[X3:AP] Capturing Xenon captials... the cost!

[Jimmy C]

So, after finishing all the plots, my next goal was to capture Xenon capitals, M7 and up. I read there'd be losses and reloads, but this is painful!
My target was a Q in Zayarth's Dominion. Even with 21 maxed marines, I kept losing below the critical number and lost the entire boarding team. I spent the whole day reloading and failing before I tried adding extra (mere elite) marines in desperation. It worked, but I face a dilemma for future captures.
While the first batch of 21 marines is cutting through the hull, it is possible to launch another pod of 5 marines at the ship immediately. But, once they get through the hull, any excess over 21 will eject from the ship and be killed!
After the initial batch of marines enter the ship, it is no longer possible to launch more marines unless some already onboard die. In which case, any new pod launches will contain exactly enough marines to fill the ship back to 21. But, to reinforce at this point, it is likely that more than 5 marines will perish during the boarding. That's what happened when I went after the second Q in the sector.
At this rate, I face a certainty of 5 or more losses on every capship boarding operation.
Is it possible to reduce that without relying the RNG? Even if I can max out every marine I have, I don't have that many. I might only manage 5 or 6 more before I lose too many maxed marines.

And I did so much reloading, I noticed a pattern. I've read that you're supposed to save on every deck, so you can reload if the outcome is unfavorable.
But what I've seen is that the outcome on each deck is always the same. The same number of people die on each deck no matter how many times I reload, no matter when I save on the deck. The only save point that seems to result in any variation at all is when the marines status is "fighting" and not "fighting (deck #)" right after they finish hull cutting. It's like the results for all casualties are rolled at that point. After I saw that, I stopped saving until the marines started hacking the core.

[Alan Phipps]

I think you are correct that one of the TC/AP patches changed the point at which deck losses are pre-ordained and made it much earlier in the operation - specifically I think to thwart the save/reload at every deck until you can guarantee a cheap win.

[Jimmy C]

So it's now like that in TC as well? I never got around to capturing any ships (beyond the exercise on the Vidar) in TC.

[Alan Phipps]

Not sure to be honest. It has been a long time since I last played X3TC now that most of the big mods are also X3AP-based.

Nothing about it in either game changelog after X3TC 2.5 which *started* the ongoing process of the devs making boarding harder.

[Araknis]

I 've said it before, so i m gonna redirect you to an older thread.
http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php? ... c&start=20
If you are not willing to take the heavy losses, you need to reload.
I pretty much covered every Xenon Capital in that thread, except the Xenon Q.
I got 1 Q to reverse engineer and for the achievement with 5 marine losses.
I reloaded 1244 times, i got it with 5 losses (16 survived) on reload no26 if i recall correctly and one more time with same losses on reload 1244.
This is where i stopped.
I 've never lost a marine but 5 is an acceptable number for something so hard to get imo.

Also in AP, you only save when your marines reach the target and start cutting the hull, this is when the outcome is calculated and you need to reload every time from there.
In TC you could save and reload in every deck.

[Jimmy C]

My problem is, I see no way of capping Xenon capitals with less than 5 losses.
Well, if I only launch 20 marines at first, followed by 5 in the next pod, I can reduce the certain deaths to 4.
Is there no better way?
It would suck if there's no way to keep maxed marines alive on Xenon captures.

[Araknis]

I honestly dont know.

I tried the wave after wave marine massacre (against my moral philosophy in the game) and found the micromanagement and the need for perfect timing to be depleting my patience in an extremely fast way.
I was drifting towards the Dark Side so fast, that Vader would get tears of joy in his eyes.

As for the way, i told you. If you have the patience, RELOAD.
As far as Is, Js and Ks they can be capped with 21 5star marines without losses.
I did it for you and posted it in the link above, so you dont have to wonder whether it is possible or you are wasting your time.
Only exception was the Q, my best cap was with 5 losses.
I m not planning to try it again.

Also a good way to get your hands on decent marines if you wanna send them in waves as fodder, is to board RRF ships.
Especially in the warzone (if you havent stopped the war), all Argon capitals carried 20 maxed marines.
You ll need to be VERY fast to pick them up as they eject into space just before you cap the ship.
But this could be a steady source of high lvl marines as well as a big hit to your rep.
From my experience ALL Commonwealth races have marines onboard their RRF ships, NOT always but most of the times.

[hisazul]

I honestly dont know.

I tried the wave after wave marine massacre (against my moral philosophy in the game) and found the micromanagement and the need for perfect timing to be depleting my patience in an extremely fast way.
I was drifting towards the Dark Side so fast, that Vader would get tears of joy in his eyes.

As for the way, i told you. If you have the patience, RELOAD.
As far as Is, Js and Ks they can be capped with 21 5star marines without losses.
I did it for you and posted it in the link above, so you dont have to wonder whether it is possible or you are wasting your time.
Only exception was the Q, my best cap was with 5 losses.
I m not planning to try it again.

Also a good way to get your hands on decent marines if you wanna send them in waves as fodder, is to board RRF ships.
Especially in the warzone (if you havent stopped the war), all Argon capitals carried 20 maxed marines.
You ll need to be VERY fast to pick them up as they eject into space just before you cap the ship.
But this could be a steady source of high lvl marines as well as a big hit to your rep.
From my experience ALL Commonwealth races have marines onboard their RRF ships, NOT always but most of the times.

Should also mention it's a much much faster way to get decent marines unlike training them and then getting their fighting rank up.

[Jimmy C]

Too late to try the warzone RRF, I ended the war already. I've scanned regular RRFs and I see they have high-end marines.
And I have to mention some odd happened when I captured the Q. The extra marine that ejected (a Yaki) turned hostile. I was still able to pick him up and return him to the ship though.

[Araknis]

Keep in mind a couple of things
The RRF ships are as nearly as hard to get as Xenon ships.
You ll need 21 5star marines and you will have to save on cutting the hull and then reload many times to get it without losses.
When you get it, you will have a few things to deal with.
20 of your marines will be in the capped ship, and 1 in space, so you need to fast jump it out to safety and pick up your man. It is better to use marines of different race than the one you are capping so you can find your marine in space.
All of the RRF marines will be in space, so you need to lure it and cap it away from stations or the marines will just fly to them and vanish.
You will need to have a 2nd empty ship close by to load the extra marine. You will be flying something that can take 20, RRF can take 20, but there are 41 in total. Unless you fly a Sirokos or use it to launch the 21.
You will have RRF escort and local police turning hostile and coming after you.
There is a VERY high chance the RRF will jump out when its shields go down.

All this make up for a great challenge imo. This is the stuff i love in this game.
You have to find the RRF, stalk it for a while, find the proper sector, the proper cap point and execute everything fast and right to achieve your goal.
You will be somewhat a predator and you will feel awesome when you get it.
Ofc afterwards its rep repair time...

[RayF]

Keep in mind a couple of things
The RRF ships are as nearly as hard to get as Xenon ships.
You ll need 21 5star marines and you will have to save on cutting the hull and then reload many times to get it without losses.
When you get it, you will have a few things to deal with.
20 of your marines will be in the capped ship, and 1 in space, so you need to fast jump it out to safety and pick up your man. It is better to use marines of different race than the one you are capping so you can find your marine in space.
All of the RRF marines will be in space, so you need to lure it and cap it away from stations or the marines will just fly to them and vanish.
You will need to have a 2nd empty ship close by to load the extra marine. You will be flying something that can take 20, RRF can take 20, but there are 41 in total. Unless you fly a Sirokos or use it to launch the 21.
You will have RRF escort and local police turning hostile and coming after you.
There is a VERY high chance the RRF will jump out when its shields go down.

All this make up for a great challenge imo. This is the stuff i love in this game.
You have to find the RRF, stalk it for a while, find the proper sector, the proper cap point and execute everything fast and right to achieve your goal.
You will be somewhat a predator and you will feel awesome when you get it.
Ofc afterwards its rep repair time...

AP is turning to be more fun than TC day by day, post by post

[Nanook]

So it's now like that in TC as well?...

No. You can still exploit the save/reload buttons in TC.

[Araknis]

No. You can still exploit the save/reload buttons in TC.

It's considered an exploit?!?!?!
I 'm shocked.

[Nanook]

Using save/reload to avoid consequences is most certainly an exploit. Shame on you if you don't play DiD.

[Araknis]

Using save/reload to avoid consequences is most certainly an exploit. Shame on you if you don't play DiD.

My world is shattered right now....
So the 1244 reloads i did to get a Q with minimal losses..... got me a special place in X - Hell?

[hisazul]

Using save/reload to avoid consequences is most certainly an exploit. Shame on you if you don't play DiD.

My world is shattered right now....
So the 1244 reloads i did to get a Q with minimal losses..... got me a special place in X - Hell?

If you ever thought about boron and japanese girls at the same time... you are already going to hell. So no need to panic.

[Araknis]

If you ever thought about boron and japanese girls at the same time... you are already going to hell. So no need to panic.

Actually it never occurred to me, since Borons don't seem to have the proper tentacles for the job.
So is there still hope for me?

[Jimmy C]

I got 21 maxed marines again, so I decided to go after a J. It wasn't any less costly than the Q. At best, I lost 10 marines in the boarding. Right now, I'm trying to see how far they can get without reinforcements.

[Araknis]

I got 21 maxed marines again, so I decided to go after a J. It wasn't any less costly than the Q. At best, I lost 10 marines in the boarding. Right now, I'm trying to see how far they can get without reinforcements.

I don't know if it's my imagination or not, but i had faster and better results with patrol Js than Xenon sector defense Js.
A good system to try both J and K is Grand Exchange.
Let the Q patrols wreck everything for a day or so, basically to get rid of the RRF ships. Then clear the system and camp the north gate for a J or K. Lure it far away so no one can bother you (Qs will keep coming in the system get out of radar range) and take your time with it.

[Jimmy C]

Up to now, I haven't seen Xenon incursions with anything larger than a Q. Maybe that will begin to change now that my fight rank has gone up.