[X3:AP] Could use some help fine-tuning CAG

[Jimmy C]

In the past, I only adjusted the trade blacklist / whitelists. But now, I find I need to know how to fiddle with the product buy / sell levels.
I am currently using a CAG to buy Boarding Pods at my Dock. The thing is, the CAG is going out to buy even one single pod at a time. I would like to adjust the buy levels so that he only goes shopping when the destination has 8. No need to go any earlier.
I also have future plans to create a two-dock market to maximize trading profits. One dock buys and the other one sells. The thing is, the buy dock will have no source of income on its own. So I plan to have a CAG at the sell dock that will buy from the buy dock, giving it a stream of income. I would to know how to adjust the CAG buy/sell levels to keep goods moving between the docks.
Can anyone help me with these?

[ancienthighway]

CAG buy and sell trades are based on the level of stocks at the home base, although there's a option to sell if the cargo hold of the CAG can be filled to a set level. All those triggers will do those is send the CAG out to purchase at the best price.

You are wanting the trader to wait until the NPC station has maxed out it's ware on a ware that has a fixed price, no matter how many are in stock, Boarding Pods at Military Outposts and Bases. CAGs will see all stations the same whether there is 1 or 8 boarding pods.

You could use CLS2 to buy the boarding pods and fiddle with the cargo percentages until you find the setting that works.

Probably the best method though is to set a ship at the Outpost/Base to buy them (CLS2) when they are available. An M4 with jumpdrive could buy up to 8 or whatever number works best for you, then jump to your dock to transfer the pods to the dock or a ship docked there. Use a TP and you can buy and train marines that fit your needs.

[Jimmy C]

I did use the CLS2 method to buy pods in my last game, but I thought I'd give the flexibility of CAG a try this time. Looks like I might as well switch to a level 1 CLS to buy from the MO next door for now. I'll only be using two pods at a time until M7s start appearing in missions anyway. And I'm not getting as many missions as I would like, either.

[Sinxar]

To make the credits flow, it would be easier to just make it transfer from the sell station to the buy station. Then have the buy station transfer funds to your wallet.

[Jimmy C]

The thing is, I need goods flowing from the buy dock to the sell dock too. I've thought about and rejected CLS as inefficient in this case. I'd need either too many transports, or they'd be sitting around waiting for some goods to complete their order while the other goods are piling up.
CAG, if it can work, should keep the goods flowing automatically as long as there is something to move.

[MarvinTheMartian]

The thing is, I need goods flowing from the buy dock to the sell dock too. I've thought about and rejected CLS as inefficient in this case. I'd need either too many transports, or they'd be sitting around waiting for some goods to complete their order while the other goods are piling up.
CAG, if it can work, should keep the goods flowing automatically as long as there is something to move.

CLS1 is very efficient at the player station to player station part of the equation. I'll chip in with my experience with CAG when I finish work if that hasn't already been answered

[Jimmy C]

Is that so? I imagined that CLS would wait for one or two products out of an order of a half dozen products. It won't?
If I used one CLS for every product or two, I'd end up with too many transports. That's the part I think is inefficient.

[MarvinTheMartian]

Is that so? I imagined that CLS would wait for one or two products out of an order of a half dozen products. It won't?
If I used one CLS for every product or two, I'd end up with too many transports. That's the part I think is inefficient.

CLS1 will transport multiple types of ware at the same time and you can also configure the supply conditions with extra options to ensure the ship isn't flying around with just 3 units in its cargo bay (unless that's what you want).

I use CAG at the hub to buy many different wares and CLS1 pilot to deliver ship building resources to the HQ, it only takes 1 CLS1 ship to transport all the wares I need so long as consumption doesn't exceed its ability to transport the stuff fast enough.

CLS1 can also deliver to other ships but as there's no ware limit it will keep going until the target is full.

One last thing, a CLS1 ship can have multiple suppliers and multiple consumers meaning the 1 ship can service a lot of different functions! more automated than CLS2 but no less powerful

[ancienthighway]

Of course the capabilities of CLS1 that Marvin mentions aren't fully realized until the pilot has gained a number of levels of experience. Don't be fooled by the 1 supplier/ware, 3 destinations that the apprentice has.

CAG, CLS1 and CLS2 have very different mechanics when it comes to moving wares. Each has it's place in a trading empire. Tim has put together some fantastic posts on using CLS2, but until recently, he's pretty much ignored CAGs and CLS1 with operating player stations/complexes. What he does with NPC stations can be adapted to player owned, but CAG and CLS1 are much more efficient.

[MarvinTheMartian]

Of course the capabilities of CLS1 that Marvin mentions aren't fully realized until the pilot has gained a number of levels of experience. Don't be fooled by the 1 supplier/ware, 3 destinations that the apprentice has.

I have to admit that I fire and hire pilots until I get a cargo messenger which overcomes this hurdle, you may not want to do that in your game so good point to make. You can also "convert" a good level CAG or CLS2 pilot into the equivalent experience CLS1 pilot.

[MarvinTheMartian]

In the past, I only adjusted the trade blacklist / whitelists. But now, I find I need to know how to fiddle with the product buy / sell levels.
I am currently using a CAG to buy Boarding Pods at my Dock. The thing is, the CAG is going out to buy even one single pod at a time. I would like to adjust the buy levels so that he only goes shopping when the destination has 8. No need to go any earlier.

Pods are an exception, unfortunately. The reason is that they're the one transportable ware that only exists in a "dock" and this means that the prices is always the same whether there's 1 item or 8. The way you'd tackle this with any other ware is by setting the price lower (= more in stock) but in a dock the price never changes. Short answer is, with CAG and pods at least, you can't do much about it. However, I'd still recommend CAG as the one ship can do multiple products without setting up waypoints but if you want to get specific you could assign a small ship (e.g. M4/3) to the task that has at least 24 units (6 x 4S for pods) free cargo after jump fuel (which it will use less of) and other essential equipment
EDIT: I've just done a test and the CAG pilot will travel further in order to buy more of a product. Also, in my AP game outposts stock a max of 6 boarding pods not 8

I also have future plans to create a two-dock market to maximize trading profits. One dock buys and the other one sells. The thing is, the buy dock will have no source of income on its own. So I plan to have a CAG at the sell dock that will buy from the buy dock, giving it a stream of income. I would to know how to adjust the CAG buy/sell levels to keep goods moving between the docks.
Can anyone help me with these?

This I have an answer for
Dock 1 buys wares at the lowest practical price
CLS1 ship transfers wares from Dock 1 to Dock 2 at Average* price
Dock 2 sells wares at highest practical price
Both Docks make a share of the profit
* this depends on the selling price of dock 2, if you're using CAG to sell at something close to max then average price will do, if you're expecting NPC to come to you then dock 2 will be set at 1 below average likely so the inter dock transfer price will be set at half way between the buy and sell price

I use this to force feed IBL/PBG forges to keep them running and buy them at lowest price

[Jimmy C]

I've just done a test and the CAG pilot will travel further in order to buy more of a product. Also, in my AP game outposts stock a max of 6 boarding pods not 8

Yeah, 8 was my mistake. And while a CAG will go further to get more, the first pass emptied everyone of Pods. So the CAG just kept going to the first place that had one pod available.

This I have an answer for

I've gotten used to using CLS2, but I've never found any instruction on how to set up CLS1.

I've given CLS1 a test run, I think I have an idea of how to set it up. I also dug out an old (from TC!) document about the various traders. I wonder if the list on the number of products CLS1 can deal in at various levels are still valid for AP?

Edit: Tried it out. Level 1 CLS1 is still only good for one product as per document. I would prefer to use a low-level guy to move products between docks. Can a Level 1 CAG buy from a Dock?

[RAVEN.myst]

I'm not sure how you are expecting your proposed two-dock approach to be more lucrative than just using a single dock with CAGs (though I would be interested in seeing your results.) In one of my current games, I have a CW-wide HUB-CAG and it's generating on average 10-12 million per game hour, peaking at around 16 sometimes, using 60 traders (Mercury Haulers in this Argon playthrough, all with JDs, of course) and 2 refuellers to get the necessary jumpfuel to keep them going (I have found that including ECs in the trade lists inevitably leads to trouble, unless dealing exclusively in ECs - that's where I use a second dock, eventually). After about 50 ships, however, the profits stopped increasing - not sure whether I am saturating the market, or what, but I've found this happens every time (sometimes a bit sooner, in the low 40s) - I am trading CW-wide but not with Terrans (at war with them, but would generally avoid them anyway even if I were on good terms, as CAG doesn't use jump beacons, so trekking across gateless Terran space slows down revenues - to this end, I usually, except in special situations, enable the trade only in sectors with a jumpgate option in Exceptions.)

The way I see it, running two docks would merely add inefficiency - extra freighters, and no possibility of "triangular trips" (ie. freighter fills up, goes out to sell to a customer, then jumps straight to a supplier and buys stuff before coming back home - only happens at high pilot levels, perhaps only at Master Dealer.) Also, you would be adding the internal logistics required to move stuff from your inbound to your outbound dock, so more ships there. So you're looking at higher start-up costs AND greater complexity (more complexity often results in lower efficiency, and almost always means greater chance of wheels falling off somewhere.)

CAGs are perfectly capable of operating in a buying-AND-selling capacity. Also, if your thresholds are set correctly, an integrated system using a single dock is self-regulating. TIP: just make sure that your min station balance for purchase is set high enough - the default value of 30,000 is absurd, as just about any cargo will kill that - I generally use a minimum of 1,000,000 for my trainees (sub-Trader pilots, who don't yet use JDs), and between 2 and 3kk for my "graduates", with a transfer limit of 5kk, which I later raise. I set my trainees to buy more aggressively not just money-threshold-wise, but also capacity-filled-wise, so they will buy up to 70% of storage space, while my graduates will buy up to 60%, while my graduates sell more aggressively, so down to 20% or 30% of stock cap while trainees sell down to 30% or 40%. These narrower bands than default help to maintain stock levels with less fluctuation, which is helpful to protect against both gluts and shortages.

Generally, I don't impose trade lists on my merchantmen, rather letting them choose their wares themselves, as they tend to opt for best profitability that way. However, if I find that I want to stimulate the weapons industry, for example, I might set some to specialise in ore, or if I want to boost production of PBGs and IBLs, then having a couple of booze runners is helpful. Alternatively, if I'm looking at having my reputation with a faction worked on "hands-free", then I will assign some specialists for that race's foods.

As mentioned previously, I exclude ECs from the main dock's CAGs' trade-lists - the reason is that I've found that if I allow trade in them, then inevitably it leads to a fuel shortage, and that in turn leads not only to longer trips (wasted time), but also to down-time at the dock itself (more wasted time) and occasionally to ships taking long "on foot" trips back, with not only wastes time but also exposes them to danger (even Xenon sectors, sometimes.) This happens regardless of how many fuel tankers you assign. However, because the economy ends up well stocked on minerals and food, the bottleneck then becomes energy, which provides a dual opportunity - firstly, there's profit to be made directly through providing ECs; secondly, your main trade network will pick up if energy is provided, as that will "lubricate" industry, allowing demand for minerals and food to be maintained, instead of tapering off with market saturation of stalled, energy-starved factories. To this end, at a certain point in the game I either set up my secondary trade dock dealing exclusively in ECs, or (more often) I simply throw up a SPP complex and start mass-producing and exporting energy using CAGs.

If you do find measurable benefits in profitability without reliability issues, I'd definitely be interested in hearing about it Personally, I doubt that tripling the complexity (from single-dock to two-docks + interlinking internal logistics) will prove worthwhile - but that doesn't mean the experiment isn't. And if it does turn out to be viable, more people may find uses for their spare Corp HQs, hehehe. (I use these for dedicated EC trade hubs in late game with CW, or as local trade hub at Venus with 1-jump radius when playing as Terran.) I'll be watching this topic avidly, as I find it encouraging to find someone else who values docks and CAGs as I do - I find it to be the most powerful economic tool in the game.

[MarvinTheMartian]

Edit: Tried it out. Level 1 CLS1 is still only good for one product as per document. I would prefer to use a low-level guy to move products between docks. Can a Level 1 CAG buy from a Dock?

there's a quick and easy method for getting a mid-level CAG/CLS pilot that can use a jump drive as well as handle multiple products but I understand if you think that's an exploit.

I'm not sure how you are expecting your proposed two-dock approach to be more lucrative than just using a single dock with CAGs (though I would be interested in seeing your results.)

the "problem" with using docks for buying and selling with CAG is that you can only set one price and the CAG pilot will buy at that price (or below) and sell at that price +1 (or above) so when supply and demand are both good you can do a tidy profit but after a while you can find your CAGs going long distances for a truly pathetic profit (probably loss after jump energy).
Using two docks means you can buy at once price and sell at another, managed independently. Although a very expensive option that would possibly be better solved with a MK3 trader - I use it though to buy/sell very selectively (IBLs, PBGs and the like)
There is a CAG price setting that I've never really understood, it didn't look like it sets independent buy/sell pricing so I've not bothered with it. apologies if you addressed that in your post but it's a bit TL;DR

[ancienthighway]

I'm not sure you are really gaining anything with weapons that can only be sold at average price at docks, outposts, and bases. And with IBLs, and PBGs aren't stocked at any bases, so they would have to be sold manually. That pretty much holds true for any of the weapons and beyond IREs, PACs, HEPTs, Mosquitoes, Tomahawks, Flail Barrage, and Hammer Heavy Torpedoes. Go ahead and set those to buy at minimum price, then if you really fell the need to sell them, sell what you can using CLS2 and everything else manually. Building your own varies that a bit, on acquiring stock, but selling remains the same.

Minerals, food and bio on the other hand would work effectively with 2 docks if you are buying from and selling to NPCs. If you are just shipping your excess to the dock for selling or using the dock to purchase resources, only one dock is needed.

[MarvinTheMartian]

I'm not sure you are really gaining anything with weapons that can only be sold at average price at docks, outposts, and bases.

If I don't supply the IBL/PBG factories no one else will and I stockpile them (IBL anyway) for my boarded capitals. The other reason is to maintain pirate/Yaki reputation. It does pile up quite quickly though and in my last TC game I think I had a billion credits worth (at average price) stashed in various places by the end.

I have actually had time to read though RAVEN.myst's post and find it very interesting. I got a little tired of MK3 traders a while ago - found them high maintenance - so the idea of making 10's of millions through one dock while keeping the economy going is appealing. Personally though, my aim is to be selective and keep only the factories I'm interested in working at full capacity, EBC forges and ammo for example and that limited market does cause the issues with narrow supply/demand prices I mentioned before.

Minerals, food and bio on the other hand would work effectively with 2 docks if you are buying from and selling to NPCs

the biggest barrier to this is the storage capacity of the docks, the Hub is okay but the storage capacity of EQ docks, trading stations and, sadly, the corp HQ you get in AP are extremely limited and artificially limit the sale volume potential

[ancienthighway]

I wasn't clear in my comment you quoted. There's no gain in using two docks over one for those items. There's a lot of gain in trading them though.

Considering the cost of the EQ docks and trading stations one is probably better off setting up something along the lines of what Timsup2nothing does. It will be much cheaper and allows more flexibility in where and how many of these complexes to set up. Mines make ore so fast that running some LTs in those areas works just fine. If bio, food, covered by you, the mineral producers and consumers will keep rolling demanding your transport assistance.

[RainerPrem]

Hi,

Well, here is another weird problem.

I've got a complex in Argon Prime. The Hub is connected to AP South gate and Althes South gate. If I set my jump range to four jumps, the CAGs can roam as far as Uranus and everything is fine. But if I increase the range by 1, allowing access to Saturn, I regularly lose a trader in Asteroid Belt on its way to Saturn.

Any idea how that comes?

cu
Rainer

[Jimmy C]

The Hub changes distance calculations. Because you connected to the Althes South Gate, you added one more sector to the trip from Neptune to Saturn. Connect to the Althes North Gate (that pairs with Neptune) instead and it might solve your problem. Or the traders might still feel going through Asteroid Belt is the shorter trip. In which case, you'll have to find some other way to service Saturn.

[RainerPrem]

Hi,

Sorry, I forgot to mention that there is a Jump beacon in Saturn in this game. So path calculations shouldn't matter...

cu
Rainer

Edit: And, yes, these traders all are high enough to use the jump drive, AND they all have enough ecells on board AND jumping is switched on.