[X3AP] Odin v.s. Woden? and how high is fighter mortality rate?

[someonenoone11]

EDIT: I didn't know Turbo Boost Existed! This makes Fenrir > Spitfyre in all scenarios so I removed the question.

Because there are no terran dockable M2's (except valhalla), I want to use the Odin or Woden as my anti-capital-ship ship. Basically if I see I have to fight a M2 I'd jump in my Odin/Woden, dock, and then control the broadside PSP's manually.

Statistically speaking, the Woden is superior to the Odin in every way, but I like how the Odin looks, like a thousand times more, so if I can get away with it, i want to use the Odin. Can the Odin with only 6 broadside PSPs take out any capship in the game with proper strafing and charged attacks?

Finally, it would be nice to have 20 or 30 fully outfitted fenrirs supporting me, but even a single fighter is a real pain in the ass to outfit, and if they drop like flies then I don't think its worth the effort. So how high is your fighter mortality rate when fighting an M2?

[ancienthighway]

Let me say up front, I've had no experience with what you are thinking of doing.

Experience and observation though show that fast ships tend to crash into things frequently. If I was flooding the air with fighters, I'd keep the speed well under 200m/s. If you are sticking solely with Terran, the #deca.cefa is much cheaper than the Spitfyre and has more cargo space allowing 8 PMA/AML to be mounted and still have space for ammo and missiles. The Scimitar may actually be a better choice than the Fenir if the plan is to using it as a missile boat. Better shielding and speed at a cheaper cost.

Unless you have your own stations making EEMPCs, PMA/AML, EMPCs, and Spectres, you'll have a hard time rapidly replacing losses and usage. Again, sticking with Terran only you don't have much choice, but if you are willing to use CW ships, many more options become available and replenishment becomes a non-issue.

[someonenoone11]

I guess I was unclear what I was asking within my wall of text. XD

So basically it comes down to:
1. Do you think Fenrir or Spitfyre is superior as your personal M3? i.e. the ship you will spend 99% of the time in.
2. Is Fenrir+Spectre missiles better or Spitfyre with MAML better at killing larger targets? I remember killing M7's without being shot once with a TM (zephyrus) and Typhoon Missiles. Thats right a TRANSPORT killed M7s easily!
3. Should I bother with #2 if I have access to an Odin/Woden?
4. Can the Odin under player control take out all M2s or do I have to upgrade to Woden to stand a chance?
5. How good are fighter wings v.s. M2's? Do they shred them to pieces or do they get annihilated? Whats the average casualty of 30 fighters v.s. a strong M2 like Boreas, Tyr, or something like a flak-infested Cerberus?

@ancienthighway
Thanks for replying. Yes I do know how a big pain in the ass it is to outfit a terran flight wing so I will be making a massive production complex if I do go this route, however, I'm not sure if I will bother with the fighter wing. Even when i played as a common wealth getting 1 eclipse up and running was excruciatingly painful, so the thought of replacing destroyed fenrirs on a constant basis is horrifying. If casualty is very low then I might, which is why I'm asking.

Edit: Questions 1, 2, and 3 are now obsolete. I answered them myself

[Black_hole_suN]

Did you take a look at the hull points of Odin and Woden? iirc they were not changed since TC so they are actually less durable than a Tokyo. You can easily fix this by editing the Tship entries for their hull value using x3editor 2


Both ships has PSP and a laser generators that could easily power them so you could destroy any ship with a Woden/Odin

Honestly, 30 fighters working without support from you might be enough to kill a boreas but it could never be enough to kill a tyr.. Expect heavy casualties on both ships.. 30 ships will eat through a cerberus full if flaks with 0-5 casualties.

My personal rule when using fighter wings is the more fighters i use the less ships i would have to replace later

edit: dont forget to install Bounce mod by Litecube

[Bill Huntington]

I've tried M1s and found them below average for serious combat. The Tokyo was my choice for an M1 and the Raptor was second choice. Remember that the AI controls the combat of the M3s that you use. Everything takes a long time and the AI does not press home its attacks. You could get lucky and attack a target without good flak. If it has flak you're going to take losses. I'm not sure you could even kill a M2 if it was handled well. Then again it's the AI. Who knows?

When I invade the Xenon sectors in a Tyr, I have SSC up and down. I kill so many Ls with SSC that they run away from me and even go hide in the SY. I stopped counting after 50 in one session and shortly after that they ran away; that was while I killing all the J, K, and Q they sent my way. The point is that the AI does not do well with M3s attacking M2s. Each blast of SCC usually hits an M3 and kills it. A second shot will finish it for sure.

The key factor in serious combat is shield strength. The Tyr has 6 x 2MJ. The Kyoto has 7 x 2 but it's so slow. The Boreas has 5 x 2 which makes it marginal for serious combat or survival in the Xenon sectors.

The Woden still has those huge fins which lead to many M3 crashes when landing. That makes it unusable for anything.

I used the Tokyo in a battle cruiser role for a while. But it just didn't have the shields to survive. Of course you keep it out of the hardest combat. But Q can spawn anywhere in a Xenon sector and then there's too much trouble. You might beat one but then another pops up. If you're recovering your M3s, that's disrupted. If you run and jump out, then you leave your M3s and probably lose a lot of them.

Good Luck!

[Black_hole_suN]

its the Odin that has those huge engine blocks where fighters crash into.. Woden has its docking ports at the front so it is much safer to dock in it

[someonenoone11]

Ok thanks for your input everyone.

So in conclusion:
1. I will not be using fighter wings
2. Tyr is the best ship I can use (sticking strictly to ATF exclusive)
3. Player controlled Odin can kill any M2, but can't kill a 2nd M2 due to resource troubles.

Ok I guess I will use Odin strictly as a warehouse (energy cells + Spectre Missiles), maybe also as a high-level assassin mission ship, and amass as many Tyrs as possible for Xenon sectors.

Thanks!

[fireanddream]

1. I'd say neither, Fenrir leaves you 136 cargo space for missiles+Ecells, Spitfyre leaves you practically none. If you have 20 mosquito or so on board for MDM, then the remaining cargo space is laughable.

2. Typhooning is just as cheap as Tomahawking and Hammer torpedo-ing, if you're willing to go that way, a Mistral can kill anything with tornado. However, back to your question, I think spitfyre with PMAML is more viable. Your fenrir can only carry ~30 spectre anyway, most of which will get shot down anyway.

3. Depends on your own style. But after all, why restrict yourself to fighters? We complain about being locked inside the albion skunk in Rebirth a lot; being able to jump from M2 to M5, to try out bombers, destroyers, fighters, corvettes, was a great joy to me.

4. Again, depends. If you go super technical and hard core, kiting, wraith-ing, strafing, Odin is more than capable to kill any M2. If you just leave all the guns under AI control and just casually flying, wooden being an M1 can't fight most M2 without taking hull damage.

5. A single fighter wings vs M2 is a pretty bad idea, without a big daddy diverging the damage you'll lose quite a few EVERY SINGLE FIGHT, along with a bunch of 50% hull ones.

And in the end, single player simulation game, all depends on how hard you try. On the classic Tokyo vs Odin comparison, why fly a ship that looks like a mobile mining base? There is NO I-have-to-do-this-or-else-I-lose scenario in the game, pick the ships you like and just have fun with the game.

[someonenoone11]

I completely embraced your single player philosophy before I posted this thread. I get a power trip over being the most technologically advanced entity in any game, and ATF fits the bill in this game (although performance wise, like you pointed out, USC is superior.)

Using Odin instead of bombers is for fun. I haven't really embraced the capital ship v.s. capital ship in x3TC (because I was M7M happy. It was well deserved! I spent hours making 12 of each missile factory!) so I wanted to try it out this time.

[hisazul]

I never bothered with Odin since it is inferior to Woden in everything except cargo capacity and docking capacity.

Never had issues with Woden tho, docking bays are placed in a great spot so if you stop there is almost no danger of fighters crashing into anything even going max speed straight(no strafing mainly) you should be fine most of the time.

But I can use terran weapons... some people just can't use them. Since I use fenrirs I also don't need as many of them. They outclass any other carrier fighter in everything. Plus they can sustain their guns indefinitely in practical scenario while "better CW options with great variety" run out of juice 5 seconds later also all that versatility goes down the drain because AI isn't a human and most of the time fails to take advantage of quirks and strengths/weaknesses of anything and everything. They are expensive and come in low quantities if you don't produce them yourself, that is about the only downside to EMPC same applies to Fenrirs... expensive... REALLY expensive and if you produce them yourself I think they are probably one of the most resource demanding ships and take a while to produce but I hardly ever lose them so... not really an issue for me.

If it's early on but you have PHQ with little resources and patience. N, despite being a weaksause m5, is a pretty good option.
Build time should be below 3 minutes.... that's REALLY fast. It requires about 30something e-cells 1 ore and 1 silicon and something else... crystals or paneling I think but also 1 and ummm... 9k? or 8k credits. All that for a drone level durability but with 4xPAC.

Tho Kyoto with 6 docked hyperions that are fully stocked with wraiths... works a whole lot better. Just saying... and Valhalla can do that even better with 10 hyperions and 50 docking bays for what ever.

[Cursed Ghost]

I've flown capitals ships of all shapes and sizes and have found all of them to be sub par for the simple face that they are all to big and to slow with maybe the exception of the Boreas which is only about the size of a large frigate which is actually quiet small for a capital ship however its turn rate still sucks which makes it sub par too dispute it's other impressive credentials

Personally wouldn’t bother with cap ships at all if you want a ship that can wipe the floor with every ship in the game with ease then get a hyperion when armed with typhoons and tornadoes the Hyperion can decimate even the mighty Osaka/Kyoto/Xenon I without braking a sweat and your shield will never drop to less then 50% if you pilot the ship well I fly the Hyperion as my personal ship I have it over tuned but even a stock model is still a powerful adversary if the target has a blind spot get in close and light up the target with plasma fire from PBGs if not or if they have flaks then hammer the target from range with typhoons and tornadoes and cigs

If you really must fly a capital ship then get a Pteranodon that ship is designed for the player to fly while its not the most powerful of capital ships the fact that you can control the main guns and therefore charge the PPCs for max damage makes a big difference and when fully equipped with PALCs you are all but immune to missile spam the biggest problem with PALCs is that there damage is subpar even when fired by the computer when fired by the player from the main battery they are completely broken you can however use this to your advantage to strip equipment from capitals you intend to board without causing massive amounts of hull damage in the process the other issue with PALCs is the massive frame rate lag caused by there animation.

if you are looking for a ship that's a bit tougher then the Hyperion then try a griffon it cant carry heavy anti capital guns but you can make up for that with missiles and with a 4000 ton cargo hold you can carry a lot of them because even fully equipped you wont used more than about 1000 tons so that is a lot of long range devastation and the griffon can carry a small wing of fighters which is easer to deal with that than the massive wings launched from m1s

if you arnt fond of missile try an aggy that can carry IBLs and when flown by the player that ship is extremely dangerous to other capitals you do however have to watch out for fighter swarms which can be dangerous to the aggy due to the way its guns are layed out the aggy has a huge blind spot above and below

the tiger is also a good choice its faster more manoeuvrable, doesn't suffer a big blind spot and the tiger can also use a few PALCs which give it protection from missile spam especially important when being spammed by m8 bombers but it is more weakly protected and it does have a weak power plant so it runs out of steam pretty quick when both flaks and IBLs are blazing the ship is also very long so you have to watch out for collisions but other wise the tiger is the most well rounded m7 there is and unlike most other m7s doesn't really suffer any serious faults save for the weak power plan and weaker shielding

the Aegir is also a solid choice that performs well in most areas the only real issue with the Aegir is a serious lack of firepower given that its strongest weapon is the corvette level M/AML which means that the Aegir will struggles to inflict enough damage to anything bigger than an m7 or even against other m7s the ship is quiet long and so you have to watch out for collisions it does however have a 9000 tone cargo hold which give the ship some options for example use it as a missile boat or maybe as a salvage ship.

it's a shame the Aegir cant dock at most stations or I'd use it as a Universe Trader which It would excel at due to its big cargo hold good speed and heavy protection which is more then sufficient to stomp pirate patrols if they are stupid enough to try it on although I'm not sure if ego ever fixed the mixing ammo based and energy based weapons which stops the ship fighting back bug