[AP]OOS combat: ISR vs CIG, CIG vs IPG, PRG vs PAC?

[Etheron]

After capping my 2nd Hyperion, now I have three including my personal ship, the "Ethereal Hype", overtuned 250 kms via pp start. I've decided that later when I get my Player HQ I'll be making a fleet of Hypes. So I'm mulling now whwther I want to arm them with ISRs or CiGs, these will be mostly for OOS defence and combat. So three qustions:

1) So I've read other threads about how OOS combat has changed in AP and I'm still scratching my head. If I understnad well, it's still not based on Damage Per Second (DPSec) but on Damage Per Shot (DPSh). Is this correct? If it is correct, besides the fact that I don't understand why Egosoft didnt do it based on DPSsec ( it being such a simple formula so easy to calculate even ont he oldest processors and it being more alike IS combat), then ISRs > CiGs right?

2)About IPGs, the Hypes wont mount them of course but I also have a pure OTAS/Argon Fleet with Centaurs and either an Astraeus Hauler or a Cerberus ( I'll ask a separate question about that on a separate thread) and also scratching my head if it's better to mount them with CIGs or IPGs for OOS Combat. If I understood well then IPGs > CIGs, right? I want to confim this because if CIGs are better for OOS on both the Hype and the Centaurs/Cerb/Astraeus then I should start setting up a CIG factory now.

3)Which leads me to the final question. Since my OTAS/Argon fleet will have a few Zephyrus loaded with Solanos, even after the changes in AP regarding OOS combat, still PAC > PRGs, am I correct?

EDIT: Fixed typo , PRGs instead of PSGs

[ancienthighway]

I assume you meant PRG on the Solanos rather than the PSG, a capital class weapon.

TMs with M4s for OOS combat? Be prepared for heavy losses. While the shields on the Solano are equal or better than the majority of the M3s it will face, the hull is still an M4 hull. Falcon Haulers with HEPTs are a better choice for OOS fighter support. Take a look at using an M7C, such as the Tiger or it's AP equivalents rather than a hoard of Zephyrs. Even an Elephant or Ryu may work out better, especially in resupply and drone support.

As far as the Hyperion for OOS, and having a fleet of them for the role, reverse engineering and build times for the ship are very long. They won't build fast enough for your wants. You'd be better off capturing more if you want more.

ISRs and IPG both can tear up shields pretty fast, but are sadly deficient in hull damage. Either HEPTs or CIGS would be the weapon to use. In one hour a CIG forge will produce less than 1/2 a weapon, while a HEPT forge will produce around 1 1/4 weapons. I tend to mount HEPTs on my M6s, and considering they go on my Falcon Haulers, I find it hard to justify the additional stations for CIG production in mass.

These M6/fighter battle groups good only for Pirate fighter groups and complex defence. They won't stand up to a Q in a Xenon highway, and I wouldn't consider using them against a Pirate Carrack. For those you'd need a battle group centered around at least an M7 but an M2 would be better.

[DrBullwinkle]

CIG and ISR are similar enough in damage that it does not matter which you pick, damage-wise. CIG has lower rate of fire, so stronger damage per shot.

ISR has slightly stronger DPS and has a faster bullet, so greater chance of getting a hit. Plus no push effect. So ISR has slight edge, especially in-sector. ISR is also more versatile, especially on the player ship (but that is not what you asked ).

OOS, CIG does 60% of the shield damage of IPG, but 600% of the hull damage of IPG. So use CIG if you are trying to kill your targets.

So, if you are going to build a factory, then you might as well build CIGs. ISR's advantage matter most when mounted on the playership.

PAC > PSGs

Um... you must mean something else other than Phased Shockwave Generator (PSG), which is an M7-class weapon. I can't guess at what you really meant.

[Etheron]

I assume you meant PRG on the Solanos rather than the PSG, a capital class weapon.

TMs with M4s for OOS combat? Be prepared for heavy losses.

Yes, sorry my bad, I meant PRS not PSGs.

I plan to have at least 3 war fleets. One of purely, Paranid ships, one of OTAS/Argon and another one of Split. Yes I am a bit OCD, i don't like to mix race ships on a single fleet. So now I'm working on my OTAS/Argon one and on my Paranid one.

On my OTAS/Argon the Zephyrs are there to escort the 2 Austers and the Aquilo of the fleet, 2 Zephyrs per each of these so this means 6 Zephyrs, 24 Solanos. These are not meant to see or be on the heat of the battle, they will be back there as backup. The spearhead of the fleet will be a couple of M7s (likely Cerberus) and an M2 (undecided on Boreas or Titan). The Cerberus will be loaded with fully decked Ventis. Have collected so far 5 PBCs for the Cerberus, need 3 more. So, for the front guns, OOS the CiG>IPG right?

My Paranid fleet will be spearheaded by 2 Aggammenon, and at least 8 Hyperions, loaded with 2 Advanced Perseus each. I couldnt care less about Hyperion building time, I have the time. It's all about aesthethics, not efficiency. Behind them there will be a fully loaded Zeus (courtesy of Duke Pirates) with Adv. Perseuses, 4 Hades, and at least two more Hyperions with ideally 2 Medusa Prototypes each all fully loaded with Typhoons.

Then will come the Split Fleet, and maybe even an all Boron fleet. And with these fleets I plan to wipe the Teladi out of existence as punishment for them designing such ugly ships.

[DrBullwinkle]

OOS, PAC and PRG are very similar. VERY similar. PACs are cheaper.

Using multiple small ships for OOS combat will always result in losses. It is *much* better to have a small number of very strong ships ("strong" = "strong shields").

That is why M2's are the most commonly-recommended OOS ships. If you cannot afford an M2, then a single M7 is better than multiple M6's. (Or any number of TM's.)

[hisazul]

CIG and ISR are similar enough in damage that it does not matter which you pick, damage-wise. CIG has lower rate of fire, so stronger damage per shot.

ISR has slightly stronger DPS and has a faster bullet, so greater chance of getting a hit. Plus no push effect. So ISR has slight edge, especially in-sector. ISR is also more versatile, especially on the player ship (but that is not what you asked ).

OOS, CIG does 60% of the shield damage of IPG, but 600% of the hull damage of IPG. So use CIG if you are trying to kill your targets.

So, if you are going to build a factory, then you might as well build CIGs. ISR's advantage matter most when mounted on the playership.

PAC > PSGs

Um... you must mean something else other than Phased Shockwave Generator (PSG), which is an M7-class weapon. I can't guess at what you really meant.

Highlighted often overlooked part. CIG hits target with 1 projectile then target is tossed somewhere and the rest of your volley hits space. Brilliant. All that talk about efficiency makes me teeth hurt just thinking of the hot potatoe game CIG starts with smaller ships.

Mount CIG on ships that deal with large targets but lack the generators or capacity to mount ISR. Or smaller/medium ships that lack the durability or generators for fighting so you just want to throw stuff out of your way.

Also I don't even wanna hear people talk about energy efficincy. You aren't shooting walls... you dodge and you move. Simply do those things when your energy is low, it's not rocket science... well... sort of is but that's not the point.

CIG has it's place and ISR has it's place but more importantly at the end of the day it's still completely up to personal preferences. Unless we are talking about OOS combat... then it's simple math.

[ancienthighway]

He is talking OOS. Push is meaningless there. Biggest shields and biggest guns win. Speed to attack first is nice, but not always necessary. No missiles. No drones.

I just thought of something. I know with CODEA, carrier based fighters will launch, but without that, is the Carrier Software enough to launch fighters when OOS? Would they launch without it?

[blaughw]

Just to chime in, ancienthighway meant Split Panther / Panther Raider in AP. The Tiger has no fighter bays, though I love it as a playership.

[ancienthighway]

My bad. I always get the Tiger and Panther confused since they are always in my CW fleet.

[yoshette]

TL;DNR Version...

For OOS combat:
1) CIGs are better than ISRs
2) CIGs are better than IPGs
3) PACs are better than PRGs

Full Version...

Ion Shard Railguns (ISRs)

From X3wiki:
Hull Damage (dps) 3,700
Shield Damage (dps) 10,200 kJ
Range 3.33 km
Rate of Fire 230 shots/minute
Projectile Speed 498 m/s
Max Weapon Energy 5,000 MJ
Energy Cost/Second 476 MJ/sec

With this information we can calculate the damage per shot, using the simple formula:

damage per shot = dps * 60(seconds in a minute) / shots per minute

965.2 hull damage per shot
2660.9 shield damage per shot
3626.1 total damage per shot

Concussion Impulse Generators (CIGs)

From X3wiki:
Hull Damage (dps) 3,200
Shield Damage (dps) 9,800 kJ
Range 3.46 km
Rate of Fire 75 shots/minute
Projectile Speed 420 m/s
Max Weapon Energy 5,000 MJ
Energy Cost/Second 307 MJ/sec

2560.0 hull damage per shot
7840.0 shield damage per shot
10400.0 total damage per shot

Based on the maths, in OOS situations CIGs are better than ISRs, on hull damage, shield damage and total damage.

Ion Pulse Generators (IPGs)

From X3wiki:
Hull Damage (dps) 544
Shield Damage (dps) 13,000 kJ
Range 3.88 km
Rate of Fire 62 shots/minute
Projectile Speed 347 m/s
Max Weapon Energy 5,000 MJ
Energy Cost/Second 475 MJ/sec

526.5 hull damage per shot
12580.6 shield damage per shot
13107.1 total damage per shot

Based on the maths, IPGs have better total damage than CIGs, however, the IPG is all about shield damage. The IPGs would take down an enemy's shields much quicker than the CIGs, but would then take forever to actually destroy the hull, leaving the CIG as the better weapon overall in OOS situations.

Particle Accelerator Cannons (PACs)

From X3wiki:
Hull Damage (dps) 748
Shield Damage (dps) 6,000 kJ
Range 1.92 km
Rate of Fire 314 shots/minute
Projectile Speed 703 m/s
Max Weapon Energy 900 MJ
Energy Cost/Second 120 MJ/sec

142.9 hull damage per shot
1146.5 shield damage per shot
1289.4 total damage per shot

Phased Repeater Guns (PRGs)

From X3wiki:
Hull Damage (dps) 765
Shield Damage (dps) 7,200 kJ
Range 2.32 km
Rate of Fire 638 shots/minute
Projectile Speed 1,560 m/s
Max Weapon Energy 900 MJ
Energy Cost/Second 138 MJ/sec

71.9 hull damage per shot
677.1 shield damage per shot
749.0 total damage per shot

Based on the maths, PACs are almost twice as good as PRGs for hull damage, shield damage and total damage, when used in OOS situations.

[DrBullwinkle]

Those look like In-Sector values, yoshette.

OOS values are different in AP. I was looking specifically at OOS damage values when I posted above.

[ancienthighway]

How effective is damage per shot when you are talking about corvette class weapons that can't one-shot an opponent anyway? Damage per second seems to be more indicative of potency.

Since the IPG is so much more effective than the other corvette class weapons against shields, why not mount 2 or 4 IPG and the rest CIGs to get to the hull faster?

[Etheron]

TL;DNR Version...

For OOS combat:
1) CIGs are better than ISRs
2) CIGs are better than IPGs
3) PACs are better than PRGs

Full Version...

Ion Shard Railguns (ISRs)

From X3wiki:
Hull Damage (dps) 3,700
Shield Damage (dps) 10,200 kJ
Range 3.33 km
Rate of Fire 230 shots/minute
Projectile Speed 498 m/s
Max Weapon Energy 5,000 MJ
Energy Cost/Second 476 MJ/sec

With this information we can calculate the damage per shot, using the simple formula:

damage per shot = dps * 60(seconds in a minute) / shots per minute

965.2 hull damage per shot
2660.9 shield damage per shot
3626.1 total damage per shot

Concussion Impulse Generators (CIGs)

From X3wiki:
Hull Damage (dps) 3,200
Shield Damage (dps) 9,800 kJ
Range 3.46 km
Rate of Fire 75 shots/minute
Projectile Speed 420 m/s
Max Weapon Energy 5,000 MJ
Energy Cost/Second 307 MJ/sec

2560.0 hull damage per shot
7840.0 shield damage per shot
10400.0 total damage per shot

Based on the maths, in OOS situations CIGs are better than ISRs, on hull damage, shield damage and total damage.

Ion Pulse Generators (IPGs)

From X3wiki:
Hull Damage (dps) 544
Shield Damage (dps) 13,000 kJ
Range 3.88 km
Rate of Fire 62 shots/minute
Projectile Speed 347 m/s
Max Weapon Energy 5,000 MJ
Energy Cost/Second 475 MJ/sec

526.5 hull damage per shot
12580.6 shield damage per shot
13107.1 total damage per shot

Based on the maths, IPGs have better total damage than CIGs, however, the IPG is all about shield damage. The IPGs would take down an enemy's shields much quicker than the CIGs, but would then take forever to actually destroy the hull, leaving the CIG as the better weapon overall in OOS situations.

Particle Accelerator Cannons (PACs)

From X3wiki:
Hull Damage (dps) 748
Shield Damage (dps) 6,000 kJ
Range 1.92 km
Rate of Fire 314 shots/minute
Projectile Speed 703 m/s
Max Weapon Energy 900 MJ
Energy Cost/Second 120 MJ/sec

142.9 hull damage per shot
1146.5 shield damage per shot
1289.4 total damage per shot

Phased Repeater Guns (PRGs)

From X3wiki:
Hull Damage (dps) 765
Shield Damage (dps) 7,200 kJ
Range 2.32 km
Rate of Fire 638 shots/minute
Projectile Speed 1,560 m/s
Max Weapon Energy 900 MJ
Energy Cost/Second 138 MJ/sec

71.9 hull damage per shot
677.1 shield damage per shot
749.0 total damage per shot

Based on the maths, PACs are almost twice as good as PRGs for hull damage, shield damage and total damage, when used in OOS situations.

Thank you so much Yoshette for the detailed info, I really appreciate you taking the timeto post.

But yeah, just wanted to double check with Yoshette and the rest of X3AP experts if the above values are indeed applicable to AP's OOS calculation as opposed to TC OOS calculations?