HEPT, CIG or ISR ?

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Cursed Ghost
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HEPT, CIG or ISR ?

Post by Cursed Ghost » Wed, 13. Aug 14, 20:16

hi all

I'm wondering I just caped a Agamemnon and I'm trying to figure out what would be the best guns for the main battery CIGs, ISR, HEPT and when I ran the numbers I got a bit of a surprise that I wasn't expecting it seems that HEPT might actually be better then CIGS despite clearly being a weaker weapon here is how I arrived at that conclusion
CIG

Damage per Second (Hull): 3200 X 60 sec = 192000 Damage per min
Damage per Second (Shield): 9800 X 60 sec = 588000 Damage per min
Energy Cost per sec 307 X 60 sec = 18420 Energy Cost per minute

Damage per min (Hull): 192000 / energy cost per minute 18450 = 10.40650407
Damage per min (Shield): 588000 / energy cost per minute 18450 = 31.8699187

ISR

Damage per Second (Hull): 3700 X 60 sec = 222000 Damage per min
Damage per Second (Shield): 10200 X 60 sec = 612000 Damage per min
Energy Cost per Sec: 476 X 60 sec = 28560 energy cost per minute

Damage per min (Hull): 222000 / energy cost per minute 28560 = 7.773109244
Damage per min (Shield): 612000 / energy cost per minute 28560 = 21.428557143

HEPT

Damage per Second (Hull): 1500 X 60 sec = 90000 Damage per min
Damage per Second (Shield): 9400 X 60 sec = 564000 Damage per min
Energy Cost per Sec: 188 x 60 sec = 11280 energy cost per minute

Damage per min (Hull): 90000 / energy cost per minute 11280 = 7.978723404
Damage per min (Shield): 564000 / energy cost per minute 11280 = 50
it would seem that while the CIGs come out on top for hull damage due to the higher rate of fire and the fact the HEPTs use only a fraction of the energy that CIGs do in a given time frame HEPTs are potentially capable of doing almost twice the shield damage as CIGs and that doesn't seem right to me so I was wondering if someone would look over my math to see I've made a mistake somewhere.

Honved
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Post by Honved » Wed, 13. Aug 14, 22:58

Depends on whether your limiting factor is energy or weapon slots. In IS combat, HEPT is very probably the better approach for an M6 class ship, while an M7 can almost certainly afford to power those CIGs, and they've got marginally better range. OOS, the higher damage per shot of CIG trumps any considerations of power draw, rate of fire, or other such game mechanics which are NOT considered in abstracted remote combat. Bigger damage numbers win, except with ammo-based weapons, which have "issues" OOS.

The higher projectile speed and slightly longer range of ISRs gives them a niche role, but they're not that good for general-purpose use.

riceygringo
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Post by riceygringo » Wed, 13. Aug 14, 23:38

Honved wrote:Depends on whether your limiting factor is energy or weapon slots. In IS combat, HEPT is very probably the better approach for an M6 class ship, while an M7 can almost certainly afford to power those CIGs, and they've got marginally better range. OOS, the higher damage per shot of CIG trumps any considerations of power draw, rate of fire, or other such game mechanics which are NOT considered in abstracted remote combat. Bigger damage numbers win, except with ammo-based weapons, which have "issues" OOS.

The higher projectile speed and slightly longer range of ISRs gives them a niche role, but they're not that good for general-purpose use.
Actually it depends on the game, in X3AP most M6s had the sizes of their laser generators tripled or even quadrupled, giving most M6s higher recharge rates than some M7s.

But for the answer to the OP's question, I would go with IBLs on the sides for anti-capital power, supplemented with PSGs which has higher dps than any of the weapons you listed.

Cursed Ghost
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Post by Cursed Ghost » Thu, 14. Aug 14, 05:11

Actually it depends on the game, in X3AP most M6s had the sizes of their laser generators tripled or even quadrupled, giving most M6s higher recharge rates than some M7s.
The game is TC so weapon power is an issue even for M7s my Aggy has the following load out

Main 8 CIGs
Front 4 IBL
Left 4 FAA or PSG
Right 4 FAA or PSG
Back 2 PACs or PSG

if I only got the CIGs going I can sustain fire for about 60 seconds but if I got the turrets going to then I can only sustain fire for about 20 seconds before I run out of power in the Aggy although that is probably more a problem of using PSG/FAA/IBL in the turrets, unfortunately there are no better options for fighter defence/capital combat I just wish FAA had longer range up to about 3km and about half the energy use either that or TC needs another patch to double, triple or quadruple the generators of every craft in the game to make sure you can sustain fire for a decent period of time even when using heavy weapons because 20 seconds is nowhere near long enough not when you facing 6 corvettes at a time and you are fighting multiple waves back to back

as for M6s they have it even worse even the mighty Hyperion which is easily the best m6 with the exception of the springy maybe can't operate anything bigger than HEPTs the generator simply isn't powerful enough and at most in the Hyperion you will only get about 10 seconds of sustained fire with 8 CIGs and that's without the turret firing if the turrets are going to then that is reduced further fortunately I can just pilot the Hyperion like a fighter and just equip it with 4 PBEs and 4 PBG in the main battery which gives me the power to decimate all but the toughest of targets and it gives me the ability to cap ships and deal with pesky fast moving targets particularly if you get the overturned one from the poisoned paranid start although I haven’t quiet worked out how to unlock that yet so I’m just flying the standard version but even that is still a good ship

just a shame they didn’t add the tuning crates to TC that and give the Hyperion the ability to mount flack or at least something like PRG that has a fast bullet speed that is able to hit fast targest, decent range and punch that is capable of dealing with even M3+ fighters while at the same time not draining to much power I guess I could always try EBCs but I never did like ammo based weapons M/AML aren't to bad due because they don't chew through the ammo but EBC have a much higher rate of fire which can be a problem
Depends on whether your limiting factor is energy or weapon slots. In IS combat, HEPT is very probably the better approach for an M6 class ship, while an M7 can almost certainly afford to power those CIGs, and they've got marginally better range. OOS, the higher damage per shot of CIG trumps any considerations of power draw, rate of fire, or other such game mechanics which are NOT considered in abstracted remote combat. Bigger damage numbers win, except with ammo-based weapons, which have "issues" OOS.

The higher projectile speed and slightly longer range of ISRs gives them a niche role, but they're not that good for general-purpose use.
Nar my limiting factor is being able to sustain fire for long periods of time in protracted fights while still having sufficient punch that I can deal with even big targets like the M2s you face at the end of OFF

Although given the issues of turret coverage I’ve faced in the Aggy during the last OFF mission I think I’m going to try a different M7 that doesn’t have a massive blind spot at the top and bottom it’s a shame there is no M7 variant of the Hyperion that would easily trump both the Aggy and the Demos and most probably every other M7 as well

what I'd actually like is a pocket frigate something that is smaller faster and more manoeuvrable than an M7 while at the same time having the heaver shielding and fire power of a frigate because as good as the Hyperion is the shielding I think needs to be a bit stronger the speed needs to be a bit faster and the fire power needs to be a bit heaver I think stats wise this hybrid m6/m7 would look something like this

Engine speed: 180 m/s to 200m/s
Turn speed: 12.2 to 24.4
Shields: 1,500MJ to 2,000MJ
Shields recharge: 14,400
Weapon energy: 74,000
Weapon recharge: 2,200
cargo bay: 6,333 XL

then of course give it an appropriate compliment of turrets and weapons now that would obviously require a bit of tweaking because that might prove a bit to strong but what I'm aiming at is something that is in-between the Hyperion and the Carrack but with a slight buffs to manoeuvrability and to reactor power to address the short comings of current ship balance that are insufficient and leaving ships to slow and unmanoeuvrable to be playable or to underpowered in the reactor department to have sufficient longevity in long fights

pjknibbs
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Post by pjknibbs » Thu, 14. Aug 14, 10:17

Cursed Ghost wrote:and give the Hyperion the ability to mount flack or at least something like PRG that has a fast bullet speed that is able to hit fast targest, decent range and punch that is capable of dealing with even M3+ fighters while at the same time not draining to much power
Flak gobbles energy like it's going out of fashion, and you want to use them on a ship where you reckon you're already running out of energy? As for PRG, just use PAC--they're really not bad, especially when you can get several in a Hyppie's turrets bearing on a target. EBC do run through ammo pretty fast, but the Hyperion has a vast cargo bay and can take an awful lot of crates of ammo--if you have 8 EBCs on the front guns you'll chew through about 16 crates of ammo every minute, but you'd be surprised how little you actually need when you're dealing that level of damage!

Honved
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Post by Honved » Thu, 14. Aug 14, 15:43

With an Aggie, the correct loadout answer in my opinion is: "None of the above". It's a Paranid capital ship which is capable of mounting PSGs. Do so. You probably don't want to use them in Commonwealth space, because "friendly fire" issues will cause those friendlies to become very unfriendly in short order, but in a Xenon or Kha'ak sector, they're worth their weight in gold.

The other highly effective weapon you have is massive shield generators, so all you need to do is fly THROUGH those pesky corvettes and watch them explode. If you're sitting there trading fire at long range in a Paranid capital ship, you're wasting 75% of its potential. I used a Diemos for OFF, and it was extremely unfair to those poor bugs, who barely even had time to see what hit them. The lighter stuff simply evaporated under combined turret fire from the PSGs, and the heavy stuff blew up when I rammed it. In one mission the Diemos was regenerating shields faster than it was losing them while taking on waves of fighters, after plowing through 3 Corvettes in rapid succession, while my previous Cerberus got eaten in seconds in that same mission, no matter what I did.

Incidentally, most M7s can mount IBLs in the turrets, which are far more powerful than the CIG, ISR, or HEPT.

hisazul
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Post by hisazul » Thu, 14. Aug 14, 17:52

The problem with your math is that you assume a perfect scenario where you just hold fire button for 1 minute. Unless you are shooting asteroids that won't happen.

1. CIG vs fighter is about 80% wasted shots simply because it throws them around like there is no tomorrow.

2. When you evade / turbo booster out of the way/ maneuver/etc you tend to need to move your nose out of the way and you stop shooting. With maneuvers that eliminate most damage you never really run out of energy even if we are talking hyp shooting 8 ISR. Especially when it comes to mid class taking on capitals... yeah I can take on a few Qs at once with nothing but a single hyp using ISR.

3. Preferences.

4. Situation. PSG + only enemies = good times. While PSG + friendlies = /facepalm same applies to all weapons and missiles and ships and so forth.


Anyhoo I'm with guy above me. If you got aggie PSG or PSG. It's bad manners to use anything else.
“Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.” - Albert Einstein

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