I thought I could figure it out on my own but ended up using a complex calculator to design my first complex. I wanted a zero input/closed loop complex and it's actually working...but I don't have an "End Product". I have a surplus of Energy Cells, Crystals and Silicon Wafers that I have NO IDEA WHAT TO DO WITH. I can't figure out how to sell them.
If I pull up "adjust station parameters", I see all of the products that I'm manufacturing, three of them I want to sell but two of them create exactly as much as my complex consumes. So I want to sell EC's, Crystals and Silicon Wafers but I don't want to sell Argnu Beef or Meatsteak Cahoonas.
Do I set "Intermediate product trading" to <<< sell >>> and set the products I don't want to sell to the max price in "Resource buying price limit" and then set the products I actually want to sell at a competitive price? How does it work if you set "Intermediate product trading" to <<< buy & sell >>>? I don't see how you could assign the right prices since there's only one price setting for each product.
Aside from that, the complex was set to <<< buy >>> and not knowing what the hell was going on, I added a couple 100k twice because there wasn't any cash on the complex. Now I have it set to <<< sell >>> and have adjusted the prices like I mentioned above. Is this going to work or did I just screw up again? Thanks for any help.
X3-TC: first complex ever, questions
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I've recently started playing with complexes aswell. I'm actually in the middle of setting up my fifth one.
I've found CAGs to be the best way of selling intermediate products. You can set them to only trade certain products and to only take those products from the complex down to a specific percentage (to stop them depleting your complex of needed items).
Could you possibly provide the link for your complex from the complex calculator, assuming it's an online one?
I've found CAGs to be the best way of selling intermediate products. You can set them to only trade certain products and to only take those products from the complex down to a specific percentage (to stop them depleting your complex of needed items).
Could you possibly provide the link for your complex from the complex calculator, assuming it's an online one?
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ancienthighway
- Posts: 1663
- Joined: Tue, 24. Apr 07, 05:25
Go to the Command Console for the complex, select a station command, Administration, and Complex Settings. This screen allows you to move intermediate items to end items, and vice verse. Silicon, as a resource ware, cannot be changed to intermediate or end product.
I recommend starting by selling just energy cells. Once those are being sold, you may find the surplus of crystals remaining steady or even decreasing. As crystals are consumed, silicon will start to be used. Set the energy cells to end product, price at 15 cr (average-1), and allow other races to trade at the station. A high enough level CAG will sell the energy for best price equal to or over what you have set. You can use either method singly or both together.
After things have been going awhile, you'll be able to determine if you have surplus crystals to sell. If so, set it up as an end product, set the price to average-1, and the NPCs will come. Again a CAG can be used also.
I recommend starting by selling just energy cells. Once those are being sold, you may find the surplus of crystals remaining steady or even decreasing. As crystals are consumed, silicon will start to be used. Set the energy cells to end product, price at 15 cr (average-1), and allow other races to trade at the station. A high enough level CAG will sell the energy for best price equal to or over what you have set. You can use either method singly or both together.
After things have been going awhile, you'll be able to determine if you have surplus crystals to sell. If so, set it up as an end product, set the price to average-1, and the NPCs will come. Again a CAG can be used also.
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Bill Huntington
- Posts: 2493
- Joined: Mon, 2. Feb 09, 17:34
Surplus? Yes!
Having a surplus in your own complex is a good thing. It's nice to have a place where you can drop in with your own ship, refuel and continue. If you reach the maximum allowed of a product, that's another matter.
I've noticed that any time I've allowed the sale of Intermediate Products, it's ended up biting me by leaving my own complex short of what it needs. If you watch closely, that doesn't have to happen. But there are many other things to watch for in AP and TC. When you see the complex flashing yellow, it's already too late.
I've noticed that any time I've allowed the sale of Intermediate Products, it's ended up biting me by leaving my own complex short of what it needs. If you watch closely, that doesn't have to happen. But there are many other things to watch for in AP and TC. When you see the complex flashing yellow, it's already too late.
Bill in S.F., enjoying the game
I've always been a fan of setting intermediates to maximum price, and buy/sell. Since CAGs look for the best deals available, they'll hunt them down in areas that might not be directly adjacent to my complex. But if an NPC is willing to pay max price for something I'm producing, I'm perfectly willing to sell it to them. The profit made from the selling, and the reduced cost of what the CAG's buy, generally compensates for anything lost in end product profits.
That said, Energy Cells aren't the greatest money makers around. I much prefer to only use them amongst my forces, and sell other things, like Cahoona's or BoFu as their own complexes, instead of selling off parts from the manufacturing process for other things. Not to mention having them as separate complexes means I can bolster other stations if I run short of something.
That said, Energy Cells aren't the greatest money makers around. I much prefer to only use them amongst my forces, and sell other things, like Cahoona's or BoFu as their own complexes, instead of selling off parts from the manufacturing process for other things. Not to mention having them as separate complexes means I can bolster other stations if I run short of something.
A Pirate's Revenge Completed Now in PDF by _Zap_
APR Book 2: Best Served Cold Updated 8/5/2016
The Tale of Ea't s'Quid Completed
Dovie'andi se tovya sagain
APR Book 2: Best Served Cold Updated 8/5/2016
The Tale of Ea't s'Quid Completed
Dovie'andi se tovya sagain
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ancienthighway
- Posts: 1663
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While I agree with everything you've said, this first complex needs to generate funds to build more. As addition complexes are built, the e-cells should be used to support them rather than be sold.Triaxx2 wrote:...
That said, Energy Cells aren't the greatest money makers around. I much prefer to only use them amongst my forces, and sell other things, like Cahoona's or BoFu as their own complexes, instead of selling off parts from the manufacturing process for other things. Not to mention having them as separate complexes means I can bolster other stations if I run short of something.
When building in the future, the surrounding sectors need to be evaluated for surpluses and shortages. New complexes should take advantage of the NPC stations. It doesn't matter if the complex if built to support the NPC economy or to make wares for your own use.
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Monkeyfister
- Posts: 555
- Joined: Thu, 26. Sep 13, 22:20
Another option CLS 2 External Commodity Logistics:
Buy/"borrow" a TS
Set it up as you like, but be sure to put Navigational Command Software on it.
Fly to Herron's Nebulae Trading Staion, buy CLS 2 (They're sorta the CLS Pilot Union Local Chapter for the Universe)
While docked there, open Command Console
Set Home Base to your SPP
Then go to Trade > Start External Commodity Logistics
This hires you a pretty good CLS Pilot. Fire him if he's an Apprentice, and try to get a Courier or Logistician. Check his rank and settings by going to Trader Settings
Click on Global Account to toggle it to station account
Go back to main CLS menu
> Waypoints > Add Waypoints > Add Station > YOUR SPP > Load > Energy > Energy Cells > Maximum Cargo Space
Now go back to Main CLS Window click > Generate Waypoints >Select your SPP > enter 1 or 2 for a range from your SPP > Sell > Energy > Sell Price 17 > Max Cargospace
A nice long list will appear. You can edit it, or not.
Click back to Main CLS Menu, Click Start External Commodity Logistics Command, and it will take off to your SPP to load up, then will into Standby, while it looks for a buyer on your waypoints list at 17, fly there, go back to SPP to fill up, and on. You'll never need to deal with it again if you did manage to secure a Logistician. Otherwise, it'll level up, and you can add MORE waypoints.
If you want your CLS pilot to Autojump you'll need to tell it to do that and set # of jumps to refuel, and your very first Waypoint should be >Add Station > YOUR SPP > refuel jump energy > Add Station > YOUR SPP > Load Energy Cells > Maximum Cargospace.
That tops up your Jump Juice BEFORE your Salable Energy Cells.
Buy/"borrow" a TS
Set it up as you like, but be sure to put Navigational Command Software on it.
Fly to Herron's Nebulae Trading Staion, buy CLS 2 (They're sorta the CLS Pilot Union Local Chapter for the Universe)
While docked there, open Command Console
Set Home Base to your SPP
Then go to Trade > Start External Commodity Logistics
This hires you a pretty good CLS Pilot. Fire him if he's an Apprentice, and try to get a Courier or Logistician. Check his rank and settings by going to Trader Settings
Click on Global Account to toggle it to station account
Go back to main CLS menu
> Waypoints > Add Waypoints > Add Station > YOUR SPP > Load > Energy > Energy Cells > Maximum Cargo Space
Now go back to Main CLS Window click > Generate Waypoints >Select your SPP > enter 1 or 2 for a range from your SPP > Sell > Energy > Sell Price 17 > Max Cargospace
A nice long list will appear. You can edit it, or not.
Click back to Main CLS Menu, Click Start External Commodity Logistics Command, and it will take off to your SPP to load up, then will into Standby, while it looks for a buyer on your waypoints list at 17, fly there, go back to SPP to fill up, and on. You'll never need to deal with it again if you did manage to secure a Logistician. Otherwise, it'll level up, and you can add MORE waypoints.
If you want your CLS pilot to Autojump you'll need to tell it to do that and set # of jumps to refuel, and your very first Waypoint should be >Add Station > YOUR SPP > refuel jump energy > Add Station > YOUR SPP > Load Energy Cells > Maximum Cargospace.
That tops up your Jump Juice BEFORE your Salable Energy Cells.
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RainerPrem
- Posts: 3587
- Joined: Wed, 18. Jan 06, 07:39
Hi,
In TC, complexes are basically only good for creating the wares for the Hub plot and refueling my ships.
Entering big ships to sell and afterwards rebuilding reputation gives millionssss of creditssss quickly.
just my 0.02Credits
Rainer
I can't underwrite this. I can make more money with transporting a handful of soldiers for station a to station b than a complex in a hour or more. Considering the basic cost for stations and traders most complexes never pay back their cost.ancienthighway wrote:
While I agree with everything you've said, this first complex needs to generate funds to build more. As addition complexes are built, the e-cells should be used to support them rather than be sold.
In TC, complexes are basically only good for creating the wares for the Hub plot and refueling my ships.
Entering big ships to sell and afterwards rebuilding reputation gives millionssss of creditssss quickly.
just my 0.02Credits
Rainer
Ecells are not too good choice imo unless you want to feed certain NPC fabs with it (but not for profits).
Crystals are much better, both for profits and to start up other complexes, as the price is better, and it can be transported much more effectively (just calculate how many ecells you can produce with a freighter load of crystals).
Also it sells in nice numbers (all SPPs buy it as secondary, plus some weapon fabs also use it).
I use ecells for my fleet almost exclusively, but for that a small surplus is enough.
@RainerPrem: Why wouldn't complexes pay back their own price?
Those are the best places to spend money, as they will just generate more without additional time/money spent on them.
If you have a plex that cost 500m, and brings in 10m per hour, above that 50 game hours it will print money for you - while you can still board/sell ships, the only difference will be that with the complex you will be in 10m+ every hour.
Crystals are much better, both for profits and to start up other complexes, as the price is better, and it can be transported much more effectively (just calculate how many ecells you can produce with a freighter load of crystals).
Also it sells in nice numbers (all SPPs buy it as secondary, plus some weapon fabs also use it).
I use ecells for my fleet almost exclusively, but for that a small surplus is enough.
@RainerPrem: Why wouldn't complexes pay back their own price?
Those are the best places to spend money, as they will just generate more without additional time/money spent on them.
If you have a plex that cost 500m, and brings in 10m per hour, above that 50 game hours it will print money for you - while you can still board/sell ships, the only difference will be that with the complex you will be in 10m+ every hour.
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ancienthighway
- Posts: 1663
- Joined: Tue, 24. Apr 07, 05:25
Up to a point maybe, but consumption of crystals as a secondary resource at NPC stations is slow, especially when compared to energy, food, and minerals. Transport vs transport, crystals are the way to go, but once you take into account that the station you just sold at won't present you with a profitable price for a while, energy, with it's universal use, pull in some decent profits.Crystals are much better...
Given the constraints of the complex already built, I stand by selling energy cells first, then as surpluses in crystals are identified to sell them. It doesn't take that long to use profits to add another bio/food/crystal sequence to the existing complex, providing more crystals for sell.
It sells nice. In this game i have a 12x crystal plex, that only sells above avg, and it sells everything that is left (stock oscillates between 4-20k). It never got even near full.
I also start all my complexes from this plex. Still i'd assume a 6x plex would be out of stock mostly. Iirc an M SPP uses 100/hour or more, and there are quite a few of them.
Initially i wanted to use it as a power plex for 3-5 other plexes, but then it turned such a nice profit that i kept it and built closed loops from the money instead
I also start all my complexes from this plex. Still i'd assume a 6x plex would be out of stock mostly. Iirc an M SPP uses 100/hour or more, and there are quite a few of them.
Initially i wanted to use it as a power plex for 3-5 other plexes, but then it turned such a nice profit that i kept it and built closed loops from the money instead
There are so many interlocking and overlapping systems in this game that you really need to develop a feel for what will sell where. There are a few "guaranteed" locations where a particular commodity will always find a buyer, but in most cases, you need to see what's perpetually in short supply before deciding what to provide with a station of your own.
If the local economy is stuck in low gear due to a lack of E-cells, then adding silicone or ore isn't going to help, and they won't sell all that well. If there's a producer of E-cells, and the problem is with distribution, then a Sector or Local Trader might be far more profitable and beneficial. A LT boosting the economy in the region can also make your stations more profitable by allowing the NPC stations to run, thereby increasing their usage of your resource or intermediate product.
Either you can add a small end product factory to your complex, or else use CLS or CAG traders to sell the intermediate products. The amount of profit is purely dependent on location, competition, and the state of the local economy in general.
I rarely build complete complexes. In most cases, I prefer to supplement and work WITH the local economy, allowing my traders to get the best deals they can regardless of whether it's my station or an AI one, and kick the overall economy into high gear, increasing demand for EVERYTHING. The stations themselves may make mediocre profits, but they boost my trader profits through the roof.
If the local economy is stuck in low gear due to a lack of E-cells, then adding silicone or ore isn't going to help, and they won't sell all that well. If there's a producer of E-cells, and the problem is with distribution, then a Sector or Local Trader might be far more profitable and beneficial. A LT boosting the economy in the region can also make your stations more profitable by allowing the NPC stations to run, thereby increasing their usage of your resource or intermediate product.
Either you can add a small end product factory to your complex, or else use CLS or CAG traders to sell the intermediate products. The amount of profit is purely dependent on location, competition, and the state of the local economy in general.
I rarely build complete complexes. In most cases, I prefer to supplement and work WITH the local economy, allowing my traders to get the best deals they can regardless of whether it's my station or an AI one, and kick the overall economy into high gear, increasing demand for EVERYTHING. The stations themselves may make mediocre profits, but they boost my trader profits through the roof.
Even if I understand that a beginner could be happy to construct his first complex as self-sufficient and forget about it, it is not the best choice in early game. You have to invest about 20 - 30 mio, and the ROI is slow.
If you go for a faster ROI, then go for ressources the AI needs a lot. Go look for a sector where there are 3 - 5 food producers (e.g. Sun Oil, Rastar) but no producer of primary ressources (Sunflowers, Chelt Meat). Your first fab could be such a ressource-production - fast ROI guaranteed.
Another approach for fast ROI: Build fabs for delivering secondars ressources to the AI, as Delexian Weed for Cahoona production.
Such fabs will "bring your bucks back" much faster than a large energy-production.
In later game, you can still go for the self-sufficient mega-plexes to minimize the micromanagement of your economy.
And as a side-effect: delivering those products the AI urgently needs will help to 'save' the AI economy in some regions. GOD does hardly ever 'kill' AI-stations that art busy on mid- and long-term.
If you go for a faster ROI, then go for ressources the AI needs a lot. Go look for a sector where there are 3 - 5 food producers (e.g. Sun Oil, Rastar) but no producer of primary ressources (Sunflowers, Chelt Meat). Your first fab could be such a ressource-production - fast ROI guaranteed.
Another approach for fast ROI: Build fabs for delivering secondars ressources to the AI, as Delexian Weed for Cahoona production.
Such fabs will "bring your bucks back" much faster than a large energy-production.
In later game, you can still go for the self-sufficient mega-plexes to minimize the micromanagement of your economy.
And as a side-effect: delivering those products the AI urgently needs will help to 'save' the AI economy in some regions. GOD does hardly ever 'kill' AI-stations that art busy on mid- and long-term.
My complexes are always HUB-oriented, from the start. On that basis I always has plenty of 'always needed' stuff to sell. This also keeps your UT fleet happy.
However: even if it's good to work >with< the local economy, actually you are the one who can modify the local economy. Just pick up 'build' missions (except ones which would put some competition to your products). This will also keep your UT fleet happy...
Ps.: as for the original question - what I always do is:
- attach some CAGs to that complex: they will make it sure that no shortage blocks the production
- some CLS pilots will keep my other stations stocked (closed loops are to feed other factories stocked, so these ones are focused on stocking as needed on target )
However: even if it's good to work >with< the local economy, actually you are the one who can modify the local economy. Just pick up 'build' missions (except ones which would put some competition to your products). This will also keep your UT fleet happy...
Ps.: as for the original question - what I always do is:
- attach some CAGs to that complex: they will make it sure that no shortage blocks the production
- some CLS pilots will keep my other stations stocked (closed loops are to feed other factories stocked, so these ones are focused on stocking as needed on target )
I believe the average works out to 138 energy cells per crystal. So it's far more efficient to move those than energy for most purposes.
However, I prefer to build two types of complex, depending on end product consumption. Internal, which means I'm consuming the product, and external, which means it's for someone else to use.
Internal is things like Energy cells, Flails and Hammers, and other pieces of armament for Vanilla and modded requirements. (Lots of Microchips for CODEA repair for example.)
External are also energy cells, crystals, Wheat, both stages of food. And more importantly, Space Fuel and Space Weed. I have two pair of complexes at either gate of 'Avarice' (between Montalaar and New Income.) that way no matter where the NPC's are coming from, there's only a short distance for them to go to get to a nearby station and my CLS ships only have a short distance to fly to resupply the stations. They're generally self-sufficient, except for crystals to run them.
Ultra high profit stations though, such as 1Mj shields and microchips are far easier to manage early on.
On the topic of cash, you're right, it's much more cost effective stealing ships. However, stations and complexes are much better maintenance cash, for paying for CAG's and CLS ships, which have a small, but persistent background cost.
However, I prefer to build two types of complex, depending on end product consumption. Internal, which means I'm consuming the product, and external, which means it's for someone else to use.
Internal is things like Energy cells, Flails and Hammers, and other pieces of armament for Vanilla and modded requirements. (Lots of Microchips for CODEA repair for example.)
External are also energy cells, crystals, Wheat, both stages of food. And more importantly, Space Fuel and Space Weed. I have two pair of complexes at either gate of 'Avarice' (between Montalaar and New Income.) that way no matter where the NPC's are coming from, there's only a short distance for them to go to get to a nearby station and my CLS ships only have a short distance to fly to resupply the stations. They're generally self-sufficient, except for crystals to run them.
Ultra high profit stations though, such as 1Mj shields and microchips are far easier to manage early on.
On the topic of cash, you're right, it's much more cost effective stealing ships. However, stations and complexes are much better maintenance cash, for paying for CAG's and CLS ships, which have a small, but persistent background cost.
A Pirate's Revenge Completed Now in PDF by _Zap_
APR Book 2: Best Served Cold Updated 8/5/2016
The Tale of Ea't s'Quid Completed
Dovie'andi se tovya sagain
APR Book 2: Best Served Cold Updated 8/5/2016
The Tale of Ea't s'Quid Completed
Dovie'andi se tovya sagain
This is vanilla X3 TC, so most of what you guys are talking about isn't making any sense to me. I haven't paid much attention to the complex since it started running without my help but where can I check how it is actually doing? Like how much money it has made yet. I can see that it constantly sits at the 75,000 mark for when to transfer funds to my account but haven't seen where I can see what it actually makes.
I've been trying to put satellites in every sector and it is taking a long time but my complex has never been blinking yellow after the initial startup.
I've been trying to put satellites in every sector and it is taking a long time but my complex has never been blinking yellow after the initial startup.
The CAG (Commercial Agent) and CLS (Commodity Logistics Software Mk1 and Mk2) are part of X3TC Bonuspack and as such "vanilla".
If you had a CAG serving the Complex and a restriction that only that ship can interact with the Complex (so NPC, UT, CAG from other stations) not allowed, then the CAG's statistics could show "profitsss".
If you did not have automatic money transfer to your account, then the status of station's account would reveal the profitsss.
What to do with those unnecessary credits?
I presume that stealing big ships is better credits than stealing small ships. Have we forgotten, what happened to Julian Gardna and Bret Serra, when they attempted to steal a mere fighter? Stealing big ships is supposedly team-work. Team of pods and ordnance. Acquiring the latter has some relation to Complexes.
What a thought. A Complex that would produce billions of credits without selling a single unit of any ware. Ever. Well, not the Complex alone, but with a good pilot.
Not the typical "first complex" though.
If you had a CAG serving the Complex and a restriction that only that ship can interact with the Complex (so NPC, UT, CAG from other stations) not allowed, then the CAG's statistics could show "profitsss".
If you did not have automatic money transfer to your account, then the status of station's account would reveal the profitsss.
There is only one of you, but there can be a Complex in every sector in addition to one of you. The more, the merrier?RainerPrem wrote:I can make more money with transporting a handful of soldiers for station a to station b than a complex in a hour or more.
If one can get everything "for free", why gather credits at all?Triaxx2 wrote:On the topic of cash, you're right, it's much more cost effective stealing ships.
What to do with those unnecessary credits?
I presume that stealing big ships is better credits than stealing small ships. Have we forgotten, what happened to Julian Gardna and Bret Serra, when they attempted to steal a mere fighter? Stealing big ships is supposedly team-work. Team of pods and ordnance. Acquiring the latter has some relation to Complexes.
What a thought. A Complex that would produce billions of credits without selling a single unit of any ware. Ever. Well, not the Complex alone, but with a good pilot.
Not the typical "first complex" though.
Goner Pancake Protector X
Insanity included at no extra charge.
There is no Box. I am the sand.
Insanity included at no extra charge.
There is no Box. I am the sand.
jlehtone wrote:The CAG (Commercial Agent) and CLS (Commodity Logistics Software Mk1 and Mk2) are part of X3TC Bonuspack and as such "vanilla".
Where would I get the bonus pack? If I click on the update button, it says I'm at the latest version. Also, if I did get this bonus pack, is it going to force me to start all over? Thanks!
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MarvinTheMartian
- Posts: 1561
- Joined: Wed, 5. May 04, 19:52
Click the "Home" link at the top (or bottom) left of this page, click "Downloads" from the navigation menu on the left, select your game and then "Bonus Material"wolfee wrote:Where would I get the bonus pack?
You'll need your game registered on the forum for that to work I think so do that or you can probably get it from Steam, it's showing as DLC in Steam for me but I bought the super-box disk version so I'm not sure how you'd go about that otherwise.
Where's the kaboom? There was supposed to be an earth-shattering kaboom!
X3AP 3.1 Printable Universe Sector Map
X3AP 3.1 Printable Universe Sector Map