Traded in the old M6...

[darth_adversor]

Well as much as I enjoy the Springblossom, I've decided to make the jump to an M7. I already had a Tiger, but I decided on the Shrike. I like the idea of having an ammo-based anti-capital weapon to augment my IBL's. And being able to dock a few ships is neato. I may have to break down and buy a turbo booster though, this damned thing is slow.

So...I'd like some input from you guys. When I first got my Springy, I took it for a spin in X472 and cleaned up. I never really felt like I was in any actual danger, shields usually stayed above 75%. So I went back to put my Shrike to the test. The 4 Q's that I rather effortlessly (but slowly) crushed in my Springy, gave me a serious beatdown in my Shrike. On the third try I finally got it, managed to destroy all 4 with about 40% shields left. They were in close proximity to each other, I always had at least 2 firing at me, sometimes all 4. It was a pretty tough challenge.

I jumped out and then ended up going back after a bit, they respawned and I wasn't so fortunate the second time. Took one out, but then had to do an in-system jump to get away. Took 20% off my hull, too. I got the other 3 eventually, but I had to do another in-system jump to survive.

Am I doing something wrong here? Or would any of you have about the same trouble with 4 Q's all at once? Maybe I was expecting too much.

Lastly, what's the best way to manage my fighters? I've never used wings, the whole thing seems sort of clunky. I'm not even convinced my fighters are going to help me all that much, except maybe as cannon fodder in case I should need to make a hasty retreat. I'm using Falcon Haulers with HEPT's.

[brucewarren]

Q's are also M7s and in some respects quite good ones. They have panther/tiger speed and pack PPCs on the sides.

Now that you're no longer in a springy you can't use hit an run tactics but have to slog it out man to man as it were. You can still strafe of course.

I thinking expecting to win a fight outnumbered 4 to 1 might have been just a little optimistic. I could have done it in a boreas but not an M7

Of course what you could do is fit the shrike with a mk2 turbo booster. It'll cost an arm and a leg for the big one, but it might uneven the odds a bit.

[Lone Jedi]

Assumed it's TC, that thing Shrike moves and turns like a brick. Ammo-based capital weapons can't make up for that.

When you can't outrun or outmaneuver multiple capital ships engaged at the same time, there are only 2 ways to survive. First, keep strafing. Second, jump out.

[BankruptAssasin]

I like the Tiger, but i think i will get a Shrike soon, the speed is a downside but being able to fire Gauss Cannon and IBL's is something i think i can work, i love the Tiger, have took down 4 Q's at once before myself, was hard but doable, the worst came when one decided to try a headbutt. Speed is very important in this game, i think the Shrike with a Turbo Boost will make a good combination, but maybe it will feel like cheating.

[ajax34i]

In X3TC, any M7 with IBL's is usually able to one-shot Q's and even M2's due to ships being paper-thin armor-wise. All you need to do is separate them, so you can do a flyby attack on each one.

In X3AP, the fight is only starting after the shields are down. Gauss Cannons do a lot of hull damage, but the Shrike is big and slow, and you have to stay in range and not move TOO much because the Gauss Cannons don't track that well (which you can tell if you try to manually control the turrets).

So pack a flight of turtled-up M3's (anything with huge shields), and look into whatever swarm missiles the Shrike can shoot, because if you keep the enemy turrets busy with defenses, the AI on the Q's will turret-swap to FLAK's or CIGs or HEPTs or whatever, and you'll be able to stay close with your Gauss and IBLs and not take return IBL fire.

Falcons don't have enough juice for HEPTs, but are good with EBC's with a bit of ammo, and missiles. For easiest control, you can either use the Carrier Command Software on the Shrike to order them to protect you, or attack enemy and dock, or you can set them up as your wingmen and then you have two keys (wingmen attack my target, wingmen protect me) that you can activate during the fight, or set them up as a wing and just order the wing around from its command console.

[Killjaeden]

It just demonstrates how overpowered the springblossom is...
You survived because they where not able to hit you, because of the speed. Now that you lack the speed (and have more size) they will hit you.

[darth_adversor]

Ok, well...I guess I feel better. I do realize that Q's are also M7's, but I was just thinking that in a smaller class ship, apples to apples, 4-1 wouldn't be so bad. I've been outnumbered way more than 4 to 1 in my Hyperion, for example, and didn't have much of a problem. Early game when I was still flying M3's, 4-1 odds were fairly routine. Although, I am at a higher combat rank now, so I dunno...

I'm playing TC, and I don't know about this business of being able to one-shot a Q. A lone Q doesn't pose any threat, and he goes down fairly quickly between my IBL's and GC's, but it's pretty far from being a one-shot affair. Now P's on the other hand, it's quite funny watching them pop with the slightest effort.

I found the default carrier commands to be a little underwhelming. Using the "launch fighter attack," the autopilot would turn on, but no ships would launch. It was surprisingly reminiscent of trying to perform a spacewalk boarding op. So I guess I'll assign them to a wing, and just use the wing command console.

I have a PAC complex now, maybe I'll just use those for my fighters because you're right, the Falcon runs out of juice quick with the HEPT's.

[Scott C.]

Also note that cap ship flying is a completely different skill that you will develop with practice.... Get that booster installed, and your Shrike will be munching on Xenon everythings in no time.

[Lunif]

When I am in something with dock fighters I just switch them all to wingmen and I have a button on my joystick for wingmen protect me and wingmen attack target which I find very useful for launching fighters. Although some times it seems like you are required to be a certain distance in order to launch fighters with any sort of attack command which is annoying so I sometimes have to go into the landed ships menu and do the all ships fly to sector command first to get them out.

[Imgran]

Ok, well...I guess I feel better. I do realize that Q's are also M7's, but I was just thinking that in a smaller class ship, apples to apples, 4-1 wouldn't be so bad. I've been outnumbered way more than 4 to 1 in my Hyperion, for example, and didn't have much of a problem. Early game when I was still flying M3's, 4-1 odds were fairly routine. Although, I am at a higher combat rank now, so I dunno...

I'm playing TC, and I don't know about this business of being able to one-shot a Q. A lone Q doesn't pose any threat, and he goes down fairly quickly between my IBL's and GC's, but it's pretty far from being a one-shot affair. Now P's on the other hand, it's quite funny watching them pop with the slightest effort.

I found the default carrier commands to be a little underwhelming. Using the "launch fighter attack," the autopilot would turn on, but no ships would launch. It was surprisingly reminiscent of trying to perform a spacewalk boarding op. So I guess I'll assign them to a wing, and just use the wing command console.

I have a PAC complex now, maybe I'll just use those for my fighters because you're right, the Falcon runs out of juice quick with the HEPT's.

PAC's rule for small to midsized fighters. I use PRG's on my Deimos' Solano wing only because they're a slightly better antifighter weapon and I only deploy my fighter wing against other fighters. Anything heavier I deal with myself.

Between PAC's and Wasps though, the cheaper, more efficient PAC might be the better idea.

[ajax34i]

Hyperion is even more overpowered than Springblossom, heh.

Hyperion can install 8 flamethrowers, and if that's not enough, has missile compatibility up the wazoo, including Wraiths, Firestorm Torpedoes, Typhoons, and other big guys, with a cargo size enough to carry enough to destroy 5 full sectors.

"One-shot" when talking about capital ships means actually you fly your ship INTO the nose of the Q, and fire your IBLs and it explodes:

- before you ram into it
AND
- before you run out of weapons juice, which the IBLs consume a lot of

These no longer happen in X3AP, because of increased hull armor on all capital ships.

[darth_adversor]

I'm never happy. I think I'm gonna try a Panther now. I'll probably miss the Gauss cannons a little bit, but more than triple the acceleration, better top speed, better maneuverability, nearly double the laser recharge, quadruple the fighters, and overall more guns (4x on top, bottom, and back) should make up for this. Yeah, I'll lose some cargo capacity, but I don't really use missiles, so meh.

My poor Shrike. Relegated to station defense so early in its career.

[Triaxx2]

Don't give up on the Shrike just yet. What it needs is some specific tactics. One thing to remember is that it has going for it something no other M7 does. It has the ability to focus all 12 guns forward on a target. The Gauss Cannons can both fire on a spot slightly to port of the main guns, giving it a lot of sheer power.

Four Q's is a significant challenge to inexperienced Shrike Captains. The trick is to play them against each other. Put one between you and another, and the second Q will help you chew through the first. That little bit can be the difference between 20% shields left, and 40% shields left.

Second, the Shrike has a big cargo bay. Fill it with Tornadoes, Tempests and Typhoons. Those are heavy hitters, and swarm missiles, so they'll confuse turrets and do lots of damage.

Third, keep the Falcon Haulers, forget the HEPT and PAC's. Use EBC's. The FHauler has lots of cargo room so it can keep 8 of them going for a VERY long time, and they do damage on par with the HEPT. I advise keeping only 4-6 FHaulers on board. The other two-four slots should be kept for a personal fighter, a pick up slot and/or two fast movers like Discoverers or Kestrels. The fast movers are fighters for running down other fast movers, or single M4's that are staying out of convenient reach. Even a wolfpack of eight M5's will make a considerable mess of anything M6 or smaller. Especially if it's Kestrels which can mount Wasps.

[darth_adversor]

EBC's are going to be a no-go for my Falcons at present, until I start producing them myself. Which is gonna have to wait, I've got more important projects planned, but sadly only a finite amount of credits. They are really hard for me to find at NPC stations for some reason.

Let's talk about main guns on the Shrike. I put 4x IBL's and 4X EBC's on the mains. This sounded like a good idea on paper, as I could still do damage once my laser energy ran out. But in reality, I found:

A. If I start off with IBL's only, once I'm in sufficient range to add in my EBC's, I'm too busy strafing/keeping an eye on shields/keeping crosshairs on target to dick with my weapons. Alternatively, if I start blasting away with all 8 main guns, I'm wasting lots of EBC ammo due to not being in range.

B. Maybe this is in my head, but I feel like, since projectile speed is vastly different between the two, that they have different targeting solutions. I'd swear that some of my shots are going wide when I use both at once.

So...I feel like 8x IBL's is possibly the better way to go. Yes, I will drain my laser energy very quickly, but assuming I don't miss...I should be able to kill my target that much faster.

It just doesn't leave much for subsequent targets, as in the 4 Q scenario.

Edit: somehow forgot to mention in my wall of text that I don't really care for missiles. I carry a few and use them occasionally, but I feel that missiles are a little on the exploity side.

[Imgran]

I wouldn't waste hangar space on something as minor as hunting down M5's. Half the time they come to you, and the other half, they're either no threat or can be cleaned out quickly with a small handful of Wasp missiles. I always make sure I have a few Wasps on hand just for the Kha'ak Clusterfuffle that can happen if you don't.

[darth_adversor]

Yeah, I tend not to worry about M5's too much. I know the Kestrel can't be beat for pure speed, but the Spitfyre is also pretty fast, and much, much more sturdy, not to mention more versatile with its bigger cargo bay. So I keep one docked as my jack-of-all-trades fighter.

[Triaxx2]

EBC's don't have the range for main guns on a Shrike. My preferred alternate is the ISR, since it fires very fast, and gives me lots of shots in the air if I'm trying to swat M6's or smaller.

And you're right, the projectile difference DOES cause some shots to go wide. The targeting cursor tries to average the ranges and speeds of the weapons to come up with a 'best case' firing solution. That's why with a few specific exceptions, we strongly recommend NOT mixing weapons.

That said, if you're using a split loadout, you'll want to set up your weapon groups. Then it's one key press of 1-4 to select one of the various loadouts.

Missiles are not exploity. They serve a valuable role in giving you long range, first strike power. They are usually the first shots of an engagement, before you close to knife range. Knocking 20% off the shields before the enemy shoots back at you is the difference between jumping home, and limping away because hull damage knocked out your Jumpdrive. Or worse, having the cargo life support suffocate those marines you just spent several MILLION credits training into something other than gun-toting monkeys. Also remember that while you don't like them, the enemy is a big, and often lethal fan of them. I've had a couple occasions where I forgot to use missiles and the enemy didn't and my shields ended up being completely stripped by them. It's not fun.

The Spitfyre is a cute ship, but swarms of M5's will out maneuver and out gun it, because none of it's weapons are designed to hit small, fast movers. It might seem like I'm making a big deal out of something wholly inconsequential, but I've had capital ships chewed up and spit out by Xenon groups in Grand Exchange that ended up consisting primarily of M5's that I couldn't out run, and couldn't shoot enough of down to get them off me.

If you really can't stand missiles, bring some fighter drones. It doesn't take long to tap 'f' and tell it to eject all. With the Shrike's (or Panther's) docking bay, once the threat is ended, they can then automatically land again as long as you have a free slot. (They'll land and then move to the cargo bay.)

[brucewarren]

I rather like the spitfyre myself. For an m3 it's very very fast, but somewhat difficult to get hold of and outfit. When I do get one, my faithful mamba raider will go into dignified retirement at the old shops home.

Just for completeness the kestrel is beaten in AP by only three ships

The pirate version of the kestral - even faster and actually capable of being steered It also has a cool paint job

Spoiler

Show

The others are a certain unarmed pair of racing ships that unfortunately fly like a large asteroid

[GCU Grey Area]

And you're right, the projectile difference DOES cause some shots to go wide. The targeting cursor tries to average the ranges and speeds of the weapons to come up with a 'best case' firing solution. That's why with a few specific exceptions, we strongly recommend NOT mixing weapons.

Not in my experience - I frequently fly ships armed with mixed weapon groups. For example, current ship is armed with both ISRs & MDs. These guns have very different shot speeds (498m/s & 739m/s respectively). However as long as both are in range both can hit. When firing it's readily apparent that different amounts of deflection are applied to the different guns - the MD shots take a more direct trajectory whereas the ISR shots are given a much greater degree of deflection.

In cases where MD shots hit while ISR shots miss it's generally due to the target manoeuvering during the time it takes between an ISR shot being fired & that shot arriving at the point in space the target was predicted to be at - in essence it's hard to evade MDs, significantly easier to evade ISRs.

Another issue, which may be contributing to the problem of shots going wide, is that auto-aim likes to target the turrets on larger targets rather than centre of mass. This can throw aim off causing shots to go wide, since turrets are almost invariably located on the periphery of the target, & again the slower the shot speed of the gun used the higher the chance of the target evading. If my current target is an M7 or larger I normally switch auto-aim to 'semi' to get a better hit rate.

[Triaxx2]

Ah. I don't use auto aim with capital guns. It's too hard to keep them on target with the slow turning rates.