy. It's got the lowest weapon recharge rate of any M7, and incidentally is the one that needs the highest to power those massive main guns. Essentially, you get into gun range, fire the PPCs at the first big target and watch it explode, then hit the Jumpdrive to get out of there, because you're toothless for the next few minutes. Its inability to dock even a single fighter and its annoying width both make it a lot less attractive to fly, in my opinion.
I've never flown the Teladi Shrike or the Split Panther, so I can't comment on the Shrike and its side-turreted Gauss Cannons, or the Panther's all-turreted weapons and large hanger bay.
As pointed out, the Argon Cerberus is mainly useful as an anti-fighter platform; it's not very good against other capital ships.
The Split Tiger is essentially a bigger fighter. You rush in, unleash hell, and get out again before your shields get fried. If you like dogfighting, the Tiger is simply the next step up, but it can't take the kind of punishment that most other capitals can simply shrug off.
The Paranid Diemos is better shielded than the other choices, but needs that shielding to survive long enough to get into gun range with its PSGs. The wide-area PSGs simply obliterate anything and everything in the general direction that you point them, making them next to impossible to use anywhere near friendly stations or other ships. Taking one into an enemy sector and watching everything explode is highly amusing, but in most places you can't use its main guns without proving that "fire is NEVER friendly". I enjoyed flying this ship, but it was the wrong tool for most of the jobs that I needed to do.
The Thresher is a one-trick pony, but it's a nice trick. As the only M7 class ship that can mount PPCs, it's got the potential to easily annihilate most other ships from beyond the range where they can return fire. The problem is that you can do that ONCE, and then you're out of weapon energy. It's got the lowest weapon recharge rate of any M7, and incidentally is the one that needs the highest to power those massive main guns. Essentially, you get into gun range, fire the PPCs at the first big target and watch it explode, then hit the Jumpdrive to get out of there, because you're toothless for the next few minutes. Its inability to dock even a single fighter and its annoying width both make it a lot less attractive to fly, in my opinion.
I've never flown the Teladi Shrike or the Split Panther, so I can't comment on the Shrike and its side-turreted Gauss Cannons, or the Panther's all-turreted weapons and large hanger bay.
The problem with the Shrike is that it is very slow and a pretty large target compared to the Tiger or Panther - harder to maneuver out of incoming fire. But concerning the Gauss Cannons, yes that is definitely a non-negligible advantage for capital-class ship fights.ajax34i wrote:Actually, the "staying power" issue is because the devs increased ship hull values across the board, so it's no longer possible to take out M2's with a volley of IBL's.
Any M7 with IBLs will be able to take out NPC M7's in short order, but when going against M2 ships, your weapon banks are going to run out before you do too much hull damage to the M2.
Enter the Shrike, and Gauss Cannons in general, as being much better than before, due to the cannon's high Hull damage and ability to fire forever using ammo. I'm fitting Gauss Cannons to my M2's in place of side PPCs, they're that nice.
The other options for taking out M2's would be a fighter attack, so look for M7's that can carry a few M3's (Panther?), or missile attacks, so look for M7's that can shoot a combination of the heavy damage torpedoes + some sort of swarm missile to keep the turrets busy for the torpedoes to get through.
And definitely when flying your M7, keep an M8 on standby for mosquito missile defense against barrages from NPC M8's. Basically, the NPCs fly in formation now, and so you need support too.
I prefer the Shrike to the Panther though - the Shrike's hangar bay is big enough for most of my requirements. I don't use the Panther as a mini-carrier really, because by the time I have the money to waste on my AI-controlled fighters getting fried in encounters, that means I can afford having an M2 / M1 instead.
Hence, Shrike or Tiger in my opinion
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I've only recently taken to flying M7s personally, Tiger is a very nice choice- its shield recharge rate is greater than either the Shrike or Thresher, with the same shielding as the Shrike. Ditto for weapon power- greater capacity and recharge rate.
Its cargo bay isn't as cavernous as the others but it still has more than enough, and the greater speed is pretty sweet too.
Biggest question mark of course, is whether you have access to IBLs since they are as ubiquitous to M7s as CIGs are to M6s and PPCs to M2s.
Its cargo bay isn't as cavernous as the others but it still has more than enough, and the greater speed is pretty sweet too.
Biggest question mark of course, is whether you have access to IBLs since they are as ubiquitous to M7s as CIGs are to M6s and PPCs to M2s.
Ok, so I am thinking about the Shrike, Tiger or Deimos now. I am OK without docking (can just get an elephant to stay in the rear). Now, as far as the Demios goes, I am still curious about its PSGs. Are they a potent anti capital ship? Obviously they rock against fighters, but are they comparable to the sort of damage a Shrike or Tiger can dish out to another capital ship? I know they have a shorter range, but i like maneuvering in close.
I want a ship I can take on M1s/2s with.
Thanks a lot guys, really appreciate all the responses.
I want a ship I can take on M1s/2s with.
Thanks a lot guys, really appreciate all the responses.
What do you mean "only good"? they mount side firepower of 2 lasertowers...longest range of any m7 weapon... you can kite&kill literally anything in the gameX-Tie wrote:The Cerberus and Astraeus are only good as anti-fighter FLAK frigates - these are highly specialized frigates and hence I would not recommend them as a first M7 - better to take an all-rounder like the Shrike, or the Tiger / Panther, which are also pretty versatile.sharkball wrote:Tbh i recommend either a cerberus or astraeus hauler. both have good shields, docking bay, and can fit a few ibls / plasma beam cannons (available in vanilla from your lasertowers)
While I loved Thresher and Shrike back in TC, I prefer the Astraeus in AP. Just too frustrating to nib at the hull of an Osaka ... When dealing with enemy capitals, I just call in the cavalry which consists of six Austers. Need a Tomahawk complex though.
No, I am NOT interested in sector charts! I want a taxi mission!
Build your own XPerimental - without quantum tubes and microchips!
Build your own XPerimental - without quantum tubes and microchips!
I've used a Diemos to rather quickly obliterate other M7s, and the PSGs are indeed lethal against them. Unlike the Thresher, it's not able to snipe from extreme range and kill M2s without taking even heavier return fire (it's sometimes possible to dodge or stay out of the arc of most of it, depending on the M2), but anything less than an M2 it will usually make short work of. The weapon seems to hit multiple "hit box" areas on bigger targets, adding up to do massive total damage, whereas it only hits fighters once (which is more than enough to simply erase the smaller ones).Id13 wrote:Now, as far as the Demios goes, I am still curious about its PSGs. Are they a potent anti capital ship? Obviously they rock against fighters, but are they comparable to the sort of damage a Shrike or Tiger can dish out to another capital ship? I know they have a shorter range, but i like maneuvering in close.
I want a ship I can take on M1s/2s with.
It will mount most of the same weaponry as the other alternative M7s, other than the PPC or Gauss (which can only be used by one ship each), so you could toss a pair of something else onto another weapon group and switch to that for "precision" work.
Most importantly to me, it turns and handles better than most, is reasonably fast for an M7, docks a handful of fighters (so I can make runs in my M3 or M5, and then return to fly the Diemos), and simply shrugs off a massive amount of punishment. Maybe not everyone's "cup of tea", but definitely not a bad ship to fly.
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