Save the economy challenge playthrough

[Mousse9]

Hello all.

Recently I've started over, and a while ago, someone mentioned something about the X economy in general. Instead of building only closed loop complexes and putting the NPC factories out of business, you could build open loop stations that support them.

An SPP where there is a shortage of E-Cells. An Ore Mine where there are lots of Tech fabs, etc.

And instead of making the wares that you need, buy them from the NPC factories.

That gave me the idea of this "challenge" playthrough. Keep as many NPC stations alive and functioning.

Only open loop stations so I need to buy resources from NPC's, and make wares that surrounding NPC factories need.

Need weapons? Buy them. Need missiles? Buy them. Etc, etc.

SPP's, Ore Mines and maybe Silicon Mines are the best ones to support the economy.
To make it a little easier on myself, I have excluded the northeastern part of the map, because of the Xenon. Also Terran space because screw that.

I've done a little bit of research on this, and the ones that are mainly in danger of disappearing are the weapons/missiles/shields factories, so these get priority. I intend to plop down an Ore Mine near such factories. Or if there already is an Ore Mine or two nearby, Local Traders.

Ofcourse, the HUB plot can mess this up, you can't really avoid building complexes for it, but I think I'm going to keep them totally separate.

I know of the "park an M5 at the station and it won't get deleted" trick, but I want to keep that to a minimum. I've done that at the 2 Yaki IBL Forges, and the PBG Forge in the sector next to PTNI HQ.

Now, I have questions (well duh, otherwise I wouldn't have posted).

1. Aside from weapons, missiles and shield fabs, which ones are also in danger of being killed by GoD?
I'm asking this because in my game, in Kingdom End the Crystal, Microchip and Computer Component factories are GONE. Day 2, and all three are gone. They would've been greatly helpful for the HUB plot...

2. Since I eventually want to mess about with practically every weapon in the game, which "rare" weapons fabs should have priority? Ion weapons? Flak? Are there buyable missiles whose factories are "rare"?

3. Can I sell weapons at EqDocks? For example, if I buy IBL's or PPC's because their NPC station is full of them, can I sell them at EqDocks? I know I can sell missiles this way, not sure about weapons...

4. Anything I've missed? Suggestions?

[Timsup2nothin]

1. Aside from weapons, missiles and shield fabs, which ones are also in danger of being killed by GoD?
I'm asking this because in my game, in Kingdom End the Crystal, Microchip and Computer Component factories are GONE. Day 2, and all three are gone. They would've been greatly helpful for the HUB plot...

2. Since I eventually want to mess about with practically every weapon in the game, which "rare" weapons fabs should have priority? Ion weapons? Flak? Are there buyable missiles whose factories are "rare"?

3. Can I sell weapons at EqDocks? For example, if I buy IBL's or PPC's because their NPC station is full of them, can I sell them at EqDocks? I know I can sell missiles this way, not sure about weapons...

4. Anything I've missed? Suggestions?

Number one. GoD will remove ANY station. The criteria is actually pretty simple. It is FULL of product. No one has landed for some period of time. Sounds like in your game the fabs in KE started out full (or near full with enough resources to get full) and there were no tech traders looking to buy in that secluded corner. They also probably started with enough resources in stock that no resource traders had any reason to land. So full product bays, no traffic, and as soon as enough time passed they were gone.

Number two. The GoD taketh, but also giveth back. However rare things may be at times, any fab that has been taken out by the GD algorithm will be eventually put back.

Number three. Yes you can.

Number four. Probably, but whatever you've missed will come up as you go along and be learned from.


Now for an overall statement.

The economy starts out 'broken' in many ways. This gives the player opportunities to jump in and establish their place in the universe. The economy will in fact 'heal itself' over time, though perhaps not to the player's benefit. The number of NPC haulers is fixed. Stations will disappear and come back and NPC haulers will redistribute themselves until some sort of general balance is established. This general balance may not include your favorite widget factory being widely represented, but the economy will at that point be working. This balance is still dynamic but it is harder to find ways to work yourself into the economy.

[Mousse9]

I know GoD will remove any station, but the likelihood of certain stations disappearing is drastically lower than others. SPP's for example. Food producing factories.

Do the NPC's even buy weapons/missiles from NPC fabs?

I've played for many, many hours the last time, and I don't think I've EVER discovered a NEW station that wasn't there before...It must be extremely rare. Or I keep failing Spot Checks...


.....So, my challenge is actually NOT a challenge at all? Well, dang...

[Timsup2nothin]

I know GoD will remove any station, but the likelihood of certain stations disappearing is drastically lower than others. SPP's for example. Food producing factories.

Do the NPC's even buy weapons/missiles from NPC fabs?

I've played for many, many hours the last time, and I don't think I've EVER discovered a NEW station that wasn't there before...It must be extremely rare. Or I keep failing Spot Checks...


.....So, my challenge is actually NOT a challenge at all? Well, dang...

SPPs and food fabs do disappear...frequently in fact. But I think they are high on the priority list to be replaced.

Yes NPC weapon traders and tech traders will buy them, but weapon traders and tech traders are very easily sidetracked off to the far end of the universe in mass which can leave an area with no buyers for extended periods.

You won't discover any NEW stations because the algorithm will only put back stations it removed. You may well see a new station, but it looks just like the old station so not much of a discovery.

The challenge you are looking for is to participate in the economy, not to save it. If you look at the vast majority of player strategies they are focused on avoiding the economy rather than participating. Closed loop fabs so you don't need to interact for resources. A fleet to consume the missiles and weapons produced so no need to sell them. Add your own AI haulers to the mix to bring in credits from the economy without actually having to be involved yourself. These are great and effective and I'm not knocking them, but if you play to be involved in the economy you will find the game is much different than it has been in your previous plays...and quite challenging.

[Mousse9]

With all this....wouldn't a lot of Local Traders/Universe Traders and a few key Ore Mines/SPP/Food Fabs be the best way?

LT and UT to keep things moving and make a profit along the way, and some Ore Mines/SPP's in key places to prop up the NPC stations.

Seems like it's time to invest in a lot more LT's.

I have 5 Local Traders right now. 1 is centered on Argon Prime, 1 is in Queen's Space, 1 is in Greater Profit, 1 is in Rhonkar's Fire, and the last 1 in Friar's Retreat.

This way I have all the Commonwealth races covered on the west side of the map. I even have my starter Mercury in Elysium of Light trading with the Goners.

3 more in training, for later expansion.

Anyway, I'm gonna see how the "no closed loop complex" will hold up in my plays....

[Timsup2nothin]

Mk3 traders run just like other AI driven traders, so effectively adding them has the same effect as adding more NPC haulers would have which certainly helps keep things moving. Add to this that they can use jump drives which makes them more efficient and unless you make them UTs they won't wander off with the rest of the herd and each one might be worth three or more NPC haulers to the economy as a whole. But they still share some of the severe weaknesses of other AI driven traders.

The biggest problem for Mk3s, from an economy support perspective, is that they want to move the most profitable goods and the only way e-cells are the most profitable is if their entire territory has ground to a halt for lack of e-cells. So if the NPC energy haulers migrate away, which they always do periodically, the region will grind to a halt. It is even possible that by the time your Mk3s get done moving all the valuable goods around and gets reduced to moving e-cells one or more SPPs may have filled up and been removed.

To participate in the economy at the start of the game just identify an opportunity and grab it. In my current game I started in an area where consumers of one bio product outnumbered producers nearly two to one. Obviously moving and eventually producing that bio product is a golden opportunity.

Participating in the economy as the game progresses will involve either pushing out competitors (harder), or creating new opportunities (easier). To create opportunities I look at station building missions. I don't look so much at the immediate payoff, I look at what's in it for me. If I am transporting and producing Bogas in a region and someone wants to build a Bofu Lab...I'm in! If they want to build a Bogas plant I'll only do it if the region is still short even with my production facility running full blast...and even then I'll seriously look at whether it would be better to build it for myself instead.

[thelebk]

I am enjoying this thread quite a bit guys. This is the style of game I could see myself playing as soon as I finish X3R.

[Mousse9]

About the stationbuilding missions, I never considered what the station would do for the sector it was put in. Only whether it paid a lot, and whether I could buy it.

Right now, I need to make a bit more money before I can start doing Build missions. I've got 2 mil after buying an Ore Mine and outfitting the Mistral SF CAG for it.

Also, I have a Sector Trader in training in Queen's Harbour because someone said it was a good training area, and saw it on Standby. When I checked, one of the SPP's was full of E-Cells, and some stations were willing to buy them at 17Cr. Even when I restarted it as Sector Trader, it immediately went on Standby. Curious...

[Timsup2nothin]

Also, I have a Sector Trader in training in Queen's Harbour because someone said it was a good training area, and saw it on Standby. When I checked, one of the SPP's was full of E-Cells, and some stations were willing to buy them at 17Cr. Even when I restarted it as Sector Trader, it immediately went on Standby. Curious...

I did my share of Mk3 so the problems are familiar, but I stopped using them so long ago that the solutions have mostly been forgotten...I assume when you restarted him you made sure he was free of old cargo...do they go on standby when there are enemies in the sector? CLS goes 'idle' so you know it isn't just waiting for freight...ummm...hopefully one of the Mk3 types will come up with something better.

[Sirrobert]

There are almost always opertunitys in the energy market. I always see some sector that's empty on energy, way more than I see SSPs that are full

It's to bad SSPs are so expencive, or I'd put them all over the place right from the start

[Ormac]

Of course, the HUB plot can mess this up, you can't really avoid building complexes for it, but I think I'm going to keep them totally separate.

No not really if your not creating closed loops. Sure you may need to support and expand the NPC economy somewhat.

I'm still working through my first HUB run. I'm up to ore so I've shifted all the previous material and only did that with two of my own Teladianum fabs and an extra half dozen that I built on request.
I've parked scouts and fighters as Traps on NPC chip plants but you've said you want to avoid that as much as you can.

So if some NPC is interested in the HUB, that NPC can ask the PLAYER to organise the other NPCs to get the NPC a few things...

I've recently been contracted by Jonferco and they've wanted a chip plant in Midnight Star which I've quite happily built for them.
And a lot of crystal output has been added to my universe economy as well

So as Tim has recently told you you may need to think a little bit about the NPC build requests occasionally

-- Ormac

[Sirrobert]

If you time it right it's (I believe) even cheaper to use the NPC factorys.

Using your own, you have: Startup costs, material costs

If you use an NPC factory, you don't have startup costs. If you feed the fab, you have the material costs at minimum (like you had with your own).
But if I want to make a profit out of my ore mine, I'd need to sell the ore at (atleast) 84 credits. NPC ore mines (when full) will sell me ore at 50 credits. That's cheaper than I can make it, and without the startup costs.

Ofcourse the NPCs make a loss, but they still produce, so they stay active

[Timsup2nothin]

There are almost always opertunitys in the energy market. I always see some sector that's empty on energy, way more than I see SSPs that are full

It's to bad SSPs are so expencive, or I'd put them all over the place right from the start

Look in the more 'dead end' areas...Heretic's End/Circle of Labor, down in Queen's Harbor as Mousse9 has noticed, anywhere in Terran space. Energy haulers have a hard time finding their way into them. Full SPPs are actually pretty common. The big opportunity in e-cells is to connect traps buying at minimum in those places to distribution networks in the places you've seen where there might be entire sectors shut down for lack.

[Ormac]

@Sirrobert

I am not even going to consider building my own ore mine because of the abundance of ore at low low prices. I've got one CLS going between two mines and HUB transferring ore at the moment.

He needs more waypoints and I need more CLS pilots.

During the Teladianium bit I bought up at 100 or below. especially at Grand Exchange and surrounds more to keep it progressing.

with the chips I'm not going to get at minimum and I'll be hard pressed for below average but with 400 Million in the Bank I'm not worried about average or a bit more from the NPCs.

-- Ormac

[Timsup2nothin]

An NPC microchip fab will sell 20 at average price. When they make number 21 their price drops below average. That's when NPC haulers will set a course for the plant. If you have a guy docked already (fly to station) and set to buy at one below average he will buy their entire output, 21 units at a time, before any NPC hauler can get there. The price on a block of 21 is actually more than one below average, so that's what he will pay.

If you put such a guy in every chip plant in the universe, and then take some pains to make sure those plants never run out of resources, you can actually do the hub plot without building any chip plants at all. Maybe not as fast as the complex builders can...or maybe faster if you count the time they spend hauling silicon 'roids around with a tractor beam. The fastest way, of course, is to do both.

[Mousse9]

Hmmm...I'm starting to waffle about the Ore Mines. Before, I always said I'd never build Ore Mines, because I can almost always get Ore at minimum prices, but...see below.

I put an Ore Mine on a 90 Yield asteroid in Antigone Memorial, and put a Mistral SF Cag on it, for both buying and selling. Not allowed the Mine to trade with NPC's.
The CAG was Cargo Messenger so he could use Jumpdrive, and I set the Ore price to 128 (average price). Trade distance = 5.

I stayed on SETA for about 10 minutes, and the CAG kept selling for that entire time with no idle or standby (though I'm not sure 10 minutes is long enough).

Even if it doesn't work out, I could allocate the Ore to the HUB plot. And if it REALLY doesn't work out, I have a save from before I built the Mine.

@Ormac: When I meant the parking an M5 to prevent deletion, I meant it purely for that, no other purpose. Keeping an M5 or other ship at a Microchip plant and buying up Microchips as they are produced, that's a whole other ballgame.
Although I've never EVER seen a Microchip plant that was even 50% full. Most have like 2 or 3.

[Sirrobert]

Yea I have an Ore mine at the 90 yield asteroid (1 of them) to, but my CAG has a 20 jump range. Basicly that means that there is always someone in the universe buying at max price

[Mousse9]

Hm, I can't find the info anywhere, does a CAG need to be higher level to have a bigger jumprange? Or is Cargo Messenger (access to Jumpdrive) enough for the entire universe?

I put mine to 5 so he can trade in nearly the entire Argon and Boron areas there. Especially the weapons/shields/missile fabs. Once I actually start fleet building, having all these things closeby would be very nice. Makes for easy equipping.

[Sirrobert]

Hm, I can't find the info anywhere, does a CAG need to be higher level to have a bigger jumprange? Or is Cargo Messenger (access to Jumpdrive) enough for the entire universe?

I put mine to 5 so he can trade in nearly the entire Argon and Boron areas there. Especially the weapons/shields/missile fabs. Once I actually start fleet building, having all these things closeby would be very nice. Makes for easy equipping.

I'm pritty sure he can jump anywhere you allow him as soon as he learns the secrets of Shift+J

Just remember to tell him to bring enough jumpfuel (max jumprange x 2)

[Ormac]

What Sirrobert is saying is that the CAG will jump as far from the Home Base as you'll allow i.e 5 sectors just remember to reserve enough e-cells to let him jump back.

I understood your M5 statement as protect from the finger of GoD (factory delete) but the stationary trap does the same thing if it's with enough forward planning.

Maybe with enough training and money I could transform it into a mobile trap and we get a work around to the - NO PARKING restriction.

I happen to be towards the other end of the universe after a personalized Terran Defender start and with the exploration forced by the TERRAN PLOT more chip plants appeared on my radar than I expected.

-- Ormac