Trump

[felter]

I would pay to see that happen.

[clakclak]

And it went beyond just heresaying, isn't there is a town somewhere in your country built a 12ft tall wall to separate the refugee from the resident? [...]
I couldn't find anything about a town building a wall against refugees, but it is certainly possiable.

Found it, in some place around Munich at a place called Neuperlach Süd.

I think the wall is really, really bad for example your argument. The wall in Neuperlach Süd wasn't build because there were problems with any refugees. It was build a YEAR before any refugees ever came to Neuperlach Süd, because some residents said that they were afraid that the refugee home would be noisy. It isn't a wall intended to "separate" anyone like you claim it is, you can simply walk around it. Just take a look at it: https://www.tz.de/bilder/2016/11/07/694 ... u1CKef.jpg

But hey, anything that feeds the narrative I guess.

[Bishop149]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6cFUQDLGbY

This is the most blatant propaganda I have seen for a while.

I mean it staggers the mind that people believe this crap - and they just buy into the antiTrump narrative unquestionably

I’m curious what it is in that clip that you object to so strongly. As I read it it makes 3 main points.
1) That separating children from their parents is not explicitly “the law”
2) The the bible passage used by Sessions was used extensively in support of slavery.
3) That the centres at which large numbers of migrant children are detained qualify as concentration camps

1) I’m no legal expert but as far as I can tell this is true. This policy has found a way to modify the situation at the border so that existing law can be applied to remove children from their parents. I think calling this an “interpretation of the law” or a “policy” is entirely fair. It could be accurately phrased far more harshly, e.g. a perversion of the law.
2) As far as I can tell this is true, and very widely known to be so.
3) I suspect this is the bee in you bonnet. That term is perfectly accurate as by all dictionary definitions. It is however an emotive term as it summons up the notion of genocide, but it is perfectly possible to have “concentration camps” that don’t involve mass murder or forced labour.
Interesting note, dictionary definitions and discussions of this term are careful to avoid the term “criminals” or make comparisons to prisons. This is because “crime” is defined by the state and by that definition almost every inmate of every concentration camp in history has been “technically” a “criminal”. . . because of course the state found inventive ways to give them that label. So they define them by other qualities of the inmates / their conditions.

Anyway on a related note here’s the Daily Shows propaganda off between Fox News and North Korea’s State TV
https://twitter.com/thedailyshow/status ... 47136?s=21

[Morkonan]

...I think the wall is really, really bad for example your argument. The wall in Neuperlach Süd wasn't build because there were problems with any refugees. It was build a YEAR before any refugees ever came to Neuperlach Süd, because some residents said that they were afraid that the refugee home would be noisy. It isn't a wall intended to "separate" anyone like you claim it is, you can simply walk around it. Just take a look at it: https://www.tz.de/bilder/2016/11/07/694 ... u1CKef.jpg

But hey, anything that feeds the narrative I guess.

I found this more detailed pic of the material being used.

Edge pic

What is that stuff? It looks like "baled rocks." Is that what it is? Soundproofing walls are common in the US near interstates and high-traffic areas, but they use different materials. Sometimes, it's concrete pre-fabricated panels, at others it's metal panels. Since they often butt up against residential areas, they're usually made to look "nice."

Those bales look... horrendous. I assume they used bales because it's intended to just be temporary.

[felter]

...I think the wall is really, really bad for example your argument. The wall in Neuperlach Süd wasn't build because there were problems with any refugees. It was build a YEAR before any refugees ever came to Neuperlach Süd, because some residents said that they were afraid that the refugee home would be noisy. It isn't a wall intended to "separate" anyone like you claim it is, you can simply walk around it. Just take a look at it: https://www.tz.de/bilder/2016/11/07/694 ... u1CKef.jpg

But hey, anything that feeds the narrative I guess.

I found this more detailed pic of the material being used.

Edge pic

What is that stuff? It looks like "baled rocks." Is that what it is? Soundproofing walls are common in the US near interstates and high-traffic areas, but they use different materials. Sometimes, it's concrete pre-fabricated panels, at others it's metal panels. Since they often butt up against residential areas, they're usually made to look "nice."

Those bales look... horrendous. I assume they used bales because it's intended to just be temporary.

We use something similar here but not for soundproofing. I have a river at the bottom of the garden and where it washes away parts of the land, we put down metal cages and fill them with rocks to control the path of the river and it works, keeps the river going the way we want and the land does not get washed away.

[clakclak]

...I think the wall is really, really bad for example your argument. The wall in Neuperlach Süd wasn't build because there were problems with any refugees. It was build a YEAR before any refugees ever came to Neuperlach Süd, because some residents said that they were afraid that the refugee home would be noisy. It isn't a wall intended to "separate" anyone like you claim it is, you can simply walk around it. Just take a look at it: https://www.tz.de/bilder/2016/11/07/694 ... u1CKef.jpg

But hey, anything that feeds the narrative I guess.

I found this more detailed pic of the material being used.

Edge pic

What is that stuff? It looks like "baled rocks." Is that what it is? Soundproofing walls are common in the US near interstates and high-traffic areas, but they use different materials. Sometimes, it's concrete pre-fabricated panels, at others it's metal panels. Since they often butt up against residential areas, they're usually made to look "nice."

Those bales look... horrendous. I assume they used bales because it's intended to just be temporary.

They are not uncommon in Germany (at least in NRW). As far as I know they are not temporary.

[Hank001]

In the "Really didn't think it through" department.

Trump could sign all the Executive Orders he wants about the mess he created just to shake the tree, rattle cages, chest thump and generally try and advantage of the Republican party's fear of what might happen in November by keeping their mouths shut about the lunitic in office. He really pushed Humpty Dumpty off the wall and now expects his million minions to make it all better. Seem that all the king's horsemen and all the king's men are having a massive WTF moment. They swiped all these kids and NOW how do give them back? What do we do with them IF we can't find the parent?

The US bureaucracy needs implementation orders. At the start of this mess all anyone got amounted to orders from the top to "make it happen." Again the orders from the top are now "Make it UNhappen".

Thus leaving cracks in the system as gaping as gaping as the Grand Canyon which you just know thousands are going to fall through.

I think this Immigration Fiasco has only gone to show Trump that announcing his intentions to the press before hand, like he did with that "yard party" the day after his return from Singapore is a bad idea. First he opens up on how much he likes the veneration Kim gets in his country and found out how far that flies with the news media. So he's got to hit harder on the "fake news" bit so the idiots won't start believing the truth.

Trump: They have the balls to question me on minutiae like how things are suppose to work! Hell if I know or care! If I say things are fantastic I'm the greatest then they BY GOD better fall in line! But they didn't and now eveybody's on about the shitshow the plan to force legislation out of those sheep urned into! If they'd just build the damn wall and then we could just shoot anyone that crawls over or tunnels under and it's problem solved! They just don't get it! @$!#.

Which has me wonder if make his next spectical will be a bit more subtle? Probably not.

[Mightysword]

But hey, anything that feeds the narrative I guess.

Most certainly! Why, your post is such a splendid example of it.

Putting things in context, this wall was erected during the peak of the refugee crisis. Germany had just finished their grand standing talk, the negative reports started coming in, and emotional was high on both side. With Trump touting his own 'wall', this 'wall' certainly wasn't looked up kindly, at least not by the pro-refugee 'narrative'. Things like "such a horrible things to do, unbelievably tasteless, sending the wrong message, promoting segregation, this wall is higher than even the Berlin wall ...etc..." you know, the usual stuff people throw around. And funny thing, what you just typed is exactly the reasons the people who wanted the wall put up on their defense, like "this wall is only this high to achieve sound proof, so that the new sit for 150 refugee building next door doesn't devalue their property ...etc...".

And ... do you notice, how the table is turned here? You're basically using the same exact counter argument to counter the very same message that it was used to counter in the beginning. Isn't it amazing, the exact same word, same reason, just depending on who saying it and under the context, they're being used to counter the vary same argument it was made in defense. Such irony is befitting of modern society don't you think. After all it's something that happens everyday, all days

We can sit here all days trying to argue the technicality and semantic behind such as you can walk around the wall, it was built before the refugee was there (note, it was built because they know the refugee gonna be right next door) ...etc... but I think it would be unnecessary. What it stands for, what message it sent, the only people we gonna fool is ourselves.

[clakclak]

But hey, anything that feeds the narrative I guess.

Most certainly! Why, your post is such a splendid example of it.
[...]

The difference is that my post is based on sources and yours is based on nothing.

[Hank001]

@ clakclak

Ever consider the point might have been to draw the
topic off the subject of Trump, his administration and it's
policies that someone clearly objects with?

Good retort though

[clakclak]

@ clakclak

Ever consider the point might have been to draw the
topic off the subject of Trump, his administration and it's
policies that someone clearly objects with?

Good retort though

Good point.

@Mightysword

If you want to continue to this, I am more than open to do so. Just make a new thread about refugee politics in Germany/Europe.

[Morkonan]

We use something similar here but not for soundproofing. I have a river at the bottom of the garden and where it washes away parts of the land, we put down metal cages and fill them with rocks to control the path of the river and it works, keeps the river going the way we want and the land does not get washed away.

Ah... From what I can recall, some areas in Germany have a lot of issues with water control and the like. It might have been a case of expediency, where the cheapest, most abundant, construction materials were used. Those would certainly be serviceable, double-stacked like that. They might even be better than a solid barrier for people on both sides, since they'd tend to deflect/disperse sound rather than reflect it like a lot of barriers do. (Lots of air channels and uneven surfaces for sound to bounce around, get absorbed, low re-transmission, etc..)

[Mightysword]

The difference is that my post is based on sources and yours is based on nothing.

No not really, I simply don't go look for them since it's been a while. I actually followed this development back then pretty closely myself. You know out of curiosity, all this grandstanding of welcoming refugee than suddenly you heard about a wall poping up somewhere, so you gotta see what the fuss is all about. Like I said, there were plenty of noise around the project, and they were said midly. What you said I already know, and don't dispute them in term of what they are, but like you said, the devil is in the interpretation. Seeing you said you haven't aware of this until now, I somehow doubt you have read about it as much as I did. Not mean to be a competition, just a polite retort at your jab.


But I like to stand behind what I said, so when people press for source I will comply. Assuming by source you mean just linking a few article back then sure I have some.

https://www.merkur.de/lokales/muenchen/ ... 37101.html

Notice the caption: Der absolute Wahnsinn“: Die Mauer in Neuperlach ist höher als die, die einst Deutschland teilte.

The district Deputy went on and said something like: "When we talk about integration of refugees, I imagined something different. It just makes me feel bad."

How about a twitter feed to re-live all the aforementioned noise?

https://twitter.com/OnlineMagazin/statu ... 8750104576


And of course, this's not even including a significant volume of buzz from English speaking media at the time, which again I'm not inclined to go and look them all up again. But if you're genuinely interest about what people talk back then, feel free to research.

If you want to continue to this, I am more than open to do so. Just make a new thread about refugee politics in Germany/Europe.

That would be unnecessary, that discuss had its moment, now it had passed. It wasn't my intention to actually debate about that. This is just a bit of me entertaining your curiosity. Like I said, I'm only presenting the political calculus of this situation. And on that regard, what we see 'actually' happen and the stand of most EC's government currently had adopted since speak for itself of the impact, regardless of what part of the populate may think otherwise.

[Morkonan]

... Just make a new thread about refugee politics in Germany/Europe.

I'd be interested in reading how forum goers in the EU feel about the situation, now, perhaps contrasting how they may have felt about it when all this stuff started. We had a thread on that, didn't we? The news on that subject has tapered off a bit, here in the States, so we don't get much information on how the EU feels about it these days.

I think the danger in past discussions was partly due to the rise of some nationalistic notions and such. It's still important, though, and I wonder how strong those movements have gotten in the past few years.

Anyway, just curious. It is for a different thread, though.

[Skism]

But hey, anything that feeds the narrative I guess.

Most certainly! Why, your post is such a splendid example of it.
[...]

The difference is that my post is based on sources and yours is based on nothing.

The mainstream media does nothing but feed its own narrative with lies

Take this example:

http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2018/06/ ... ys-father/

The modern left is insane it is the only real explanation at this point - the vile hate and lies that pour out from attacks on Melina Trump (some of which still have not been apologized for) to the daily lies on subjects such as Immigration, transgenderism Islam and the right.

The bias of the mainstream narrative is obvious to those with eyes to see.

[Hank001]

skism touted:

The mainstream media does nothing but feed its own narrative with lies

Man if you're dragging out Breitbart as "real" ANYTHING then
calling the LEFT crazy is pot calling the kettle black.

Basically if THEY say the picture is faked you can put your money
on that NOT being the case other that what the they want the people hanging way out on the right wing to BELIEVE.

Bet you think FOX News is too leftist too eh?

In other words anything in the news that doesn't fit your biases is either "fake news" or leftist elitist propaganda eh?

[BugMeister]

seems almost as though Trump's bent attitude to life depends on debt..
he is under the impression that, if he owes you something, he has power over you..
corruption comes naturally to one who is familiar with the abuse of power..
Trump is beyond making any kind of excuse for his horribly inept administration, he's well aware of it..

- and, his continued attempts to "appear" competent are proof that - if he's anything at all, he's totally corrupt..

[Hank001]

@ Bugmeister

Really the first thing that really had me
thinking we were in deep & dark trouble
with Trump was when he said something like
when he WASN'T in debt he couldn't sleep nights.
It made him worry too much.

LIKE HUH ???

My buds here are laughing because when I read that out
to them one said "With the national debit what it is now
then he was surprised Trump could drag his ass out of bed."



Stargazers. Guess it gives us two things Trump ain't got.
Perspective and insolmnia.

[Skism]

skism touted:

The mainstream media does nothing but feed its own narrative with lies

Man if you're dragging out Breitbart as "real" ANYTHING then
calling the LEFT crazy is pot calling the kettle black.

Basically if THEY say the picture is faked you can put your money
on that NOT being the case other that what the they want the people hanging way out on the right wing to BELIEVE.

Bet you think FOX News is too leftist too eh?

In other words anything in the news that doesn't fit your biases is either "fake news" or leftist elitist propaganda eh?

Theres no talking sense to those who won't see it.

You denigrate Brietbart as a source but cannot show what is wrong with it - and did not refute the argument or the evidence shown

http://www.breitbart.com/texas/2018/06/ ... ys-father/

Fallacy - Damning the source

"ad hominem, sometimes called the genetic fallacy) attempts to refute an argument by indicting the source of the argument, rather than the substance of the argument itself."

How ironic that a left wing Californian university supports my argument in this case

You did not address the substance of my argument; which is that the migrant girl story - was fake.

This shows that the mainstream media clearly has a bias judging from the number of character attacks on Trump

[Hank001]

Frankly what I believe is Steve Bannon and Breitart are responsible for the far right's success at foisting Donald J. Trump on the American public as some sort of snake oil cure for every problem in Washington DC from immigration to male pattern baldness.

If that @$!# rag said rain was wet I'd fact check it.

Their "Deep State" nonsense is so far out there that
I doubt in visual range of this telescope I'm using.

So believe what you want to believe. If Breitbart tells you the instructions on sa bottle of asprin are a secret code then
it's your right to buy into it I guess.