Nemisis & Hydra-Best OOS M6s (proof!!)

twilight_echoes · Post by **twilight_echoes** » Thu, 25. Mar 04, 13:14

***Disclaimer***
This post contains, some simple maths and speculation about how AI combat works, so if ive made any errors please feel free to pick up on them.

I believe that the Nemisis is the best OOS defence class M6 in the game for Khaak defence, and intend to try and prove it!!!

First Up
When a ship engages in OOS combat only its shields and weaponery are taken into account when working out which ship will be victories. This determines the outcome of any combat. On paper the only real loser here is the dragon, because its lack of shielding can sometimes lead to its destruction especially fighting a big cluster.

Assuming your M6 can survive its combat, the only consideration is how fast it actually wipes out hostiles. Logically this would be the ratio of weapon strengths (22 Nemisis, 30 Centaur etc)

Second Up

Whilst speed in no way determines the results of OOS combat it does affect how fast your M6 will reach a cluster, and where in the sector combat takes place. Khaak clusters tend to spawn at the edges of the sector grids, and a faster ship is thus able to engage in combat further away from the main trading area, i.e. away from your factories and frieghters. Here the Nemisis is a real winner.

Third Up

When a cluster is disturbed and fighters spread out - the AI decides which ship your M6 engages first. The M6 must then plot an intercept to engage AI combat. If the selected hostile is travelling AWAY from the M6, the time taken will be (m6 speed - hostile speed)/starting distance.

Given that the Osprey is actually slower than many spawned Khaak scouts, it may actually need to WAIT until the hostile engages a freighter or factory before it can actually catch up!!!

Usually a Cluster spreads out fairly randomly with multiple targets. In these circumstances the Nemisis vastly outperforms the Centaur in its ability to engage hostiles.

The kill time per hostile is far less important than the intercept times because it takes much longer to intercept than to actually complete combat.

In conclusion - provided your M6 can survive a khaak cluster, over time the Nemisis is the best OOS platform because it will at some point need to engage a dispersed Khaak cluster.

My ingame experience of OOS defence with 700+ freighters and 363 fabs bears this out, and I deploy a mix of Centaurs and Nemisis's to keep trade routes safe.

Update - added some time after original post

Krytens dome some fantastic ingame tests looking at how each M6 performs intercepting an undisturbed cluster. His results are found on page 3. Each M6 was tested 10 times, and combat and intercept took place in SETA. Suddenly the Hydra doesnt look like such a lemming!!!

He's also conducted tests on disturbed clusters and multiple hostiles. His conclusions to these on P6.

Andyf · Post by **Andyf** » Thu, 25. Mar 04, 13:22

Havent got to the stage where i can afford M6s for sector defence, but yeah have always wondered why people use centaurs and not nemesis'

SteveMill · Post by **SteveMill** » Thu, 25. Mar 04, 13:29

Andyf wrote:Havent got to the stage where i can afford M6s for sector defence, but yeah have always wondered why people use centaurs and not nemesis'

Because, with all due respect to the OP's calcs, Corvettes with less shields end up toasted sooner or later. I've lost Dragon's and Nemesises in OOS defence but never a Centaur. Okay, they're slower but I've never had one so much as scratched. They can also carry a jumpdrive and a decent amount of energy and so can be part of a rapid deployment force. The Neem hasn't the cargo space. I use Dragon's only in relatively safe sectors now and jump them in as a tactical reserve.

Spoonburger · Post by **Spoonburger** » Thu, 25. Mar 04, 13:43

Strange argument there, the nem and centaur have the same shield strength...

twilight_echoes · Post by **twilight_echoes** » Thu, 25. Mar 04, 13:45

the most important part is the intercept times & dispersed clusters, not comparative shield strength.

SunFire · Post by **SunFire** » Thu, 25. Mar 04, 13:58

What about the Hydra it only has one less turret, and could even be faster im not a hydra expert so i cant say.

Nemesis and Hydra both only have 1 forward gun.

3iff · Post by **3iff** » Thu, 25. Mar 04, 14:12

I tend to use the Nemesis (3 in the last game I played) although it just seemed to me to be the better ship.

I was unimpressed with its killing ability even with 3 Ghepts, but then I realised that I hadn't set the turrets to do anything...

...once I'd fixed that, it was seeing off all pirate ships that visited the sector.

twilight_echoes · Post by **twilight_echoes** » Thu, 25. Mar 04, 14:14

Re the Hydra - sort of but no.

OOS relies on the weapon power figure which is 30k - centaur, 22k nemisis and 15k Hydra. (max specs)

the position of the gun turrets etc have no effect for OOS combat, only the weapon figure.

The hydra loses out for more complex reasons (which i totally neglected to think of in the first post because well....Hydras are hopeless)

Damage done = (Weapon Cap - Shield Gen).
In game it looks like the AI plays this out on a turn by turn basis with a percentage chance to hit, then a certain level of damage being done, and if shields are zero this gets inflicted on the hull.

The problem the Hydra has is that is weapon cap appears to be rather too close to the shield regen capacity of a cluster.

You're very wise to mention the Hydra - i had in all honesty neglected to mention it as a viable alternative.

SteveMill · Post by **SteveMill** » Thu, 25. Mar 04, 14:44

Spoonburger wrote:Strange argument there, the nem and centaur have the same shield strength...

Have they? Oops. Perhaps i should have put more shields on it!

CHAZZ · Post by **CHAZZ** » Thu, 25. Mar 04, 16:06

It's easy for you to talk about "mixing Centaurs and nemesisses as sector defence" when all i have is ONE Centaur. After upgrading to V1.3, i find that his(centaur) ability to jump around as needed is invaluable. I dont care that much about 0.005% or whatever chance to kill a khaak ship in OOS 1.35 seconds faster than some other M6. What i care is: go there, fix the trouble, get your ass back here ASAP to cover me.
No offense, but consider to take a look at the dilemma from an....frog perspective too!
Thx for the info tho, i always appreciate tidbits of info from any seasoned X2 player.Helps you live longer....Your monitor too!!

C.

Andyf · Post by **Andyf** » Thu, 25. Mar 04, 16:12

Yeah i think thatll be my next buy: a second M6 (another centaur or maybe a nemesis, and use the nemesis myself) and set the centaur up with a jumpdrive as a defense ship to jump around to where there is trouble. certainly cheaper than having one in each sector. good idea. cheers.

JackScratch · Post by **JackScratch** » Thu, 25. Mar 04, 16:23

I've never had a problem leaving my Dragon on Sector watch. The only real threat to it in a cluster is the M3 at the center and it always kills that first. And of course with the dragon's speed it tends to kill the clusters before they even realize they arrived yet.

But I don't leave it on fulltime watch. It's more fun to drive it. My Centaur defender has never failed once to intercept a cluster before it dispersed. There is a pretty good reason for this. Unbroken clusters move slower than a Nova. Broken ones tend to move in formation at the speed of the M3 until finding multiple targets to annoy. The Centaur can always catch it before it gets near the factories.

Doesn't mean I won't get a Nemesis at some point. I kind of like the idea of my capitol ships all being distinctive, and there's nothing really wrong with the Nem. I've little doubt it can handle OOS duties, though I worry a little it's slight lack of guns might mean some slip past it and it needs to chase them around.

Now if I could only rationalize getting a hydra at some point to complete my collection....

Andyf · Post by **Andyf** » Thu, 25. Mar 04, 16:25

You forgot the osprey

JackScratch · Post by **JackScratch** » Thu, 25. Mar 04, 16:26

You make that sound accidental.

Andyf · Post by **Andyf** » Thu, 25. Mar 04, 16:29

I think they rock. kinda like a poormans minidestroyer. as long as you dont think of them as corvettes.
I try to like the Hydra, but no. they suck

Paris_Hilton · Post by **Paris_Hilton** » Thu, 25. Mar 04, 16:39

I think you got the points here. ATM, I only have 6 Centaur and 1 Nemesis now (besides Dragon and Osprey as my personal ship) and they never fail their duty guarding the sectors they are assigned to but after reading this post I'll try to buy more Nemesis.

BTW, I have some questions. How if the Nemesis is equiped with PSG? Will it become more effective? Will friendly fire occur?

Moff_Ben1 · Post by **Moff_Ben1** » Thu, 25. Mar 04, 16:49

No, PSG's in OOS combat dont seem to add friendly ships into the mix so as long as you dont go into that sector it should be fine

twilight_echoes · Post by **twilight_echoes** » Thu, 25. Mar 04, 16:52

OOS PSG doesnt cause friendly fire incidents, but PSG configuration OOS nemisis is weaker than HEPT on the weapon stats. (i think just on B PSG vs BHEPT). OOS the weapon "figure" is the only thing that matters.

CHAZZ · Post by **CHAZZ** » Thu, 25. Mar 04, 16:56

Twilight you are saying that only 'so-and-so-much-tons-of-firepower' counts in OOS, right?
Isnt that a bit ...dissapointing?

I see why most tycoons have different types of M6's as sector watchsogs and diferent ones as their personal ride....

Andyf · Post by **Andyf** » Thu, 25. Mar 04, 17:00

wait is there an actual figure for OOS firepower? where?

egosoft.com

egosoft.com

Nemisis & Hydra-Best OOS M6s (proof!!)

Nemisis & Hydra-Best OOS M6s (proof!!)