Trump

Masterbagger · Post by **Masterbagger** » Sat, 24. Feb 18, 18:07

Usenko wrote:
Wait, what?

Did someone hear a weird trumpeting noise?

Is there an elephant in this room?

The fact that . . if the shooter didn't have a gun, he couldn't have done this?

What law would have stopped him? At this point the gun controllers just want to do something symbolic so they can feel better. They don't want a solution. They just want gun control.

Morkonan · Post by **Morkonan** » Sat, 24. Feb 18, 18:39

To avoid a derail, I just want to sum up a reply concerning the whole "gun issue" and then move on.

We've banned assault weapons before. It had no effect. A total personal firearm ban will never happen. Further, this issue is a political "shiny thing" that politicians use to gain supporters and money. They have no interest in actually doing anything other than winning their position for bragging rights, even if their position is not a solution to any problem.

Every system put in place failed across the board. I don't mean just things to help identify possible "school shooters" but all those things we have put in place to help identify anyone who may be dangerous or to help those with mental or emotional problems. It's disgusting how many times people were warned, how many times agencies didn't or couldn't act, how many times it was evident this child was serious about their desire to kill with nobody responding, etc... For all those failures, we, perhaps, "got what we deserved" as a society.

IMO, there's a cultural and social issue here that has nothing to do with "guns." Nobody gives a darn... Parents and guardians don't give a darn as long as little Johnny isn't bothering them. Let "teh internetz" raise their children, they seem to be saying. Meanwhile, their kids dive into an echo-chamber that expresses little reasonable moral or ethical value.

We, or they, since I don't count myself among them, don't care to do anything because what needs to be done is "too hard." Caring for people, responding to other's needs, our society moving to help those with mental and emotional problems... All of these things and, yes, simple moral and ethical "values" are simply ignored by far too many people.

Why didn't kids storm their schools with weapons and shoot everyone in the '60s? 50's? 40's? 30's? The ability was there, but the "willingness to harm" others wasn't. Why? It certainly wasn't because of the introduction of a gun. There's something else going on and too many people don't want to admit it.

RegisterMe wrote:And there goes Gates - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43164325

This is a pretty big development. Gates is one of the closest people to the center of the spokes on the wheel of this investigation. He will now have to basically sit naked in front of all the investigators and "tell all." He'll also have to testify, if asked, and what he knows about everyone involved can't be understated - He was there, all over the place, and he's now a witness for the prosecution.

The one very big question about Gates and his plea deal

While an illuminating article, there's something that's even more important than "Trump" in all of this.

Trump Campaign aide Rick Gates pleads...

Notice that there are elected officials indicated as having received "bribes." There are further implications that there was a concerted effort, which one could call a "Conspiracy", to induce policy-makers to favor certain policies regarding Ukraine et al (Russia) and that many of these may have received dirty money...

Gates is now a witness for the prosecution and was intimately involved in all of this. He could "name names in court" of current and former elected officials involved in receiving "campaign contributions" or even direct bribes given to them in order to influence their opinion and, possibly, their vote on key issues.

If taken to its fullest extent, prosecuting this case could be the most effective "draining of the swamp" seen in modern times in the U.S. Gates's testimony could make this happen.

And, if the momentum is evident, Manafort would be wise to climb on board with a plea deal of his own, rather than sitting around and waiting, apparently, for Trump to give him a Presidential Pardon. (Some believe that his actions indicate he may be expecting a Pardon if things really get bad for him. But, nobody with any sense thinks Trump is going to pardon him. Then again, Trump isn't known with being very reserved in his actions. If he perceives a greater threat, he just might Pardon Manafort and then... the poop would hit the fan.)

To sum: The Gates plea cranks up the seriousness of this investigation to "almost eleven." It's not quite there, yet, but it's getting close to being "bigger than expected."

Hank001 · Post by **Hank001** » Sat, 24. Feb 18, 19:03

Good job Morkonan! Though you know where this is going to lead just as much as my generation did when G. Gordon Liddy then H. R. Halderman were indicted. They'll implicate Trump, Trump will fire the special prosecutor. Since Trump is in the era of Clinton where a President can thumb his nose at impeachment, he'll bull through it, hand out pardons and see it as a plot to smear His Holiness The Donald. That is until the plot twist when someone in Moscow lets loose with what Putin has on him. Some Sparrow in a hotel room set up worse than the "Big Brother House". If this was a plotline of a book I'd pan it for being two dimensional and predictable.

Morkonan · Post by **Morkonan** » Sat, 24. Feb 18, 19:28

Hank001 wrote:Good job Morkonan! Though you know where this is going to lead just as much as my generation did when G. Gordon Liddy then H. R. Halderman were indicted. They'll implicate Trump, Trump will fire the special prosecutor. Since Trump is in the era of Clinton where a President can thumb his nose at impeachment, he'll bull through it, hand out pardons and see it as a plot to smear His Holiness The Donald. That is until the plot twist when someone in Moscow lets loose with what Putin has on him. Some Sparrow in a hotel room set up worse than the "Big Brother House". If this was a plotline of a book I'd pan it for being two dimensional and predictable.

More likely, the impetus to fire Mueller will start from within those Congresspeople who may have ties with the power-brokering that Gates and Manafort were part of. Trump may then seek to use this support to legitimize his firing of Mueller, claiming that he "can't remain deaf to the righteous outcry of respected representatives of The People...." or some such.

If any of that actually happens, of course. We could see a significant indictment before that moment which has serious implications for Trump and before he is able to pre-emptively strike. If that happens and there's a direct connection with all of this and Trump's campaign "on the books" in terms of an indictment for someone intimately involved with Trump, then all bets are off as to what will happen.

I'm starting to believe that if there is any connection with Trump's campaign and Russian efforts to undermine the election process, Trump isn't smart enough to have orchestrated it... If such a thing occurred, I think he would certainly have known and willingly participated, but it would have been organized and managed by much more intelligent people and he would have just been a willing puppet in the whole process.

Chips · Post by **Chips** » Sat, 24. Feb 18, 19:29

Morkonan wrote:We've banned assault weapons before. It had no effect. A total personal firearm ban will never happen.

Really? Do you mean the 10 year ban on new, but not existing weapons. Also the ban which had loopholes? And the one when it was lifted saw an uptick in shootings with assault weapons again?

Maybe have an actual ban, not an embargo on buying new models.

Why didn't kids storm their schools with weapons and shoot everyone in the '60s? 50's? 40's? 30's? The ability was there, but the "willingness to harm" others wasn't. Why? It certainly wasn't because of the introduction of a gun. There's something else going on and too many people don't want to admit it.

They did... just not with assault weapons. The number of shooting incidents in 30's - 70's are numerous, just perhaps not as lethal as today's incidents, but they did happen.

Here's one of my favourite series about US Gun Control. The reality is that a big section of your country just don't care what happens to other people. Simples. How can you ever have a rational discussion when the default stance of a large political part of the nation is "kill them before they kill others" - aka - arm people so they can "defend" themselves by killing. Faultless logic

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVuspKSjfgA

RegisterMe · Post by **RegisterMe** » Sat, 24. Feb 18, 21:32

Mork the second part of your post, about Trump, I completely agree with. The first part of your post, about guns (et al), I completely disagree with.

It is not an insoluble problem. Going faster than the speed of light is an insoluble problem. Reversing gravity is an insoluble problem. Getting more energy out of something than has been put in is an insoluble problem.

The issue of firearms in the US is a difficult problem. No argument there. It is not insoluble.

When enough people care that the cost of the current consensus interpretation of the 2nd Amendment DIRECTLY RESULTS IN THE BLOOD OF THEIR CHILDREN things might change.

I read your comment about "don't forget that they are children and unformed as yet etc" a few posts back with interest. I also read an interesting article in this week's Economist that said that:-

a) Sandyhook was pre-social media
b) this was the largest school massacre post Sandyhook and post social media
c) they grew up learning "duck and cover", or "run tell fight hide" or whatever other garbage you have to teach children in the US these days (and by the way, we don't have to teach our kids that anywhere else in the world).
d) and eighteen odd still died
e) it'll be interesting to see if things change as the world turns....

There is literally a "creation the result of gun" myth in the US. And yes, I am deliberately eliding religion and history there.

This makes complete sense if you're a Marine inductee. It makes absolutely no ****** sense if you're watching this with a class of four year olds.

The sooner the gun myth is disabused the sooner you can stop putting children in coffins.

Observe · Post by **Observe** » Sat, 24. Feb 18, 21:39

Masterbagger wrote:What law would have stopped him? At this point the gun controllers just want to do something symbolic so they can feel better. They don't want a solution. They just want gun control.

Because of your total inability to see past the barrel of a gun, you are a self-fulfilling prophesy. You will see more killings and even more reasons (in your mind) to aggravate the problem into an endless downward spiral of social destruction.

If you have the courage that you seem to profess having, throw away your guns and set your eyes on a future American society that has the freedom to just say no to guns.

Hank001 · Post by **Hank001** » Sat, 24. Feb 18, 21:59

A voice of reason? From the inside it would be R. Lee Ermy ( The drill instructor of first clip) breaking down the door, arresting the household for keeping livestock as domestic pets (because the city council passed an ordinance without public notice or debate) hauling the family off to the local meatpackers for microwavable bacon.

I have niece who got her teaching degree in 2006 and after finding out what a teacher's life was all about went to work in childcare on cruise ships. A wise decision on her part as the pay was better and now I'm thinking she was possibly safer there at the time than in the classroom. She works now teaching English as a second language, but has firm opinions about the raw deals teachers here are given.

Post by **Santi** » Sat, 24. Feb 18, 23:31

Morkonan wrote:
RegisterMe wrote:And there goes Gates - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-43164325
This is a pretty big development. Gates is one of the closest people to the center of the spokes on the wheel of this investigation. He will now have to basically sit naked in front of all the investigators and "tell all." He'll also have to testify, if asked, and what he knows about everyone involved can't be understated - He was there, all over the place, and he's now a witness for the prosecution.

The one very big question about Gates and his plea deal

While an illuminating article, there's something that's even more important than "Trump" in all of this.

Trump Campaign aide Rick Gates pleads...

Simply no, Gates is being prosecuted for money crimes, and as the article linked by Registerme says:

"There are no allegations that either man colluded with Russia to influence the outcome of the 2016 presidential election, which is the main thrust of the Department of Justice investigation."

It is there, hiding among paragraphs of text that will prompt you to think otherwise.

Hank001 · Post by **Hank001** » Sat, 24. Feb 18, 23:42

There's alot to be read between the lines here. Right about that. In D.C. they (They being Dept. of Justice, FBI, Sp Prosc. Office) walking on eggshells since President thinks he's still on "The Apprentice" and fires anyone that displeases him.
A good friend of mine says the joke going around "The Beltway" is that the Presidential Seal should now have the latin motto under it: "indignatio principis mors est."
(The wrath of the prince is death)

Post by **UniTrader** » Sun, 25. Feb 18, 00:05

RegisterMe wrote:c) they grew up learning "duck and cover", or "run tell fight hide" or whatever other garbage you have to teach children in the US these days (and by the way, we don't have to teach our kids that » anywhere else in the world). «

maybe except for some Middle Eastern and African Countries (aka "Shithole Countries") where people openly carry Arms in Public..

Cpt.Jericho · Post by **Cpt.Jericho** » Sun, 25. Feb 18, 00:12

Considering the mind of the guy in charge the seal should say "Romanes Eunt Domus"

Hank001 · Post by **Hank001** » Sun, 25. Feb 18, 00:13

I don't know if things changed, but in Cheyenne Wyoming in 1979-80 when I was stationed there it was perfectly legal to carry a gun anywhere as long as it wasn't concealed. That didn't go for us G.I.'s stationed there mind you. Other than the base cops, it was a no-no. Which was a switch with an irony that tickles me to this day.

Masterbagger · Post by **Masterbagger** » Sun, 25. Feb 18, 01:44

Observe wrote:
Masterbagger wrote:What law would have stopped him? At this point the gun controllers just want to do something symbolic so they can feel better. They don't want a solution. They just want gun control.
Because of your total inability to see past the barrel of a gun, you are a self-fulfilling prophesy. You will see more killings and even more reasons (in your mind) to aggravate the problem into an endless downward spiral of social destruction.

If you have the courage that you seem to profess having, throw away your guns and set your eyes on a future American society that has the freedom to just say no to guns.

You already have the freedom to say no to guns. This is about you attacking my freedom to say yes. Save your moralizing. You live under the protection of people with guns just like the rest of us.

Hank001 · Post by **Hank001** » Sun, 25. Feb 18, 01:47

"Save my moralizing?" Fantastic. Better than amoralizing I say. At least I got a few.

RegisterMe · Post by **RegisterMe** » Sun, 25. Feb 18, 03:42

UniTrader wrote:
RegisterMe wrote:c) they grew up learning "duck and cover", or "run tell fight hide" or whatever other garbage you have to teach children in the US these days (and by the way, we don't have to teach our kids that » anywhere else in the world). «
maybe except for some Middle Eastern and African Countries (aka "Shithole Countries") where people openly carry Arms in Public..

So, umm, you're equating the US with those, umm, "shithole" countries"? ermm.

Hank001 · Post by **Hank001** » Sun, 25. Feb 18, 03:58

Well I've been to about every ....hole country there is and we're not there yet, but there seems to be concerted efforts to get us there. Where the thread derailed and went into the hot button topic of gun control was unfortunate. I'd like to back to insulting to thread topic.

His parroting Mister NRA, his utter glibness with that "ice cream" analogy... On topic he's a

and if it wasn't so serious I'd

So add a thread in guns and... Well forget it, nobody in their right mind oould want to moderate it.

Post by **Terre** » Sun, 25. Feb 18, 10:43

This thread has lasted longer than thought possible.

Can it now return to the subject of the meanderings and mutterings of Donald Trump.

BugMeister · Post by **BugMeister** » Sun, 25. Feb 18, 12:12

Hank001 wrote:There's alot to be read between the lines here. Right about that. In D.C. they (They being Dept. of Justice, FBI, Sp Prosc. Office) walking on eggshells since President thinks he's still on "The Apprentice" and fires anyone that displeases him.
A good friend of mine says the joke going around "The Beltway" is that the Presidential Seal should now have the latin motto under it: "indignatio principis mors est."
(The wrath of the prince is death)

- tell that to Charles 1st, he'd laugh his head off..!!

Chips · Post by **Chips** » Sun, 25. Feb 18, 23:07

Terre wrote:Can it now return to the subject of the meanderings and mutterings of Donald Trump.

Of course...

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa- ... SKCN1G90PB

Donald Trump is considering raising the age of certain types of gun ownership in the US, but of course, the NRA is dead against that.

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