[TC] Yet another frigate question

[JoeVN09]

Hey all,

So I'm a bit of an X3 veteran, having been playing for just over a decade. However, I've never finished up all of Terran Conflict's plots and I have very little experience helming capital ships, preferring to chicken out and hide in something that can run away if a combat situation goes scruffin-shaped. I've come back to TC to rectify this and am in the market for a M7 frigate, primarily for the purpose of finishing up the Final Fury plot but hopefully for general use as a personal ship.

The Deimos is pretty, and looks great on paper. I like the shielding, the IBL broadside and the possibility of putting PSG in the top and bottom turrets as fighter defence. The hangar's nice for docking a few useful ships, too. What I don't know is if 62000MJ of laser energy can keep up with that crazy weapon set up. I'd hate to spend 60 million Cr outfitting a frigate that is then impotent after thirty seconds. And not that it's an issue against insta-hit Kyons, but it's a bit of a fatty as frigates go and not much weapons fire will be going past it.

Alternatively, the Shrike hasn't quite got the shielding the Deimos has but isn't dependent on laser energy thanks to Gauss, is almost as fast and has a smaller overall profile. The prospect of IBL up front makes me think twice as well.

I'd love to hear your experiences of these ships, and some of the loadouts you use. Specifically, what can the Deimos handle before it gets ahead of itself? Do either of them have the clout to get in and out of the Kha'ak sectors?

[shanrak]

None of the M7s have the juice for long term engagements. The shrike is the only one who can sort of hang around because of the gauss.

For the final mission I would recommend a m2. Much better shielding and fire power.

If you still want a m7 the Agamemnon is great for hit and run tactics. It has 12 forward firing IBLs and can mount PSGs all around for fighters. It's also got the same shielding as the Deimos.

The only downside is no hangar and you have to liberate one from the paranids.

Most of the m7s in the game have their good attributes. The only ones I wouldn't consider is probably the thresher(I hate it's tail thing that gets caught on everything) and the yaki m7.

[fireanddream]

If you think about it, in TC m6 and below run out of juice much quicker than m7 (hell I had to put IRE in hyperion's rear turret to maintain 8 frontal CIG, lol), I see m7 as an "one-man army" ship, especially in AP where our beloved personal m6 can do nothing against local military plus RRF. They are great personal general destruction ships if overturned with pandora crates.

Carrack, akurei, cerberus, astraeus hauler, yokohama and ageir are the escorts which can't fight capital ships even other m7s. In TC I'd say yokohama is the best of them.

Thresher, shrike, tiger, panther, deimos, agamemnon and Q can stand up to just about anything. In a nut shell, thresher is the glass cannon/sniper with 10 manually fired PPC but its energy only let it fire twice, shrike is a poor man's power house with big cargo bay and hanger, tiger is an arrow with great frontal power and perfect coverage, panther is tiger -8 main guns, +6 frontal turrets, +more flak all around, +a monstrous hanger bay. Deimos is a well shielded PSG spammer, agamemnon is deimos -hanger bay and up/down turret coverage, but +frontal IBL and more guns one the sides. I'm sure you're familiar with the Q.

M7 in the second group are all viable with maybe thresher reserved only for special occasions. I've flew tiger, panther, deimos and agamemnon as play ship across several saves and my best experience goes with the agamemnon. PSG in TC is very, very, VERY OP since it just flat out DESTROY shields like no tomorrow, after the shield's down you can ram your enemies (in TC you'll lose 7% of your 6gj shield for ramming a shield down 100% hull osaka, lol) or just keep firing PSG. Either way in TC a deimos/aggy can kill an osaka in 10 seconds.

Khaak? Pufff, thresher and Q maybe the only two that have problem handling khaak. Khaak's kyon emitters do nothing more than inducing panic for player. I once found an aran right on top of a hive but was too stubborn to let it go, in the end spent two hours repairing the aran and ramming those respawned khaak with my ares (no missile).

Edit:
Forgot about the griffon, which (regrettably) belongs to group 1 but is the best of them besides yokohama.

[shanrak]

Speaking of AP, surprisingly my favorite m7 has been the griffon sentinel. Yes it lacks firepower but it's so tiny you'll never be hit either. Add some engine tunings and it's speed is decent. Hammerhead missiles are also much easier to ge to take out the bigger targets. I've been farming them in circle of light/black hole sun during a particular plot.

So far the biggest hammerhead drop I've seen is 29+24 from a blown up RRF Titan.

Now if only it could dock a TS or TP like the guppy and ariadne...

[fireanddream]

Speaking of AP, surprisingly my favorite m7 has been the griffon sentinel. Yes it lacks firepower but it's so tiny you'll never be hit either. Add some engine tunings and it's speed is decent. Hammerhead missiles are also much easier to ge to take out the bigger targets. I've been farming them in circle of light/black hole sun during a particular plot.

So far the biggest hammerhead drop I've seen is 29+24 from a blown up RRF Titan.

Now if only it could dock a TS or TP like the guppy and ariadne...

The griffon in AP has been my ionD specialist... Routine capping of kyoto becomes:
1) drop its shield with aggamemnon
2) fry its software with griffon
3) panicking, tanking SSC and checking target's cargo every 2 seconds
4) actual boarding operation

[ancienthighway]

Since the Griffon is the reward for Final Fury, it's not available. Even if it was, It's an M6 with FFA and a hanger, but it can't dock at stations.

If I was to take an M7 into the final battle, it would be a missile frigate. Any will do. Jump in a resupply ship and maybe a couple anti fighter M6s/M7s.

That being said, I've always done it in a Boreas.

[pjknibbs]

The Shrike is my favourite M7. Equip it with EBC on the front guns and Gauss on the side turrets and it'll tackle any ship in the game one-on-one, without needing to worry much about energy. It's also got a big cargo hold, can carry fighters, has that small profile making it easier to avoid incoming fire, and is surprisingly reasonably priced for a Teladi ship. Only downside is that it's a bit on the slow side.

[JoeVN09]

Oh I'll be getting some use out of the Griffon when it comes around.

M7Ms are a little out of my range for now as even if I cap one I'll need to set up some missile complexes to support it long-term.

I do remember you being a Shrike man, PJ. It really doesn't have a downside as far as my needs go; low speed isn't a huge issue when the swarm of tetrahedrons going after you can do 200m/s anyway. Seems to be the best at emulating a light destroyer role and therefore possibly the better long-run investment.

I AM still tempted by PSG turrets. Maybe I'll buy a Shrike and have a go at stealing an Aggy. That should be fun as a one-man band wherever it goes. And that Tiger looks like a sensuous prospect too... wow, this IS hard.

[Honved]

I finished FF in a Paranid Diemos, armed almost entirely with PSGs, after repeated failures with other ships. It was almost easy. The thing is a 360 degree murder machine, and the PSGs actually draw less power than most of the other big-gun configurations you could throw on it. The best part is its secondary weapon against capital ships: ramming. Drive straight at the enemy Frigate, PSGs blazing to reduce its shields, and ram. You've got enough shield energy to take it out, and a lot more. Rinse and repeat.

Nice ship: handles well, is reasonably fast, carries a pair of fighters (personal M3 and an M5 to chase down dropped missiles after a fight), mounts insane shields, and packs PSGs. What more could you ask for? OK, maybe a bit more cargo space. That's why I generally have a TL following me about one sector behind, in case I need resupply, a place to park bailed fighters, etc. Just don't mount the PSGs in friendly territory or near friendly fleets, or else they won't be friendly for long.....

[Triaxx2]

Ultimately you're going to want to play with them all.

All of them have their uses. Some are better suited to some tasks than others.

The Carrack is a curious ship. It seems bad at first, until you learn how to fly it. Instead of trying to fly it like a fighter type ship, you need fly it like a gunship. It's very small, and well suited to an asymmetrical loadout. Put your heavy guns on one side, and flak on the other. Engage your target with those heavy guns, and make wide circles around it. It'll have issues hitting you if you adjust speed up and down as you go, and you can eventually chew through even an M2 if you can avoid the majority of it's fire. And any fighters that turn up to ruin your day get chewed up by the flak on the outside.

The Cerberus is far more useful supporting fighters with it's FAA. Give it six Falcon Haulers set to protect it and it'll make a fine mince out of anything that doesn't have capitals with it. (Or bombers but that goes without saying.) As a player ship you can engage other M7's, but only if you've learned to dodge fire.

The Thresher can very much be a glass cannon, but it can also use those enormous wings as a capital sized fly swatter. Hold Q and spin around to gib fighters with every blow.

There's a special place in my heart for the Shrike. It has no problem hanging in a fight with any other M7 with it's Gauss Cannons, and if you can fully arm it with 8xIBL, it has enough energy to punch a hole in the shields on an M2 and finish it with Gauss Cannon fire. Alternately, my preferred loadout is 2 IBL and 6 ISR. The IBL provide a nice heavy punch, while the ISR means you're not wasting overkill trying to shoot M6's with IBL. You can kill M2 with this load, but you want to turn off your ISR so the IBL have all the power.

The Tiger is a very offensive ship, you want to rush in, spray them with IBL and then dash away before they can kill you. Some missiles will help as you approach, keeping the turrets distracted. The Tiger can go toe to toe with most M7's, but I have found some minor issues dealing with M2's.

The Panther is very similar to the Tiger, but I count all those fighters it carries as part of it's armament. Being able to spray out 32 M3's or M4's means it can put an awful lot of fire on a target, either with lots of HEPT, or a tremendous outpouring of missiles, plus the capital guns.

The Deimos isn't my favorite ship, but it's got exceptional PSG coverage. Nothing gets close as long as it keeps spraying those things around. Of course attempting to use them in an area with friendlies will quickly result in your reputation bottoming out.

The Agamemnon is one I like even less than the Deimos, not least of the reasons being it's so hard to see out of from the cockpit. Lots of PSG is again the order of the day, but I've found an all EBC loadout is crazy effective for swatting swarms of fighters.

The Q is simultaneously very dangerous, and moderately over ratted. It can attack head on and win, but it can also benefit from a Carrack style a symmetrical loadout. PPC on one side, flak on the other. It's much faster than a Carrack, but it's also a much more massive target. Meaning you absolutely want to practice dodging.

If you have your heart set on PSG, the Deimos is the way to go. I personally don't recommend Paranid ships, but that's just me.

[shanrak]

Just to add a little more after Triaxx's excellent post.

The carrack can mount the most (4) plasma beam cannons on its broadside and those are really fun to play with. Just be really careful when engaging multiple ships because of your weak shielding.

Also don't underestimate the Yokohama. It's super small so you can dodge easily, had 5x1gj shields. And if you get enough wraith missiles it's lack of firepower is not a huge deal.

You can camp in a bigger ship's blind spot and shoot them all day long.

[Honved]

Triaxx2 made several good points.

The Thresher is a one-trick pony with those PPCs, but it's definitely a nice trick. Problem is, the pathetic weapon generators means you get one or two shots and then you've got to run for it, because you're not firing again for a long time. The wings are a nightmare to deal with in routine flight, but nice as "fly swatters" (that's about all it can do against fighters). I hate flying the thing, but it's glorious when you can sit back and annihilate an under-shielded M2 at range.

The Cerberus is about the easiest M7 to fly, in my opinion, and makes for an awesome anti-fighter platform. Problem is, it's anti-capital firepower is somewhere between inadequate and a joke.

The Tiger (and Panther, to a lesser degree) fly like oversized fighters, and are best used against capital ships in the same hit-and-run style as with a fighter, while dodging inbound fire in the same manner. The Panther's frontal guns are turreted, which is both a plus and a minus in my book, and it carries an impressive number of fighters, otherwise it's similar to the Tiger.

I've flown a Q, and it's not a bad ride, but didn't have it long enough to fully outfit it with an optimal loadout, and can't really judge just how effective or ineffective it could be in a combat situation.

As I indicated, the Diemos felt like "cheat mode" in some situations where I was able to utilize the PSGs, while it's somewhat lackluster with the normal weapons configurations, but still tough as nails (or more like the hammer driving those nails), thanks to the powerful shields. Never flew the Aggy, and it doesn't sound like I need to.

In my opinion, the Teladi capital ships are too slow, even if they pack excellent firepower and the ability to sustain it. I can just about read a book while it crosses the sector.

I've boarded and taken Carracks, but sold them almost immediately because of "legal" issues (there were often race fleets hunting them, even after they changed hands, and I didn't want to risk a war with one of the races at that point).

[pjknibbs]

In my opinion, the Teladi capital ships are too slow, even if they pack excellent firepower and the ability to sustain it. I can just about read a book while it crosses the sector.

The big ones, yes, but while I said the Shrike was a bit slow, it's not *that* much slower than the run-of-the-mill for M7s...96m/s for a Shrike compared to 107m/s for a Deimos, for instance. Even the Tiger and Panther, which are fairly nippy as M7s go, top out at 121m/s.

[Triaxx2]

And of course there's always the Turbo Booster. Strap that on and speed up even the slowest capitals. That said, Teladi Caps are very much the slow and steady kind of combat unit. A slow, steady advance with big guns, and under the heaviest shields available.

The Cerberus can fight capitals, but you need missiles for it. Tornadoes or Cyclones.

There's one ship, which isn't technically an M7, but should be flown as one. The Galleon is technically an M1, but it's very small and has a surprisingly nimble profile. But it fights like an M7. You can duck fire pathetically easily in in it. Plus you can kill M2's with it by kiting them with the rear PPC mounts. It's not fast, but again, Turbo Booster. I spent quite a long time flying one of these, and it was more or less unstoppable.

[pref]

Panther is my fav, did not meet a quest it wasn't good enuogh for.

Imo profile size and speed is more important then shields for personally controlled ships.
And it has IBLs afterall, so it can do enough damage to take out big ships.

[birdtable]

The Shrike .... gives us older guys time to think... Loved that ship.

[Cursed Ghost]

For dealing with there fighters and corvettes your best bet is a Tiger equipped with flak the reason I say a tiger is because you need the speed as Beta Kyons out range flak and you don’t want to be leaving Beta kyon wielding cervets/m3 chomping at your shields so you need the speed to be able to close to a point where your flak can kill there ships and being that the tiger is quick for a m7 it means that you can run if you take to much fire

don’t bother trying to take there m2s though because you don’t have enough weapons power in a Tiger to sustain IBL fire for long enough plus you don’t have the shielding to sit there chomping at there m2s while there Gamma Kyons fry you

the one exception to this is if you carry lots of tornado missiles these are extremely nasty when the shield are down and will crush the hull of even the most heavily armoured capital ships in a matter of seconds especially true in TC as hulls are much weaker but you have to be aware that these need to be used at close range since they are dumbfire but they are an extremely fast way to kill capital ships when combined with IBL fire

Typhoon spam is always effective especially if used at close range so that there turrets don’t have time to shoot down your missiles so that’s well worth a go if you can find a ship with a sizable cargo bay and typhoon compatibility a shrike comes to mind as being one that has a big cargo hold and when using missile spam speed is less important as typhoons have like a 75km range but you do need to be aware that beams are very efficient antimissile weapons so missile spam needs to be done at close range to be effective typhoon spam is much less logistically problematic as typhoons are quiet common unlike hammers and flails

the Aggy with 12 front mounted PSG is nasty as hell and will fry the crap out of there m2s and anything else that is stupid enough to get in the way in TC they are very deadly but in AP they don’t inflict hull damage fast enough and are largely useless if the target has a strong hull like xenon capitals but against anything smaller then an m2 they are devastating however be aware that the range on PSG is only around 1.5km which is barley long enough to engage there scouts and the ship is very slow as well which means you will likely get pecked to death by there fighters that’s what I found

ultimately your best bet would probably be a Boreas in TC the Boreas is an absolute powerhouse which will decimate all the Osaka and Tyr are also good choices

for the Tyr what I would do is put PSP in the front and flak everywhere else this will help to off set the undersized cargo bay that the Tyr has in TC you loose a lot by doing that but PSPs out range Gamma Kyons anyway so all you need to is park out of range of there m2s and then cut engines and then let the front turrets snipe them then when you have there attention simply throw the ship in to full reverse to slow the speed at which there ships can close and give your turrets more time to shoot by the time they are close enough to shoot they will be almost dead or you could just fly an Osaka with a full load out of PSPs and flak and simply own everything in sight

Then of course we have weapons of mass destruction M7Ms !!! a single m7m can dominate an entire sector a fleet of m7ms are completely untouchable no matter how many ships the enemy have so long as you can keep your ships supplied with ordinance m7ms really are god mode or as close as you are going to get to god mode in a none **modified** game simply fill then up and set there turrets to attack fighters / attack capitals and let them do there thing as efficient as kyons are at shooting down missile they cant handle the volume of ordinance coming down on there heads when multiple m7ms open up no ship can

[JoeVN09]

Cursed Ghost do you ever use full stops?

I was all set to buy a Shrike when I came across a Deimos trying (and failing) to navigate the asteroid field in Savage Spur. Long story short, I capped that instead and put my efforts into equipping it with something useful. With whatever IBLs I could find in the side turrets and PSG in the others, the thing has been laughably good at handling the huge fighter and corvette groups of the mid-level FF missions. It's pretty, and handles nicely, and isn't as chunky as I thought it was going to be.

Still don't like its chances much against lots of Kha'ak capital ships, or in fleet actions. It's already pissed off a couple of Teladi bombers that got far closer than they needed to. Since I've saved about 30 million credits by capping instead of buying, I'm thinking I'll skip the Shrike for now and save for something heavier. The Akuma is my kind of ship, but I'm not sure I can justify paying for it when the Boreas is cheaper and objectively superior. Might be a cap job when I can find the crew for it.

Would be nice to own a destroyer that doesn't look like Godzilla stepped on the Pompidou Centre.

[ancienthighway]

One nice thing about the final mission in OFF is you don't fight it alone. If you have the patience, your allies will do most of the heavy work.

[Triaxx2]

I don't particularly like the look of the Boreas. I've had great fun with the Akuma in one game. There's just something about it that screams 'I look AWESOME'.

I also like the Brigantine.