GOD algorithm for removing stations in X3TC

[minderbinder77]

I have just put a lot of effort (using CLS 2) into ensuring the factories in Terran Space are supplied with all the basics - energy, water, food and ore. My main goal was to save the economy and stop GOD removing stations, which I wanted to do as a priority.

However, I have now seen a couple of references on the forum to GOD only removing stations if they fill up with goods and nobody buys them. So my questions are:

1. Does supplying a station (as opposed to buying from it) stop the station from being removed by GOD?

2. Have I just speeded up the removal of Terran stations by supplying to them but not buying from them?

3. If the stations are starved of resources and cannot produce, will GOD still remove them?

4. Am I better off just using sector traders rather than CLS2 to save the Terran economy?

5. Any tips or guides on saving the Terran Economy would be appreciated. Ideally, I want the cheapest and quickest way (apart from just parking ships in stations or using scripts) to keep Terran stations from being removed so I can get on with the game without worrying about them.

Many thanks in advance!

[Alan Phipps]

I *think* the GoD engine looks at the number (not value or ware quantity) of trades (in or out) at the station, the rate of ship visits the station is having, and whether a player-owned ship is parked there.

Although the trade and visit quantities are linked, there does not seem to have to be that much trading necessary to keep a station alive. Perhaps unsuccessful trades count and the 'fluff' non-trading NPC ships help too just by visiting. Maybe the player can help just by visiting in-person or remotely too.

Naturally either having no resources to allow production or no free storage left for end-products may quickly cause trade-oriented visits to the station to stagnate. It is best to avoid such situations developing if you can.

So ... 1 - yes as long as the products sell, 2 - not necessarily, 3 - yes, 4 - you will probably need both to avoid missing types of stations and wares, 5 - make sure that you fully trade with (or park a ship at) stations that make things you may want later in the game. All answers are also subject to the whim of the RNG of course.

Some other tips in older threads that you can easily Google for (Terran + Economy) such as here and here.

Having said all of that, I vaguely recall that GoD was reigned in a bit for the Terran economy in a later patch - but whether that was TC or AP I am unsure.

If you play modified, there is this too.

[pref]

Having said all of that, I vaguely recall that GoD was reigned in a bit for the Terran economy in a later patch - but whether that was TC or AP I am unsure.

I think it must be TC:
- In current vanilla AP game im missing ghoul and PSP NPC fabs completely.
- TC did not have all terran stations for sale, so such patch is more critical there

[Bill Huntington]

I'm wondering about the concern for the Terran economy. The God Engine operates in all of TC. If you want particular stations to be around anywhere in TC, you'd better park a ship there or trade with them. I see it most often in the big Solars selling Energy. I don't want to worry too much about it, so I use Trade 3 to create Traders. I use Local Traders with a 2 to 4 sector ranges to cover all of the TC universe that I want. I buy SBs when I get to Aldrin, train them there two at a time, then cover Terran space with Local Traders with a range of 1. All this makes steady $ and gives rep gains over time, but mainly I do it to keep the stations away from the God Engine.

I hope this helps.

[Timsup2nothin]

The concern for the Terran economy is because it suffers from GD algorithm hits much more than the rest of the universe. The reasons for this are more than these, but these are the big ones:

Sector size: AI traders set out for the nearest deal, but if that deal gets made before they get there, they don't know it until they get there. Add the gigantic sector travel times and you get parades of AI traders heading towards deals that don't exist, while other stations languish and die.

Unique weapons: Weapons traders in the rest of the universe are always willing to buy, because there's always a dock somewhere that will take the product, even if it is clear across the universe. Only Terran docks buy Terran stuff, so if the relatively few Terran docks fill up, no one buys.

To the OP...if you have used a network to keep the Terran stations supplied and productive the only thing remaining for you to do in order to not only protect all the stations but get really rich in the process is set up buyers to pick up cheap weapons and missiles and dump them into a big freighter docked at Saturn Research Station. Any time your funds get low, empty that freighter. Saturn Research Station buys everything, in endless quantities, for average price.

[ancienthighway]

I'm not convinced sector size harms the Terran economy anymore than it does the CW economy.

The distance from where the trader starts to destination does impact on the desired trade though.

Most Terran energy, bio, and food are available in sector. Those that aren't are perhaps one sector away. In CW space though, the reources may be 4 or 5 sectors away if it exists at all.

An example of what I mean is the Teladi space around PTNI Headquarters. To support all of the weapon, shield, and a scattering of tech production there is 1 large and 1 small food chain, 2 medium ore mines and 1 medium silicon mine. That 4 sector area include Two Grand which in one of the largest CW sectors not to different in the size of Terran sectors.

NPC traders can potentially travel much further in CW space to satisfy a trade

Player traders in CW space have the potential to jump most of the distance away with the only flight time being in the last sector before the trade. Players can also build the stations the fill in shortfalls where they are needed much much sooner in CW sectors than they can in Terran sectors, which further shortens distance to trade completion. Whether that happens or not depends on the player.

In the end, NPC traders end up flying roughly the same distance to complete a trade, whether it's Terran or CW space. If sector size was an issue for Terran space, there are a number of CW sectors that would end up with no stations as well.

As far as weapons, there is at least one buyer of Terran weapons in every populated sector, and a number of unknown sectors at the end of the solar system. Many of those sectors have two buyers. Not unlike equipment and trading docks in the CW, stocks are periodically reduced with no "trade" involved. Inactive weapon forges is caused by resource shortages more that no place to sell there products. Water tends to be the resource in the highest demand initially.

Move to the Argon sectors around Light of Heart, and while food may not be an issue, the major energy source is in the corner of Akeela's Beacon, another huge Terran sized sector, which is furthest away from the gates. One medium ore and three medium silicon mines in the sector southern most sector is available to supply minerals.

[minderbinder77]

Thank you all for your responses and thanks Tim for the tip re Saturn research station - I'm going to set that up.

[Timsup2nothin]

Two Grand is an example. Note though that the adjacent sectors are much more manageable. There are more comparable examples out in Split space, where you can find three or four or even more gigantic sectors strung together. Not coincidentally those areas also take a pounding from the GD algorithm. It comes down to the trader AI measuring distance in sectors and returning bad decisions.

This reminded me of another significant contributor to Terran space problems though. Not enough death and dismemberment.

In regular space look at a really overproduced ware, like Argnu Beef. Pick up a load of that stuff, it's like herpes, your trader is just stuck with it. But cattle ranches hardly ever get removed. Why? Bio haulers are always buying the stuff. Where is all the beef going?

It is feeding the spaceflies! Look at pirate sectors. Look at Xenon migration routes. Every time one of those fully loaded bio haulers wallows into trouble and dies it gets immediately replaced...by a big empty bio hauler. Weapons traders, same thing. But Terran space is almost totally safe. A big full energy hauler might fly around forever, never being first to a sale, and never buying anything again. No buyers, SPP disappears.

[Morkonan]

***Edit:Add-11/02/15 - See my next post, below, for a definitive set of parameters for the god-engine in X3TC regarding station deletions.

I have just put a lot of effort (using CLS 2) into ensuring the factories in Terran Space are supplied with all the basics - energy, water, food and ore. My main goal was to save the economy and stop GOD removing stations, which I wanted to do as a priority.

However, I have now seen a couple of references on the forum to GOD only removing stations if they fill up with goods and nobody buys them. So my questions are:

It has been a long time... I used to know it fairly well and I have a breakdown of it on another computer. (If I get to that one soon, I'll look it up.)

1. Does supplying a station (as opposed to buying from it) stop the station from being removed by GOD?

What stops a station being removed by the god engine is an instance of docking. It does not matter if it's buying or selling or doing nothing. If something docks with the station, it resets the timer. (Basically. An attempt at a more full explanation, below.)

2. Have I just speeded up the removal of Terran stations by supplying to them but not buying from them?

Yes and no. If a station has a full inventory of finished products and no docking has occurred in xx amount of time, then the station is subject to be deleted by the god engine. (Or, is that raw materials... I forget atm. Either way, an instance of docking will always reset the timer.)

3. If the stations are starved of resources and cannot produce, will GOD still remove them?

Only if a station has not been docked with after xx amount of time. It doesn't matter why it was docked with, only that it was. This is to provide for both buying and selling activity in one blow.

4. Am I better off just using sector traders rather than CLS2 to save the Terran economy?...

5. Any tips or guides on saving the Terran Economy would be appreciated. Ideally, I want the cheapest and quickest way (apart from just parking ships in stations or using scripts) to keep Terran stations from being removed so I can get on with the game without worrying about them.

The fastest and most sure way of keeping the stations from being deleted is to park a cheap M5 in one of the docking slots. No ifs, ands or buts... The god-engine will never, ever, remove a station that has a player-ship docked at it. However, you absolutely must check on those docked ships from time to time. It is possible for a ship that is docked, with no currently active process going on, to be forcibly undocked by the station in order to receive another ship. Once that ship leaves, the counter starts up again. If you don't check on your parked ships, there's the risk that a station will either go long enough without your player-ship docked or without any ship docked and having its finished product inventory at full.

*Note: If a Terran station is attacked by a pirate patrol, which WILL happen from time to time in the Unknown sectors, Oort Cloud or Kuiper Belt, then it will likely forcibly undock a player-owned ship that is not piloted by the player. If the station is destroyed by pirates, you can sometimes tell because you'll have a player-owned "parking" ship sitting in a sector and nothing to park at... (IF the pirates didn't go hostile on it.)

In a nutshell, if nobody wants anything to do with the station (no ships are docking to buy or sell) and the station has full inventory of finished products, then the station is subject to deletion by the god-engine. (And, there's something that has to do with raw materials, too, but I can't remember it atm.)

To save the Terran economy:

Certain Terran sectors in X3TC are not set to be "active" until the player enters that sector. These include The Moon and Earth and, IIRC, any other plot-related unlockable Terran sector. (It has been awhile, sorry. Will try to clear that up when I can find my notes. )

What this means is that any production facilities in any of these sectors will not be available to Terrans until the player unlocks them. That's good and bad, in a way. Good in that they will NOT be deleted by the god-engine until after the player visits them and starts the counters, Bad in that those possible resources can't be traded by the AI. (Have to check my notes on that, AI may still be able to trade, but not sure if factories "work" during that time.)

Terran headquarters, defensive stations, shipyards and supply depots are not subject to deletion by the god-engine. No plot-related orbitals are subject to deletion by the god-engine. (Saturn station, for example.) However, any factory IS subject to deletion as soon as its counter starts ticking.

The first thing you should do is work very quickly to buy a few M5s, unarmed, untweaked, just the raw frame. Send them to missile factories. Then, buy some more and send them straight to the Kerris factory and the anti-matter whatsits factory. Next, send them out to the big weapons factories. You want at least one of each type of factory secured as soon as possible. That's because certain missile and other factories are not purchasable in X3TC no matter how far you get in unlocking Terran space. (I'll get you a full list, later.)

It's best to try to lockdown all the factories with parked ships. That isn't impossible, but it does take a lot of work. IIRC, it's over 200 ships that you have to have, so it may seem like a pretty big deal, at first. But, they're cheap and if you go with Argon M5s, which is very easy to do and you can buy them in Omicron Lyrae, then you'll easily be able to do it.

So, let's talk about reviving the Terran economy. For starters, it can be done and it takes less work than you might think, as long as you're focused on the goal.

What do the Terrans need? Read the lore/manual/stories... They need water and they need it in a big way. Water is a base raw production material needed in a variety of manufacturing chains in Terran space and you can't get it anywhere else. That means you need to focus on the Ice mines (asteroids), delivering E-Cells and food to them, and carting that Ice to water production facilities, then off to the food production facilities. Everywhere you find an Ice mine, that's a focus area. Everywhere there is a Water production center, that's a focused area. And, most important of ALL - Every single Supply depot/whatever station that resells Ice, Water and E-cells must also be stocked by you. ALL OF THEM!

In the end, you will develop a four-fold strategy. The first is securing the missile, kerris, anti-matter factories, since you can't buy them. And, along with that, securing critical stations with parked ships. The second is ramping up production of Ice Mines and Water factories. The third is distributing Water and other needed supplies to the food factories. The fourth, and last, is distributing these supplies, focusing on critical needs and being sure that all distribution hubs are fully stocked so that the AI can assist in distributing these products to places in need.

Do do this, you will need around 12 tradeships. (That's to get most of everything stable. More is better, as long as they're not stepping on each-other's feet.) I suggest using the Baldric as it's the fastest and there are no jump gates in Terran space past the Asteroid Belt. That speed could count for quite a lot of trade, over time. But, it's more critical to start with something so use whatever you have to. Buy the cheapest merchant vessel whatsits available from Omicron Lyrae if you have to. Do NOT worry about upgrading anything - Get those suckers working and save your cash for trades and other merchant vessels.

Center your traders on the Ice Mines, Supply Depots and Solar Energy plants. Give them a two "jump" range, since anything longer than that will likely take them too much time in Terran space. Put at least one or two in Heritic's End, to take advantage of the relatively healthy Argon economy and their E-Cell production. (It's likely that you will lose a few Terran Solar Power Plants.)

Once you have those areas covered, cover all the food-production sectors and put at least one or two traders in the Asteroid Belt, so they can start helping to supply the Hull/whatsits factories, which can net you some really good profit, even though they are not Tier1 raw materials for many Terran factories.

Waaaay out at the far end of Terran space are a couple of missile fabs that you will want to protect. Send traders out there, but they'll need some protection as this is where the majority of pirates come from in Terran space. (Other sectors are too well patrolled by big, nasty, Terran ships that blow the crap out of anything that blinks at them...)

To protect these few sectors, Kuiper Belt, Oort Cloud, western edge of Pluto and the Unknown Sectors, you want to set up a patrol that goes through all of those sectors. Later, you can more heavily patrol them or give certain sectors their own guard ships. (Kuiper Belt is a good place for a dedicated, small, patrol force. Run it to the Western Gate of Pluto, then back again and through towards the main station there, then repeat.)

A good OOS patrol for Terran space consists of one to three Teladi Heavy Osprey with a sortie of accompanying M3s. The more Ospreys you have in the patrol, the less M3s you need. There is nothing that an OS patrol of Heavy Ospreys is likely to encounter while patrolling Terrain space that they can not handle without supervision. Yes, they are slow, but that only matters going from sector to sector or getting within combat range of an enemy ship when you are actively watching the battle. Other than that and the initiative rounds of combat, speed doesn't matter. But, armor, shields and armament do - That's why you're using Heavy Ospreys. Mount the best non-ammo weapon you can put on them and set up a patrol for those far sectors.

You may also want a similar patrol, backed up by something a bit nastier, in Heretic's End. Don't bother patrolling anywhere else unless you notice something weird, like a Pirate base at the extreme edge of a busy sector or repeated Khaak attacks in an outlying zone.

It is best, at first, to use the Manual Trade method for your ships in Terran space. At least until you can train up some good traders. Once you can afford it, and you've got Terran space covered using manual trading, start outfitting ships with Trade software and setting back up. Yes, it will be very busy for you at this point. You will not have time to do anything other than manage your dozen or so traders while you're using the Manual Trading method. (Everything by hand.) That's OK, just transition them as soon as you can to automated traders, one or two at a time. (Send them to buy the necessary upgrades to PTNI Headquarters (Teladi) and Omicron Lyrae (Argon).) IF you decide to expand their trade zone outside of 2 sectors, then be sure you have adequate coverage or the economy is stable enough that AI traders will pick up the slack.

Once the Terran economy is stable and growing, stations will come back. (But, you still need to protect those missile fabs, kerris and anti-matter (IIRC) factories, at first.) However, they may not come back where they were, originally. So, keep an eye out and adjust your traders as necessary to take advantage of new opportunities.

When the Terran economy is healthy, you will barely be able to enter critical connecting sectors like Asteroid Belt without worrying about causing damage to your own ships, since your presence activates collision boxes and pathfinding AU.

On training CLS pilots - Buy 10 M5s, the faster the better, and set up a patrol for them from Asteroid Belt to Pluto and back. In each Sector, dock at one of the permanent stations (Supply, Shipyard, etc.). All that matters is the number of sectors that they travel and dock (no trades necessary for CLS), so keep them on a "training" non-combat patrol loop. As you need CLS pilots, go to your training cadre and grab an experienced one. (Note - In Terran Space, when the economy is fairly healthy, and your trainee pilots are in M5s, on a non-combat patrol, nothing likely to be found in these sectors can easily touch them. So, it's a nice, safe, route to train on.)

Once you have accomplished all this, you will have a very good, steady, source of income and you will have access to any of the overpowered Terran weapons and ships you want.

One bit of advice - You'll be spending a good bit of cash and effort doing all this, but it's worth it. Once you've done that and have it going reasonably well, go get a Split Elephant, the best bang-for-your-buck as far as TLs are concerned. Do station building missions in Commonwealth space (Let the Terrans deal with their own building until you finish the Main Terran Plot and can access all the available stations.) This will net you very fast returns on your investment as station building missions are the best in terms of returns for time spent that you can get IF you have your own, fast, TL. After you get a good nest-egg and Terran space is chugging along nicely, start working on your main factory complexes and the main plot line.

For a good reference regarding the starting stations (the ones you want to save) and Terran space, so you can plan your economy-saving strategy, see here: http://eng.x3tc.net/x3_tc_map/ Make a chart of all the sectors and the stations within them, then check those stations off, one by one, as you park ships at them. Then, use the map to determine how you set up your initial trade strategy.

[pref]

What stops a station being removed by the god engine is an instance of docking. It does not matter if it's buying or selling or doing nothing. If something docks with the station, it resets the timer. (Basically. An attempt at a more full explanation, below.)

You mean the production/consupmtion does not matter, just the 'last dock timer'? I thought as long as it's produces, the timer will not start.

This would make it possible for stations with longer production ques to get removed while still producing? Or maybe the timer is synced with production time, and differs for every station.

[Morkonan]

On the god-engine and deletions as well as player-ships being docked: OK, I dug up my old notes from my other computer. Will be in quote form with links to the source and the referenced threads:

http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php? ... 83#3819683


The key point is that the ship was undocked before the factory was deleted. If the station goes whilst a player asset is docked it's due to enemy action - simple as that, and has been throughout TC.

Link - http://forum.egosoft.de/viewtopic.php?p=2857820#2857820

Basically GoD operates on certain parameters and will only remove a station if those parameters are met;
Not a Dock ie, EQD, Shipyard, trading station, military outpost or similar.
Not the last factory in a sector.
The product is at maximum.
No NPC ships have docked for a length of time determined by RNG.
Not if the player has any assets docked.
Not required by a Plot.

Carlo the Curious (former Mod) confirms that the requirement that player ships became one of the parameters of GoD was added in a patch for X3R and thus X3TC and by extension X3AP also include the requirement.

(direct link to the post: http://forum.egosoft.com/viewtopic.php? ... 87#3819587)

This is definitive and verified for X3TC, at least, as far as I know. (My extensive collection of notes is better than the forum's search engine... on X3TC topics, that is. )

You mean the production/consupmtion does not matter, just the 'last dock timer'? I thought as long as it's produces, the timer will not start.

This would make it possible for stations with longer production ques to get removed while still producing? Or maybe the timer is synced with production time, and differs for every station.

The only thing "random" is the RNG amount of time between dockings. When the product reaches maximum capacity, then there's a RNG for a ship-docking timer. If no ship docks within that random amount of time, and no other parameters above prevent station deletion, the station will be scheduled for removal. (Not sure how that works, mechanically. I think they just blow up OOS.)

[minderbinder77]

This is very helpful Morkonan - thank you. I think I understand now how GOD works.

I hate to go the route of parking ships but I lost a lot of stations before I had my Terran trade network up and running (inspired by Tim's CLS guide) so I might restart after I have completed the Terran plot and park a few M5s in key stations as a stop gap.

Unfortunately I have a Kha'ak M1 and M2 laying waste to Circle of Labour, which my Sabre can't quite handle! so I'm stuck on a certain mission until they go away (still there after a full game day) or I can afford a better ship!

[pref]

Thanks, good to know!
I thought it has a chance of removal if its constantly out of resources as well.

[Timsup2nothin]

I have tried starving them out of existence before without success. Cramming them full of resources and shooting anyone who comes looking to buy product does work.

[Morkonan]

I have tried starving them out of existence before without success. Cramming them full of resources and shooting anyone who comes looking to buy product does work.

Oh, that's evil... I like it!

[Timsup2nothin]

I have tried starving them out of existence before without success. Cramming them full of resources and shooting anyone who comes looking to buy product does work.

Oh, that's evil... I like it!

One man's evil is another's standard business practices.