Trump

Post by **Alan Phipps** » Fri, 19. Jan 18, 18:14

Let's all discuss the thread topic and not each other please.

kohlrak · Post by **kohlrak** » Fri, 19. Jan 18, 18:52

Bishop149 wrote:
kohlrak wrote:More nuanced, yes. More efficient, no. Not by any stretch of imagination (for example, "eat out" is 2 syllables, with 2 meanings, which are "eat somewhere other than home" [7 syllables, though i'm sure you could think of a 5 syllable expression] and a 6 syllable expression, which i'm relatively sure is used almost exclusively by people over the age of 10). There's a reason why children prefer "simple words" (Phrasal verbs). Honestly, I think the lack of education in such vocabulary and focus on "adult vocabulary" is where language learning tends to be lacking. Kids learn those constructions because it allows to stretch a limited vocabulary. Often times, second language learners neither need the nuance, or are too inexperienced to understand the nuance regardless. This is why you can see 10 year students of a given language understand all these big and complex words, but end up completely unable to communicate with anyone without a college degree. It's sad, really.
I think we have different definitions of efficiency but I think both are valid.
Yours appears to be use the lest syllables to covey a specific set of information.
What I was getting at was conveying more information with a similar number of words (which, granted, might contain more syllables but not always). In this sense nuance and efficiency are kind of the same thing.

So, more meaning fewer words, as opposed to more meaning fewer syllables. Given how the human mind works, I can get behind that.

To use your example
"Eat out" - Refers to eating somewhere other than where you live. It may also refer to, as you imply, a sex act. . . . . a distinction hopefully made apparent from the context but you might be surprised how often it isn't.

Honestly, i think that's intentional.

"Dine out" - Implies a reasonably refined eating experience, probably a restaurant.
"Eat Al fresco" - Specifically outdoors and usually implies a level of sophistication but can be combined with dine above for greater clarity.

There are likely many more variations, your example may well have the virtue of being the shortest and simplest but it also conveys the least information, and you really don't have to add much in terms of syllables to add substantial additional information.
To return to "try" vs "endeavour", 1 syllable vs 3 but for those extra 2 you get both a meaning of "try hard" and a more nebulous sense of adventure associated with the action. I'm sure there are better examples, probably of reams of extra info being added via just a single additional syllable.

But, how often do we really need or desire that extra meaning? There inlies yet another problem with excessive use, and possibly the reason nuance gets lost: people tend to use such words where the added meaning isn't even desired, for the sole purpose of sounding more educated and winning an argument.

Finally can I just say that I am happy to have initiated a nice discussion on language via a throwaway criticism of the US President.

Frankly, the latter is most of the topic, unfortunately. I wish the topic would go into more of this, but each of us are too invested in our political stances and beliefs to really take a hard look at what's going on.

Grim Lock wrote:
Masterbagger wrote:I doubt any other nation has access to junk food like we do. It takes effort to shop for healthy food here. Even a carnivore like me has to check the labels for sugar and carbs hidden in that delicious jimmy dean sausage.
Well this didn't just "accidentally happen" for us, our government (due in part to them having a heavy hand in our health-insurance ) They realised years ago, that one way of keeping costs down is to make sure the people insured actually have good access to healthy food etc. So it's been a focal point for years now. (sure it also means that because we get so old in a healthy manner now, that our pension-funds didn't take into account they'd have to pay people a lot longer, so they don't have enough money to cover for that in the future had we not raised the minum age for people dependant on those pensions (it's never simple is it!) (obviously for those with real money this is not an issue, they can rely on private/comercial companies to provide them with their pension, but for joe average it kinda sucks, i might have to work till im 69!) But then again, i get what i pay for.

My point beeing, if the US citizen wants to live longer in good health, having your goverment help with good food, good education, good healthcare and a proper pension will serve you a lot better than focusing so much on foreign threats, and maybe your average lifespan would go up by two years aswell.

And this is also why i don't understand this isolationist attitude touted by many Trump supporters, there's so much you could pick and choose from other western succesfull countries to make your own better, i know we sure did look at other countries (including the US) But in the case of Trump it's pretty much "If i didn't think of it it's not great or fantastic or huge, so not for us"

And well he might have ended Obamacare, but is there better cheaper alternative now? i don't see it, has he done anything to stop the decline of of your educational system, Hell no, is healthy food ever gonna a focus under him? Ill bet a nice sum of money it never will be.

This is all good in theory, but DHL can have a package to Lewistown, PA from 大阪, Japan in about 2 days. USPS can get a similar package from Texas to Lewistown, PA in 2 weeks, loosing the package at the capitol of Harrisburg, PA, and then taking another 2 weeks to get it back to Lewistown, PA. IIRC, DHL was also much, much cheaper. UPS and Fedex seem to be halfway between the two. Point is, churches and nonprofits have been doing welfare for years before the federal government and have been doing a much, much more competent job. Public education falls behind private education. Given the track record, it generally seems that government is too bureaucratic to even tie their shoes effectively. From what I can tell, the general population is doing much, much more to try to fix the food issue on their own, and i'm seeing less added sugar in OJ and things like that. Then again, when i worked at a certain factory, I remember us violating organic regulations and shipping something that was meant to be organic, but was in violtion, despite government officials being right there at all hours of processing.

Alan Phipps wrote:Let's all discuss the thread topic and not each other please.

You're going to be saying this for a while: politics is a thing where people get heated. Where people get heated, the arguments start falling apart. When people get despirate, because they're invested, they become lower caliber. As they become lower caliber, they tend to get more personal.

Hierarchy of Disagreement

Expanded version

The author isn't a shmuck, either.

EDIT: Attempting to fix the wikipedia link.

EDIT2: Fixed. %28 for left parenthesis, %29 for right parenthesis.

Grim Lock · Post by **Grim Lock** » Fri, 19. Jan 18, 19:13

kohlrak wrote:This is all good in theory, but DHL can have a package to Lewistown, PA from 大阪, Japan in about 2 days. USPS can get a similar package from Texas to Lewistown, PA in 2 weeks, loosing the package at the capitol of Harrisburg, PA, and then taking another 2 weeks to get it back to Lewistown, PA. IIRC, DHL was also much, much cheaper. UPS and Fedex seem to be halfway between the two. Point is, churches and nonprofits have been doing welfare for years before the federal government and have been doing a much, much more competent job. Public education falls behind private education. Given the track record, it generally seems that government is too bureaucratic to even tie their shoes effectively. From what I can tell, the general population is doing much, much more to try to fix the food issue on their own, and i'm seeing less added sugar in OJ and things like that. Then again, when i worked at a certain factory, I remember us violating organic regulations and shipping something that was meant to be organic, but was in violtion, despite government officials being right there at all hours of processing.

Lol yeah and this is because your government is in the pocket of the big corporations and not in the pocket of the people, and so they keep sending in their puppets to do a horrible job so they can keep doing the same old bs over and over again. And since you keep falling for that trap it's a self fulfilling prophecy. And to fix this problem you've sent in the biggest corporate muppet ever.

kohlrak · Post by **kohlrak** » Fri, 19. Jan 18, 19:18

Grim Lock wrote:
kohlrak wrote:This is all good in theory, but DHL can have a package to Lewistown, PA from 大阪, Japan in about 2 days. USPS can get a similar package from Texas to Lewistown, PA in 2 weeks, loosing the package at the capitol of Harrisburg, PA, and then taking another 2 weeks to get it back to Lewistown, PA. IIRC, DHL was also much, much cheaper. UPS and Fedex seem to be halfway between the two. Point is, churches and nonprofits have been doing welfare for years before the federal government and have been doing a much, much more competent job. Public education falls behind private education. Given the track record, it generally seems that government is too bureaucratic to even tie their shoes effectively. From what I can tell, the general population is doing much, much more to try to fix the food issue on their own, and i'm seeing less added sugar in OJ and things like that. Then again, when i worked at a certain factory, I remember us violating organic regulations and shipping something that was meant to be organic, but was in violtion, despite government officials being right there at all hours of processing.
Lol yeah and this is because your government is in the pocket of the big corporations and not in the pocket of the people, and so they keep sending in their puppets to do a horrible job so they can keep doing the same old bs over and over again. And since you keep falling for that trap it's a self fulfilling prophecy.

That's the thing that gets to me, though, right? People say that Trump is the big business candidate when Hillary was the wallstreet candidate. From what i can tell, you have corporations on both sides of the isle. I noticed some of the most monopoly loving companies tend to be on the left: Comcast, Google, Microsoft, most of all cable news, etc. That said, the right isn't without it's backers, either. There's only 2 ways to get the two to separate: socialist route (the one we're taking it seems), which rather gets government into big business instead, or smaller government (less lucrative to try to invest in a government that won't write laws in your favor). I want to try something new: getting government out of everything.

EDIT: That said, i still don't know how that explains that every government program fails in the face of a privatized one. You do have a point that business and government are allies, but that doesn't explain what we're seeing. It does explain the housing crisis, low wages, and push towards single payer, though.

EDIT2: I've heard from construction workers that if you get government contracts, rather than private contracts, that it's standard policy to milk it.

Grim Lock · Post by **Grim Lock** » Fri, 19. Jan 18, 19:28

kohlrak wrote:That said, i still don't know how that explains that every government program fails in the face of a privatized one. You do have a point that business and government are allies, but that doesn't explain what we're seeing. It does explain the housing crisis, low wages, and push towards single payer, though.

This is simply not true, not even your country, and definitly not in mine, there's plenty of stuff a proper government can do way better while using private companies., instead of beeing used by them.

Just FYI, cause you might be under the impression our healthcare system is a purely government run thing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHeZJS4K6J0 it's an oldie i know, but our system hasn't changed much since.
Our pension system is structured pretty much allong the same principals.

kohlrak · Post by **kohlrak** » Fri, 19. Jan 18, 19:36

Grim Lock wrote:
kohlrak wrote:That said, i still don't know how that explains that every government program fails in the face of a privatized one. You do have a point that business and government are allies, but that doesn't explain what we're seeing. It does explain the housing crisis, low wages, and push towards single payer, though.
This is simply not true, not even your country, and definitly not in mine, there's plenty of stuff a proper government can do way better while using private companies., instead of beeing used by them.

Just FYI, cause you might be under the impression our healthcare system is a purely government run thing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHeZJS4K6J0 it's an oldie i know, but our system hasn't changed much since.
Our pension system is structured pretty much allong the same principals.

How about something other than healthcare, which seems to be enough for canadians to come to the US over? Can you name something else? Military and police, i'd say, doesn't count, given that is kind of the big purpose of having a government to begin with.

Grim Lock · Post by **Grim Lock** » Fri, 19. Jan 18, 20:12

kohlrak wrote:
Grim Lock wrote:
kohlrak wrote:That said, i still don't know how that explains that every government program fails in the face of a privatized one. You do have a point that business and government are allies, but that doesn't explain what we're seeing. It does explain the housing crisis, low wages, and push towards single payer, though.
This is simply not true, not even your country, and definitly not in mine, there's plenty of stuff a proper government can do way better while using private companies., instead of beeing used by them.

Just FYI, cause you might be under the impression our healthcare system is a purely government run thing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHeZJS4K6J0 it's an oldie i know, but our system hasn't changed much since.
Our pension system is structured pretty much allong the same principals.
How about something other than healthcare, which seems to be enough for canadians to come to the US over? Can you name something else? Military and police, i'd say, doesn't count, given that is kind of the big purpose of having a government to begin with.

Sure infra-structure, education, public transport, low-cost social housing, care for the homeless and addicted (all these things are beeing done with more or less the same principals, private companies regulated by the gov), But i don't really care for this what about this and that, when i get stopped by the police for speeding, i don't go, but whatabout that murderer that went free last year, strangely the cop won't care about that in that moment.

And rich canadians might come to the US for the superprivate mega expensive on the bleeding edge of inovation rare few and far between companies, but the joe average in canada is probably better of in canada than in the US. Same goes for education, having e few of the best schools in the world in your country, doesn't say shit about the average level of education, hell our country is full of americans studying over here because for the same price they get a much better education since every university is at least of an internationally recognized quality while still being very affordable, thanks tooooooo government regulations.

Post by **Nanook** » Fri, 19. Jan 18, 20:59

kohlrak wrote:...
Alan Phipps wrote:Let's all discuss the thread topic and not each other please.
You're going to be saying this for a while: politics is a thing where people get heated. Where people get heated, the arguments start falling apart. When people get despirate, because they're invested, they become lower caliber. As they become lower caliber, they tend to get more personal....

No, he won't. Either offending posts will get removed from the thread and locked (along with a formal warning to the offenders), or the entire thread will get locked. Personal attacks are not permitted on these forums, whatever the subject matter. Is that clear enough for you?

And before you reply, remember that discussions of moderator actions are not allowed on the open forum and will result in a formal warning, at the very least.

muppetts · Post by **muppetts** » Sat, 20. Jan 18, 10:55

https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/tru ... 04238.html

He clearly has dementia.

pjknibbs · Post by **pjknibbs** » Sat, 20. Jan 18, 11:12

muppetts wrote:https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/tru ... 04238.html

He clearly has dementia.

Because you never accidentally say the wrong word when speaking aloud, you mean?

Let's be honest, the real news in that article is that he got it wrong in thinking some states allow ninth month abortions, not that he accidentally said "births" when he meant "abortions". Funny as it may be to mock him for the occasional mis-speak or what-have-you, I think it only dilutes the case against him.

Grim Lock · Post by **Grim Lock** » Sat, 20. Jan 18, 11:33

What is very Trumpian that annoys the crap out of me, a discussion or scandal can't even reach a descent conclusion before the next one hits and completely snows over the last one. Very frustrating, it's almost like it's deliberate: "oh dear, this isn't going the direction i wanted, lets start a bigger fire over there to distract from the burning building over here"

Post by **UniTrader** » Sat, 20. Jan 18, 11:48

pjknibbs wrote:Because you never accidentally say the wrong word when speaking aloud, you mean?

Trump would never admit that or take back his word, even for minor things (remember "covfefe"?) - so everything he says has to be taken as if he meant it that way... except it was more than 3 months ago, then it never happened

BugMeister · Post by **BugMeister** » Sat, 20. Jan 18, 13:41

- it's open season on mocking the lunatic..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woFddINztDs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8QMqNU9ShA

and a nice slush fund to pay for their lawyers..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BO7S1fkUplA

mrbadger · Post by **mrbadger** » Sat, 20. Jan 18, 14:04

pjknibbs wrote:
Because you never accidentally say the wrong word when speaking aloud, you mean?

I do in lectures all the time.

It's not so bad in front of thirty/forty students. When it was in front of 300 students it could be pretty awkward, depending on what I said.

I can relate to him just ignoring any fuss about him using the wrong word, because it's just a meaningless and petty way to get attention by whoever it is that's making a big deal of it.

Grim Lock · Post by **Grim Lock** » Sat, 20. Jan 18, 14:04

BugMeister wrote:- it's open season on mocking the lunatic..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=woFddINztDs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u8QMqNU9ShA

and a nice slush fund to pay for their lawyers..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BO7S1fkUplA

Alltough the vid's are very funny, i'd stay as far away from MSNBC as i'd stay away from FOX to form my opinions, i watch both of them, but mostly to stay informed on how both of them are clouded by their political bias and how their base thinks.

It is funny how CNN is credited by Trump as being the biggest fake news corp and not MSNBC, i guess facts disturb him more than left wing bias.

edit: I will admit that msnbc is more about giving a left wing interpretation of what at least are actual facts, whereas the worst fox shows just give false facts and then proceed to put a right wing interpretation on top of those false facts.

BugMeister · Post by **BugMeister** » Sat, 20. Jan 18, 14:09

thank you for your advice
I trust you won't mind if I ignore it completely..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8Vtdel4ZmY

- bit of a credibility gap here, methinks..

Grim Lock · Post by **Grim Lock** » Sat, 20. Jan 18, 14:26

BugMeister wrote:thank you for your advice
I trust you won't mind if I ignore it completely..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8Vtdel4ZmY

- bit of a credibility gap here, methinks..

Your free to do whatever, however I might as that an uncompromising dismissive mindset doesn't help to solve anything. And mocking for the sake of mocking is great fun, and puts a smile on my face daily to, however, also doesn't help solve anything or bring us closer to a fair compromise.

One of the biggest problems of the current global mindset, we lock ourselves in our own bubble and dismiss anything from outside that bubble so easily. Facts be damned.

For American standards i would be considered Left wing, that's ok, however, i indeed wish disccusions in politics (forum threads not so much so don't take it personally) should be about different solutions (left or right leaning) for facts! not made up bull as seems to be the predominent trend currently (it's always been a problem, but today more than ever it seems.)

RegisterMe · Post by **RegisterMe** » Sat, 20. Jan 18, 16:03

Grim Lock I agree with you that by US standards MSNBC has a left wing slant to it. But that's relatively easy to account for / adjust for.

What I really, really don't understand is how the crap peddled by the likes of Fox, or even worse people like Alex Jones, doesn't get taken to pieces by the rest of the media, or academia (or, in a more European vein, by regulators). Likewise the apparent lack of facts or real analysis peddled by Fox / Breitbart et al should put people off. But for some reason it doesn't.....

./scratches head

Grim Lock · Post by **Grim Lock** » Sat, 20. Jan 18, 16:21

RegisterMe wrote:Grim Lock I agree with you that by US standards MSNBC has a left wing slant to it. But that's relatively easy to account for / adjust for.

What I really, really don't understand is how the crap peddled by the likes of Fox, or even worse people like Alex Jones, doesn't get taken to pieces by the rest of the media, or academia (or, in a more European vein, by regulators). Likewise the apparent lack of facts or real analysis peddled by Fox / Breitbart et al should put people off. But for some reason it doesn't.....

./scratches head

Yeah breitbart, fox and friends, sean hanity etc, i also really don't have a very satisfactury answer to that, we don't really have that over here. On the other hand (yeah im going there hahaha) we don't have an overwelming percentage of the people going what i believe is more important that what is factually proven. It's the weakness of a society were religion is so freakin important, they're used to accepting bs with no factual basis.

clakclak · Post by **clakclak** » Sat, 20. Jan 18, 16:35

RegisterMe wrote:Grim Lock I agree with you that by US standards MSNBC has a left wing slant to it. But that's relatively easy to account for / adjust for.

What I really, really don't understand is how the crap peddled by the likes of Fox, or even worse people like Alex Jones, doesn't get taken to pieces by the rest of the media, or academia (or, in a more European vein, by regulators). Likewise the apparent lack of facts or real analysis peddled by Fox / Breitbart et al should put people off. But for some reason it doesn't.....

./scratches head

At least for Alex Jones I think the answer is easy.

He tells you that everyone around you is delusional and you are the only person right in the head. You don't believe him because he makes sense, but because you can feel superior. He tells you that everyone else is a liar and knows nothing about what is really goind on, so if anyone challenges you, than you simply call them a sheeply or shill and move on.

egosoft.com

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