How to train CLS pilots

[Timsup2nothin]

Having seen any number of references to guides that say 'stick a pilot in a disco and have him fly back and forth' I wanted to offer an alternative. I've mentioned this in numerous threads, but still see people say the fly back and forth plan is the 'best way'. Here is a concrete example, with the math.

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This guy has flown for 223 minutes out of the 284 since I hired him. That's 78% of the time. On a fly-back-and-forth plan he would be a supplier with 44 minutes in towards cargo messenger, instead he is 17 minutes shy of making supplier. So his overall training time is admittedly going to take 25% longer. Instead of logistician in ten hours that's logistician in twelve and a half. Is that really significant?

His wages so far are 1,760 credits. Wages are based on flight time, so on a back and forth route this would have been a little higher. Still a pittance, but anyone who has put a pilot on a back and forth route and forgotten about him knows that a logistician pilot flying back and forth in a disco for hours (or days) on end will add up some pay. And of course some people put them out there ten or twenty at a time. In their last hour of training they will eat a chunk of credits, and if you forget about them...

But here's the kicker...that back and forth pilot makes no money. This guy has already PAID FOR HIS SHIP. Base price anyway. When I took this shot he had cargo on that just about covers the equipment.

So if you start a bunch of CLS guys on basic routes they will not only be trained up and ready when you need them, in fairly short order they will pay for the ships they train in...which they can either take with them to their next assignment or leave with a new apprentice to train in them. And if you forget about them or don't need them or whatever, they will just keep on rolling in the credits for you until you get back around to them.

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Before anyone asks, here is this guy's simple training route. He's in Heretic's End.

Code: Select all

SPP.
 buy e-cells at 14 up to 1200

Wheat Farm
 sell e-cells at 17 max cargo
 buy wheat at 28 up to 750

Rimes Fact
 sell e-cells at 17 max cargo
 sell wheat at 35 max cargo
 buy cloth at 240 max cargo

Trading Station
 sell cloth average price max cargo

I hear the outcry.

"That isn't basic!"
If you think this route is complicated you really don't need trained CLS pilots anyway.

"That only works in Heretic's End!"
The stations don't really need to be all in one sector. If they are further apart profit will be slower, but training efficiency will improve. And there is ALWAYS something to be hauled around, almost always an SPP, and usually a trading station of some sort. Adapt.

"Blah, blah, blah!"
Blah, blah, blah.

[ajax34i]

Yeah, sometimes 25% longer is significant. People usually train logisticians when they discover they need more pilots (when time matters), rather than at the start of a game (when money matters).

Regarding the outcries, mine are:

1. Does that work for training 10 at a time, when quantities bought and sold can be significant enough to affect price and thus introduce more waiting for the prices to go back down to programmed values?

2. Write a generic guide for a newbie to do that, you know, a simple couple sentences instead of your long post. Because "stick a pilot in a disco and have him fly back and forth" is a lot shorter and simpler than trying to explain waypoints that make economic sense in random sectors on the map.

[Vayde]

Is that only in TC? Heretics End is a war zone in AP.

Also while I'm asking, that formula for the argon trader, do you have examples for all races?

[Timsup2nothin]

Is that only in TC?

I don't play AP, but I haven't seen anything to indicate CLS is a lot different.

[darth_adversor]

1. Does that work for training 10 at a time, when quantities bought and sold can be significant enough to affect price and thus introduce more waiting for the prices to go back down to programmed values?

2. Write a generic guide for a newbie to do that, you know, a simple couple sentences instead of your long post. Because "stick a pilot in a disco and have him fly back and forth" is a lot shorter and simpler than trying to explain waypoints that make economic sense in random sectors on the map.

I think your first point raises a good question. Regarding your second point, for a bonus pack newbie, the "Disco" method is nice because it's simple and easy to understand. Also, Discos are cheaper than freighters, which is another consideration for new players.

Aside from that, I definitely agree with you Tim...this is a better way to go. I'm going to scrap my current system and adopt this in my game.

[Timsup2nothin]

Yeah, sometimes 25% longer is significant. People usually train logisticians when they discover they need more pilots (when time matters), rather than at the start of a game (when money matters).

The point is that either way you are talking about ten hours or ten hours plus. There is no way to solve "I need logisticians RIGHT NOW" unless you have done something ahead of time. When you talk about planning ahead, is the difference between planning ten hours ahead and planning twelve hours ahead significant?

Regarding the outcries, mine are:

1. Does that work for training 10 at a time, when quantities bought and sold can be significant enough to affect price and thus introduce more waiting for the prices to go back down to programmed values?

Not with the same route. I've got this one in Heretic's End, another in Circle of Labor running into OmLy, another in Nyana's also running into OmLy...haven't touched ore mines, the SPP and wheat in Nyana's, any tech in OmLy...just in those four sectors I could probably have ten running. Add Elysium and Treasure Chest and ten is a lock, maybe fifteen.

2. Write a generic guide for a newbie to do that, you know, a simple couple sentences instead of your long post. Because "stick a pilot in a disco and have him fly back and forth" is a lot shorter and simpler than trying to explain waypoints that make economic sense in random sectors on the map.

I figure "newbie" doesn't necessarily mean "dummie". They can look at the example code, which at four waypoints is clearly stamped 'apprentice', and then adapt it to any sector they are in pretty easily. It doesn't have to make what I consider great 'economic sense' because it isn't pushing the profit envelope at all. I usually want to be either buying at minimum or selling at maximum, but buy a little below average and sell a little above keeps the apprentice in motion. And as I said, someone who feels a need for high ranking CLS pilots should be more than qualified to set up a four stop training route.

Plus, getting back to 'at the start of a game when money matters'...setting up CLS training routes like these is ideal at the start of the game, when money does matter, and long before projects calling for multiple logisticians are likely to be taken on. I wanted to check something, so I started an Argon Patriot game and immediately traded the Elite for a Disco and a Merc Tanker and had that guy up and running immediately. If I had literally done nothing but fly around in my Disco three hours later I could have launched a second Merc.

Point of fact, I have launched two Mercs, so apparently my hired guy in his Merc is doing just as good as I am, since he paid for one and I paid for one. Know of anything else that pays for itself in three hours with zero player intervention?

[GCU Grey Area]

Your method certainly has merit but personally prefer CLS1 for training new pilots, who then move on to CAG or CLS2 duties when they finally know how to operate a jumpdrive (or a few hours later if they're needed for a really long CLS2 route - some of my energy cells traders have 60+ stops on their lists).

Really don't like the idea of trade ships which aren't jump-capable - too high a chance that NPC traders will get there first & they're also more vulnerable to attack by pirates. Do however have some need for shipping raw materials between my complexes, the Hub, HQ, etc. Since no trading with NPC stations is involved it doesn't matter how long they take to get there, I just need to ensure that I use enough ships on each route to make up for the longer journey times which result from them not using a jumpdrive. It also means they travel exclusively between sectors which are protected by my defence fleet.

[Triaxx2]

I use Discos, because of three things. One, they're cheap enough that it's less than a million credits to buy 10 of them. Two, they're purchasable in Argon Prime, meaning they can be outfitted with software easily. And three, that puts them one sector from Herron's Nebula, which is a place I can hire non-Apprentice Pilots, chopping several hours off my training time.

I also tend to use those discos as traders later on. It seems strange, but ten discos can gather microchips or other small but expensive/rare wares a lot faster than one larger freighter, and stand a chance of getting to a trade first.

I find that they can also be kept rather safe running a four sector 'racetrack' from Free Argon Trading Station to Station in Herrons, CBNW, Ringo Moon, Argon Prime, Herrons.

[Timsup2nothin]

And three, that puts them one sector from Herron's Nebula, which is a place I can hire non-Apprentice Pilots, chopping several hours off my training time.

Bad news.

A raw apprentice takes two hours of flight time to reach courier, then two more to reach supplier, four total. An upgraded pilot from Herron's that starts as a courier still needs four hours flight time to make supplier. It gives you a better pilot to start with, but doesn't change the total flight time requirements for each promotion.

So if you put a Herron's upgrade pilot in a fly back and forth logistician training program he will take the same ten hours of flight time. He will just draw more pay doing it.

[Timsup2nothin]

Your method certainly has merit but personally prefer CLS1 for training new pilots, who then move on to CAG or CLS2 duties when they finally know how to operate a jumpdrive (or a few hours later if they're needed for a really long CLS2 route - some of my energy cells traders have 60+ stops on their lists).

Really don't like the idea of trade ships which aren't jump-capable - too high a chance that NPC traders will get there first & they're also more vulnerable to attack by pirates. Do however have some need for shipping raw materials between my complexes, the Hub, HQ, etc. Since no trading with NPC stations is involved it doesn't matter how long they take to get there, I just need to ensure that I use enough ships on each route to make up for the longer journey times which result from them not using a jumpdrive. It also means they travel exclusively between sectors which are protected by my defence fleet.

Certainly merit to this as well. I usually have a bumper crop of guys climbing the training ladder well before I have factories to employ them as CLS 1 pilots though.

You'll also notice that I do run them in a very limited range to allow for their learning curve pre-jump capability. In fact even my advanced pilots generally are limited to a single sector range and end up never using a jump drive. I'd estimate in all my games with all my trade networks I've used jump drives on about 10% of my transports.

[ajax34i]

Herron's Nebula is nice because sometimes you just need a pilot that's trained enough to use the jump drive (and only deal with a few waypoints).

[Timsup2nothin]

Herron's Nebula is nice because sometimes you just need a pilot that's trained enough to use the jump drive (and only deal with a few waypoints).

I like it because a six station training route is a lot more effective than a four, so if I can skip over the two hours at apprentice level there are a lot better options.

As you say there is that chance to grab a guy that is already jump capable. Usually when I need a jump capable CLS he only has two stops anyway. Jumping product from a wheat collecting storage point near Argon Prime to a wheat distribution center near Aladana Hill or OmLy, for example.

[ajax34i]

Yeah I tried to get an all-Argon-female CLS crew (not in Herron's Nebula) and concluded two things:

1. The process of firing pilots and hiring new pilots is boring as heck.

2. Argons are weird - how can someone named Ulla be male? It's not the only example either.

[Infekted]

There's no wrong way to train your pilots. These days I make logisticians by ordering them to fly around herrons nebula. Do they make credits? No. Do I care? No, they cost next to nothing.

However, if you happen to have an easy specific task that only requires an apprentice then for sure use that as a route instead.

Your little heretics end example works great for you, but only really works as you have no other form of traders operating in the area. If you had tons of Mk3s, or a CAG network the trade opportunity probably wouldn't exist in that manner.

Grey Area likes to use CLS1, that works for him, in the way he sets his things up. But it may not be for everyone.

I used to do a LOT of mobile mining, and whilst most of the tasks weren't suited to a training run. One was perfect. I would have the minerals collected locally to a TL, then multiple smaller ships shipping it between the TL and a complex. This run was ideal for training. Simple, easily spammable route in a safe sector.

So if you can find some good, easy training route great. But I really wouldn't get all OCD about it.. There's nothing very wrong with making a simple move to route.

[ajax34i]

But you don't understand, the Zephyrus is a fine ship!

[darth_adversor]

I have not ventured into CLS1 territory. I have absolutely no idea what it's even for.

[Timsup2nothin]

Your little heretics end example works great for you, but only really works as you have no other form of traders operating in the area. If you had tons of Mk3s, or a CAG network the trade opportunity probably wouldn't exist in that manner.

Reason number 4,294 for avoiding use of Mk3 traders.

Have you ever noticed how many things run into 'of course you can't do that if you use Mk3 traders'...and how almost all of those things that you can't do are more profitable than the Mk3s that keep you from doing them?

[GCU Grey Area]

I have not ventured into CLS1 territory. I have absolutely no idea what it's even for.

CLS1 is for internal logistics. Simple example: you have a mining complex & several weapon manufacturing complexes located in nearby sectors. CLS1 can be used to distribute the ore from the mining complex, prioritising whatever weapon complex needs the ore the most.

[Infekted]

Reason number 4,294 for avoiding use of Mk3 traders.

Have you ever noticed how many things run into 'of course you can't do that if you use Mk3 traders'...and how almost all of those things that you can't do are more profitable than the Mk3s that keep you from doing them?

Just because you use CLS2 for everything, doesn't mean everyone should! Different strokes for different folks. The main point I was making was that route would only work if you hadn't ventured into trading in any other form. Regardless of the type. In most of my games, those trade ops would not exist. Purely from CAGs.

New players, that would be recommended to use Mk3 simply for the ease of use, may find the same issue.

[BankruptAssasin]

I personally enjoy all the aspects of the different trading systems, as a beginner i would assume mk3 trading is simple, but as you get to grips with the game i can understand why cls 1 & 2 are so useful.

I enjoy cls2 now, thanks to Tim - he explained some things in his guide i never knew about and it has opened my eyes to its possibility, admittiley i am still coming to terms with it, they can be fire and forget but they take so much time to setup properly and you will need to change the settings every so often, but for trading specific wares i think cls2 is awesome.

I had a Nostrop Complex in my DiD and it was making me money, but the surronding stations always seemed low, so i started using cls2 and i was able to target specific stations i wanted to provide the goods to keep it going, but it also opened the possibility of supplying the same stations with say e-cells, ore etc so it opens the possibility of making even more money, plus i can control the prices which means i get the profit i deserve, this does mean that sometimes the cls is waiting but i don't mind that much plus when they increase their skills you can give them some extra stations which means they have a wider range of choice to sell and buy.

Their are pros & cons to every aspect of this game, everything you do has a good and bad effect somewhere, every ship has a flaw, this is why IMO the game is so popular, there are no set rules, there is no best ship, there is no set path, every gun has it good and bad points, eg i love the Tiger but it has no Hangar, the panther has the same stats with a hangar but only has turrets, the Shrike uses Gauss cannon which i think is awesome but is soo slow.

Cag, CLS & MK3 all have the good and bad points, but they all have benefits, for my style of play i prefer to keep the surronding economy ticking over as i don't want a huge complex so CLS2 works like a charm for me, i also like CLS1 as i can have a few stations not connected to each other but still providing the goods to each other. I have never been able to use CAG so don't know much about it and it's settings and MK3 for me was awesome when i first started playing, they cost a few bob befor they get going but can make u money quickly, they have a habit of going and getting killed hence why i now stay clear