Seeking guidance: Argon Prime area and a CLS2 Monopoly in X3TC (3.2 Vanilla)

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Mordain
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Seeking guidance: Argon Prime area and a CLS2 Monopoly in X3TC (3.2 Vanilla)

Post by Mordain » Tue, 16. Feb 16, 10:56

So being a relative newbie to the game I come here with big questions. I realise I'm probably here at the wrong time. But if anybody here has any experience with monopolising resources in the AP area, I would like some advice!

Being inspired by Tims works, and having an itch for the numbers game, the whole thing looks glorious and is very appealing to me. I want to get my teeth into it but I'm perhaps being too cautious for my very own sandbox universe. I can see this taking a bit of effort so I at least want to give myself a decent start. I have started a new game, "The Arrogant Merchant", moved over to the AP area - got some vision in place and started breeding CLS Pilots on various "willy nilly" routes, moving energy, ore, cahoona's - wherever there's a cluster of complimenting fabs there's a basic CLS guy helping in some way.

Having read all of the threads several times I think I have a good feel for it, but I'm unsure how to get the ball rolling so to speak. I see recommendations that start from the basic resources like ore/silicon then moving onto wheat/cahoona's/crystals and then putting in a proper energy grid after the majority is in place. Then I see some saying start with energy as it allows a bit more 'control' but is in itself - a big job.

Looking through the various sectors, I've tallied up the stations in the region and a few things caught my eye. Silicon looks 'easy'. Three size M mines, able to support perhaps 9 fabs? Well there's around 15 fabs that use silicon so this looks good doesn't it? I could get an M size Mine of my own partnered with a cattle ranch (production turned off) and still be 12/15, have a bit of a warehouse to store and drive prices up a bit whilst still being able to treat this resource as 'scarce'?

But I know all is not what it seems. I think in 'setup' this would work well, all the mines are grouped together in adjacent sectors, there's a wealth of power in Power Circle so that never need be an issue. I could trap and fill myself up and it will be a glorious credit black hole. I see theoretical problems. All the client fabs are in the more southern portion of the area, AP/Red Light/CBSE/CBSW being the major contenders with 2-3 stations a-peice. Hauling Silicon from Power Circle to CBSE doesn't seem like the most efficient trip. Secondly I can flood these stations with Silicon but I have a terrible feeling they will fill up very quickly and then even worse, will barely use it (as at this point they're probably only reliably getting 1/4 of resources needed... and probably use Silicon quite slowly).

This is turning me away from Silicon. Worst case scenario says it will prove to be too 'unwieldy', hard to shift without some pretty smart jump-drive enabled pilots and to a point - tough to sell - as all the fabs will be far from running at full tilt. Maybe I'm being negative here. So I could get some CLS Pilots running supply duty for these stations in regard to other resources, which may help my case. But will it be the flow of credits I need to start on the next chain? Because after all that is the aim really... get some good credits flowing to enable me to get my feet in all the other doors.

So if anyone has any experience in this... what is the best first step to begin this monstrous task when you're in a new game? Is there any? Should I just bite the bullet and start trapping stuff and go with the flow, or lack thereof? Share your thoughts!

Thank you for your time.

fireanddream
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xr

Post by fireanddream » Tue, 16. Feb 16, 12:20

Well, in short, you sell low so NPC stations overstock, and then they got eaten by GoD, and then you sell high 'cause nobody else has product X any more.

Annette Barret
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Post by Annette Barret » Tue, 16. Feb 16, 12:33

Fire and Dream:

You seem to have made a pretty good start, you see opportunity's to develop a fledgling empire.

Now start thinking complexes. Antigone is good, 64 yield silicon asteroid. Ore is also good.

In this game having a huge credit balance can't hurt.

So the next thing to consider is your reputation. That is linked to your idea of what your End game might be. That is something it would be wise to consider now before you move forward.

:lol:


Annette.

Mordain
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Joined: Wed, 10. Feb 16, 13:14

Post by Mordain » Tue, 16. Feb 16, 13:10

I have a big fear I'm going to start trapping silicon and it will just haemorrhage my credits. I was wondering if anyone had any success stories in this regard.

I've already had my marriage with MK3 Traders, throw enough of them around and money is money, easy peasy. Missions and missions, easy peasy.

What I like doing is flying around in my M3 shooting all Paranid I can find. 30 fighter drones? Go on then!

A CLS economic takeover? Grit and excitement! I think when I get home I may aswell just jump right into it. When I'm dead because my cockpit is jammed full of Silicon Wafers I will make sure to have my blackbox sent over for analysis.

Annette Barret
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Post by Annette Barret » Tue, 16. Feb 16, 14:04

Mordain:
I have a big fear I'm going to start trapping silicon and it will just haemorrhage my credits. I was wondering if anyone had any success stories in this regard.
As you have just started I won't spoil things for you, lets just say you won't be trapping Silicon later on.
I've already had my marriage with MK3 Traders, throw enough of them around and money is money, easy peasy. Missions and missions, easy peasy.
UT's are a good move early game.
What I like doing is flying around in my M3 shooting all Paranid I can find. 30 fighter drones? Go on then!
There are some factories you might want from the Paranid before you get really hostile with them. That's down to you of course.
A CLS economic takeover? Grit and excitement! I think when I get home I may as well just jump right into it. When I'm dead because my cockpit is jammed full of Silicon Wafers I will make sure to have my blackbox sent over for analysis.
As Silicon is XL class I have to wonder what you are flying?

No worries have fun.

Annette.

:lol:

Mordain
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Joined: Wed, 10. Feb 16, 13:14

Post by Mordain » Tue, 16. Feb 16, 14:44

Whilst I appreciate the input Annette, I don't think you quite understand what I'm getting at.

I may have thrown you off by calling myself a 'relative newbie', but I can assure you I am not a noob. 'relative newbie' meaning I started playing in the last year when I know this game has been out longer. (The CLS threads I mentioned being dated at 2013 or thereabouts)

And CLS being the thing I wanted to talk about. I posted a new thread because whilst the Argon Prime area has been discussed in parts, I was hoping to hear of other peoples tricks and troubles in greater detail.

It would appear I need to touch up on my necromancy skills...

(And don't worry about Tractor Beams and the mighty Hub Plot, I am very aware.)
Last edited by Mordain on Tue, 16. Feb 16, 20:54, edited 1 time in total.

ancienthighway
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Post by ancienthighway » Tue, 16. Feb 16, 15:12

In monopolizing resources in the AP area, is it your intent to be the only transporter in the area or to have the only stations in the area and have the GoD remove all the NPC stations? Each takes a different approach, with being the dominant transporter being the easiest to do.

If you are playing Albion Prelude it is easy to spot transportation or ware shortages buy building a cheap station in the Argon Prime area.

I like a 2-station wheat L complex in Herron's Nebula. With two distilleries and two rimes facts you've got a ready market. Toss in the energy store and you can immediately take over supply of those four stations and distribution of the cloth rimes. Two Disco Haulers can shuttle space fuel to the trading station and the pirate base in Atreus Clouds and any others you locate in Argon or Boron space.

Silicon in the AP area is a slow sell. I've had many MORTs buy a load and then not be able to sell it all. Partial sells were difficult too. See the paragraph on Empire Mines below for why.

Which ware to start your focus on varies from game to game. You could start with any of them and eventually the initial economy works itself to where any starting ware begins to pay off. More to the point: find out what wares are holding up production in the area. I tend to focus on production in Argon Prime and Cloud Base Southeast first. Some games ore will be the hold up, other games meat steaks, and others energy. Then find the sectors that provide that ware and start setting up traders to move it. Expand to cover Red Light, Cloud Base Southwest, and Home of Light once you've got AP and CBSE chugging along.

Tim's techniques will go a long way in this process. Augment that by a dozen or so Mk3 traders set up as STs with a range of 3 from AP. Ware you miss be focusing on the primary provider sectors and primary consumer sectors will be worked by the Mk3 traders. But Mk3 traders are expensive to set up with costs approaching 1 mil credits each. If you are modded take a look at using the Economy and Supply Trader instead.

You may want to start repairing your Paranid rep. Empire Mines has a wealth of ore (1L, 4M) and silicon (1L, 1M) close to where Argon needs it. As you go to monopolize Argon production, Paranid production may fill the gap leaving you holding a bunch of ore. With good rep, you can tie up that sector too.

Mordain
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Post by Mordain » Tue, 16. Feb 16, 15:49

I aim to be the only transporter in the area, slowly pushing out all the AI traders. I'm playing x3tc with the service pack, that is all for mods.
I like a 2-station wheat L complex in Herron's Nebula. With two distilleries and two rimes facts you've got a ready market. Toss in the energy store and you can immediately take over supply of those four stations and distribution of the cloth rimes. Two Disco Haulers can shuttle space fuel to the trading station and the pirate base in Atreus Clouds and any others you locate in Argon or Boron space.
Ahah, this is the sort of advice I was looking for. A good foot hold and profit to be made! I had considered wheat somewhat, but was overwhelmed by the actual amount of facts in the surrounding sectors. I suppose I've been thinking with an "all-in" kind of mentality and thinking of trying to get everything in one big bang. One sector at a time eh?
Silicon in the AP area is a slow sell. I've had many MORTs buy a load and then not be able to sell it all. Partial sells were difficult too. See the paragraph on Empire Mines below for why.
This was my experience in other games. I wondered if buying ALL the silicone would make a difference though? If I have it all, surely I could make a mean profit...

And on Mk3 Traders I see what you're saying here too. I did kind of want a game without it though, as it's appeared in so many others. I suppose I could do similar using CAG's as distributors - funnel all the silicon to be sold from my own complex as a temporary face. Until I get other resources nailed down and i can have traps and sheds on everything? Food for thought.

From an economic standpoint Empire Mines looks good... but I read somewhere that if I have all the AP region trapped, AI traders won't pick up any sells or buys on the radio and will just turn around. If they don't I will just have to spend some time stealing the ore and the ships that enter Argon space from the south.

I don't want to be friends with everyone as that gets boring. I love the AP area ('tis where I grew up :')) and Paranid busting just makes so much sense. I spend a lot of my time looking for a cheeky dogfight inbetween administration tasks so an approach like this works great as it provides the occasional ship and a break from the 'coding'.

Mordain
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Post by Mordain » Tue, 16. Feb 16, 15:53

ancienthighway wrote:Which ware to start your focus on varies from game to game. You could start with any of them and eventually the initial economy works itself to where any starting ware begins to pay off. More to the point: find out what wares are holding up production in the area. I tend to focus on production in Argon Prime and Cloud Base Southeast first. Some games ore will be the hold up, other games meat steaks, and others energy. Then find the sectors that provide that ware and start setting up traders to move it. Expand to cover Red Light, Cloud Base Southwest, and Home of Light once you've got AP and CBSE chugging along.
But there is a definite ticket here, thank you!

ancienthighway
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Post by ancienthighway » Tue, 16. Feb 16, 16:07

Another are to consider is the Light of Heart area. There are plenty of transportation shortages which will quickly identify the ware shortages. I stick 4 ore mines into Aladna's Hill, set the prices to be dynamic, provide seed money of 500,000 credits and let the CAGs do their thing. Consumers in Legend's Home, Akeela's Beacon, Aladna Hill and Light of Heart. Ore providers in Nopileo's Memorial (3-4 M), Montalaar (1M), and Rolk's Legacy (4M) with the Borons competing for the ore in the latter two sectors.

Meat steaks production is limited to 1L and 2M in Light of Heart, 2M cattle ranches and 1M and 1L wheat farm in Montalaar. Opportunity for bio and food production and sales also.

Mordain
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Post by Mordain » Tue, 16. Feb 16, 16:26

ancienthighway wrote:Another are to consider is the Light of Heart area. There are plenty of transportation shortages which will quickly identify the ware shortages. I stick 4 ore mines into Aladna's Hill, set the prices to be dynamic, provide seed money of 500,000 credits and let the CAGs do their thing. Consumers in Legend's Home, Akeela's Beacon, Aladna Hill and Light of Heart. Ore providers in Nopileo's Memorial (3-4 M), Montalaar (1M), and Rolk's Legacy (4M) with the Borons competing for the ore in the latter two sectors.

Meat steaks production is limited to 1L and 2M in Light of Heart, 2M cattle ranches and 1M and 1L wheat farm in Montalaar. Opportunity for bio and food production and sales also.
This is great stuff, thank you very much! Whilst it may be a while before I can begin domination in this area, I shall certainly be mapping it out to see how things are going down in my universe. A few CLS seeds planted here will make for some good training methinks...

Timsup2nothin
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Post by Timsup2nothin » Tue, 16. Feb 16, 16:35

There is a key piece of information you lack.

NPC stations and player stations operate by different rules. Those silicon users that you are counting...if they also list ore as a primary resource they can, and will, use either one. If they have both in stock they will choose randomly which one to consume in each production cycle. So there are actually less users than you think there are.

That's one thing. You have also hit on another issue, which is that if you set up a reliable supply of one resource they will run out of another and stop using up your product. One key to CLS networks is that you have to think BIG. Supply ALL the resources. Make sure you haul off the product if they get full.

Good hunting!
Trapper Tim's Guide to CLS 2

On Her Majesty's Secret Service-Dead is Dead, and he is DEAD

Not a DiD, so I guess it's a DiDn't, the story of my first try at AP
Part One, in progress

HEY! AP!! That's new!!!

Mordain
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Joined: Wed, 10. Feb 16, 13:14

Post by Mordain » Tue, 16. Feb 16, 16:53

Timsup2nothin wrote:There is a key piece of information you lack.

NPC stations and player stations operate by different rules. Those silicon users that you are counting...if they also list ore as a primary resource they can, and will, use either one. If they have both in stock they will choose randomly which one to consume in each production cycle. So there are actually less users than you think there are.

That's one thing. You have also hit on another issue, which is that if you set up a reliable supply of one resource they will run out of another and stop using up your product. One key to CLS networks is that you have to think BIG. Supply ALL the resources. Make sure you haul off the product if they get full.

Good hunting!
I remember seeing most of my designated 'silicone' fabs requiring ore so that... that helps Tim, thank you. Spanner in the works.

It was my aim to find a small monopoly in which I could get my feet in the door to get the credits rolling in (As it is a fresh start and I'm just getting to the point where I have the odd ~200k hard taxi mission etc.). But much like I've seen you do, most of that profit is then put into the next resource... adding to the snowball. I was hoping not to have to grind so many missions but it would appear there's no real way of avoiding the initial start-up costs of such things... and what will ultimately be the odd stall here and there.

You just saved me a lot of head-banging though, so thanks again. ;p

ancienthighway
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Post by ancienthighway » Tue, 16. Feb 16, 17:15

I wouldn't plan on dropping off mission running any time soon, if at ever. A good trade network, even one that monopolizes transportation in select areas is not enough to feed future growth with any type of urgency. It's a slow grind.

Missions and ship hijacking are the sources of fast but sporadic money. A trade network is a steady flow of, at best, moderate growth.

Mordain
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Post by Mordain » Tue, 16. Feb 16, 17:27

Oh aye, I understand that. It's not my intention to stop doing missions completely... it's just nice to have a bit of a break sometimes from playing taxi and do other stuff. Having some kind of network ticking over in the background is just nice to have. Usually I have blocks of LT's in core area's with 2-3 jump ranges ticking over making steady profits but that approach is just a bit too easy now.

That's why I've been doing a lot of reading on the CLS stuff. It's the real shebang. Unfortunately every time I go to start something I suddenly get overwhelmed and find myself shooting some Paranid instead.

For the most part I'm glad else I'd have been here next week wondering why my silicone wasn't being used up.

Ahah.

Timsup2nothin
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Post by Timsup2nothin » Tue, 16. Feb 16, 17:56

Snowball is a good analogy.

Say you set up this silicon distribution. It works. But because it is operating "in a vacuum" it will in fact eventually just fill up with silicon and grind to a halt.

That's okay!

Next time you take a break, set up cahoona distribution. Not only will it be profitable, your existing silicon distribution network will have a serious renaissance. Then they will both fill up and grind to a halt.

That's okay too.

Just keep adding pieces when you feel the inclination and have the cash. As long as each piece that you add can make enough profit to overcome the cost of filling itself with product you will be fine...and eventually you will have everything flowing.
Trapper Tim's Guide to CLS 2

On Her Majesty's Secret Service-Dead is Dead, and he is DEAD

Not a DiD, so I guess it's a DiDn't, the story of my first try at AP
Part One, in progress

HEY! AP!! That's new!!!

Mordain
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed, 10. Feb 16, 13:14

Post by Mordain » Tue, 16. Feb 16, 19:21

More wise words! Learning some of the aspects of this game have taken a certain degree of patience. One more rank up can only be a good thing. I don't suppose there's a rush in the X Universe but GoD does strange things and it will change my nice numbers to one's maybe not so nice but I suppose that doesn't matter either. It's all part of the fun.

In time there will be a sea of green dots. Seas of Green Tim, Seas of Green.

The idea of having the network in place and some clever hub play will be very rewarding. I will have control over the resources themselves, who needs money?! And my camping in pirate alley will build a fleet of brigantines that will need to be equipped! Fun fun.

Timsup2nothin
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Post by Timsup2nothin » Tue, 16. Feb 16, 19:54

Plus, even a couple networks that are full and just doing the "topping off" of their markets will be making so many transactions that they will drive your trade rank up, which has huge impact on missions. It usually only takes me a couple game days to be responding to missions with "What? Six digits? No, you aren't worth my time. I don't even steer my ship for under a million."
Trapper Tim's Guide to CLS 2

On Her Majesty's Secret Service-Dead is Dead, and he is DEAD

Not a DiD, so I guess it's a DiDn't, the story of my first try at AP
Part One, in progress

HEY! AP!! That's new!!!

Mordain
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed, 10. Feb 16, 13:14

Post by Mordain » Tue, 16. Feb 16, 20:43

Timsup2nothin wrote:"What? Six digits? No, you aren't worth my time. I don't even steer my ship for under a million."
Glorious!

OniGanon
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Post by OniGanon » Wed, 17. Feb 16, 16:16

Never had much success with Silicon in TC/AP. Just seems to be too much competition from NPC traders. Ore and food seems to be where the money is, when it comes to transporting NPC goods. In fact, after a few ingame days when the market settles down, it seems practically required that you take over the Ore transportation trade because NPCs refuse to do it for some reason.

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