Trump

RegisterMe · Post by **RegisterMe** » Sat, 9. Dec 17, 02:31

This week's The Economist had a nice idea. Trump could have announced that the US was moving it's Israel embassy to Jerusalem.... at the same time as announcing that it would create an embassy for a Palestinian state in East Jerusalem.

Symbolic, even handed, new and disruptive without offending all Arab peoples and many Muslims.

Masterbagger · Post by **Masterbagger** » Sat, 9. Dec 17, 03:01

Observe wrote:
mrbadger wrote:So again, what is his reason for this? I just don't get it, does he want the middle east on fire again? Is that his game plan?
Trump hates Muslims it's that simple. Or at least he knows the bulk of his die-hard supporters hate Muslims, which is enough for him. He made very clear from the beginning of his campaign that we are at war with Islam. He knows full well that the whole region is a powder-keg and that his decision to move the embassy will cause the 'enemy' to raise their heads - which Trump will be very happy to see cut off.

There is a very big difference between hating muslims and hating terrorists who happen to be muslim. Attacking Trump has become so important to some that I don't think this difference is properly recognized.

RegisterMe · Post by **RegisterMe** » Sat, 9. Dec 17, 03:14

I think most of those attacking Trump are well aware of the difference. Whilst I worry that some of those who support Trump are not.

And no, not pointing fingers at anybody in this thread, or anybody at all in particular.

Masterbagger · Post by **Masterbagger** » Sat, 9. Dec 17, 04:19

The idea that Trump hates muslims isn't coming from his supporters. It's a convenient smear that ignores the problems with terrorism. We can't let virtue signalling become so important that people die from our own inaction out of fear of offending.

RegisterMe · Post by **RegisterMe** » Sat, 9. Dec 17, 04:33

Masterbagger wrote:The idea that Trump hates muslims isn't coming from his supporters. It's a convenient smear that ignores the problems with terrorism. We can't let virtue signalling become so important that people die from our own inaction out of fear of offending.

Deal with the guns in the hands of the public then? Because by all possible measures US citizens kill far, far, far more US citizens than terrorists could even dream of.

Same old perceived risk v actual risk issue, and the politicisation thereof.

Some idiot with a truck runs over eight odd people. Ban all trucks? Nope.
Some idiot with a few rifles fitted with bump stocks shoots sixty odd people. Ban guns? Nope. Ban bump stocks? Nope.
Some random terrorist manages to evade FBI / CIA / NSA / state police and their neighbours and, ermm, not do much? Yep, slap a travel ban on tens of millions of innocent people.

And yes, I know, it's easy saying it with a keyboard when I am not a US citizen, and yes, I know, 9/11. But still, proportionate measures to real risks? That's what this should be about.

It's playing to his base, and their fears, again.

Masterbagger · Post by **Masterbagger** » Sat, 9. Dec 17, 05:55

RegisterMe wrote:
Masterbagger wrote:The idea that Trump hates muslims isn't coming from his supporters. It's a convenient smear that ignores the problems with terrorism. We can't let virtue signalling become so important that people die from our own inaction out of fear of offending.
Deal with the guns in the hands of the public then? Because by all possible measures US citizens kill far, far, far more US citizens than terrorists could even dream of.

Same old perceived risk v actual risk issue, and the politicisation thereof.

Some idiot with a truck runs over eight odd people. Ban all trucks? Nope.
Some idiot with a few rifles fitted with bump stocks shoots sixty odd people. Ban guns? Nope. Ban bump stocks? Nope.
Some random terrorist manages to evade FBI / CIA / NSA / state police and their neighbours and, ermm, not do much? Yep, slap a travel ban on tens of millions of innocent people.

And yes, I know, it's easy saying it with a keyboard when I am not a US citizen, and yes, I know, 9/11. But still, proportionate measures to real risks? That's what this should be about.

It's playing to his base, and their fears, again.

Your pivot from islamic terror to American guns raises the same problems. The solution is stopping a select a group of people while respecting the absolute right of the rest. Trump is taking measures directed toward preventing terrorism. You either choose or are led to interpret that as an attack on islam as whole.

Avis · Post by **Avis** » Sat, 9. Dec 17, 08:29

Ketraar wrote:Is there link to said quote though?

Not saying I dont trust you or anything, but you (or anyone) adding quoting marks to text you typed, is not what I regard as citation.

MFG

Ketraar

Then google the quote, but seeing as I'm being generous.

Transcript: Obama's Speech at AIPAC
&
ABC News quotes from previous presidents

And there is a video of the speech on C-Span

Chips · Post by **Chips** » Sat, 9. Dec 17, 13:54

Masterbagger wrote:The idea that Trump hates muslims isn't coming from his supporters.

Quite right, quite right.

It comes directly from the President's fingers, or his retweeting anti-muslim hate videos.

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/11/29/polit ... index.html

I mean, it was from Trump's own mouth that he called for blocking terrorists entering the USA wasn't it?

Trump's call for a "total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States" during the 2016 campaign.

Because all terrorists are muslims. Or is it all muslims are terrorists? I forget which he believes - do you know which way around that should be said?

Additionally, 80% of post 9/11 terrorism offences in the US being done by American citizens, with the majority being right wing extremists...

BugMeister · Post by **BugMeister** » Sat, 9. Dec 17, 16:22

Trump regards women as terrorists..
That's why Judge Dredd Moore is so popular..
Even Flynn was shouting "Lock Her Up" at Hillary

- I knew you'd say that..
- I am the law..

Post by **Ketraar** » Sat, 9. Dec 17, 17:10

Avis wrote:Then google the quote, but seeing as I'm being generous

Erm sorry you posted a quote without ref, its not generous to link to what YOU claim to be true.

Also you misrepresented the quote

It is non-negotiable. The Palestinians need a state that is contiguous and cohesive, and that allows them to prosper — but any agreement with the Palestinian people must preserve Israel's identity as a Jewish state, with secure, recognized and defensible borders. Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided.

Note that this speech is addressing a possible solution, not actual action. That the US defends the Capital of Israel to be Jerusalem, is nothing new, its about 20 years old, but it was never ACTED on it in the hopes to get an agreement. So you claiming "Obama did it too" is mild version of #whataboutism.

MFG

Ketraar

fiksal · Post by **fiksal** » Sat, 9. Dec 17, 17:23

Chips wrote:
Trump's call for a "total and complete shutdown of Muslims entering the United States" during the 2016 campaign.
Because all terrorists are muslims. Or is it all muslims are terrorists? I forget which he believes - do you know which way around that should be said?

I wouldnt think it's surprise to anyone how anti muslim Trump is. After all that's people who voted for him (all or some) wanted to hear anyways - for Trump to say "how it is". Is Trump not living up to the promise all the sudden?

Chips wrote: Additionally, 80% of post 9/11 terrorism offences in the US being done by American citizens, with the majority being right wing extremists...

And there's that indeed. Time to profile American whites

Ketraar wrote:
Avis wrote:Then google the quote, but seeing as I'm being generous
Erm sorry you posted a quote without ref, its not generous to link to what YOU claim to be true.

Also you misrepresented the quote
It is non-negotiable. The Palestinians need a state that is contiguous and cohesive, and that allows them to prosper — but any agreement with the Palestinian people must preserve Israel's identity as a Jewish state, with secure, recognized and defensible borders. Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided.
Note that this speech is addressing a possible solution, not actual action. That the US defends the Capital of Israel to be Jerusalem, is nothing new, its about 20 years old, but it was never ACTED on it in the hopes to get an agreement. So you claiming "Obama did it too" is mild version of #whataboutism.

MFG

Ketraar

I missed that, was that the claim that "Obama did too"? I dont recall Obama officially stating this the same way Trump did. And pasting the quote into Google I found the same thing that Ketraar did.

So, quote is misquoted?

Masterbagger · Post by **Masterbagger** » Sat, 9. Dec 17, 18:53

Chips wrote:
Additionally, 80% of post 9/11 terrorism offences in the US being done by American citizens, with the majority being right wing extremists...

Back that statement up with a source.

Chips · Post by **Chips** » Sat, 9. Dec 17, 19:13

Masterbagger wrote: Back that statement up with a source.

A quick Google search hasn't yielded the precise same source I originally read, so perhaps figures aren't as high... but they are as damning, with the amount done by right wing at 2x the number (or... 100% greater?)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 05831.html

https://www.vox.com/world/2017/10/2/163 ... rism-islam

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/ana ... -terrorism

So lets guess what you'll focus upon

Oh wait, found it, the vast majority (ov er 80%) are US citizens in the case of jihadist terrorism offences. The right wing offences still outnumber islamic by several factors as well...

https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccar ... bc9e03d894

The following infographic provides an overview of the citizenship status of all people involved in U.S. jihadist terrorism cases since 9/11. 190 of them, or 82 percent, are citizens and permanent residents. Refugees and illegal immigrants in particular have been involved in very few terrorist incidents

Ban those immigrant muslims, they've caused nearly NO instances of terrorism on US soil. SO DANGEROUS.
Meanwhile > 11,000 people died in the US last year from guns. SO SAFE.

Honestly, head, sand, bury it, ignore reality, live in your bubble. You're right, Trump supporters isn't where the idea of hating muslims come from. However, Trump supporters ignore, or accept/excuse while fail to condone a "leader" of a nation's racist, xenophobic, bullcrap (obvious) lies - while he castigates the free press for peddling "fake news".

It is hilarious and so pathetic at the same time.

clakclak · Post by **clakclak** » Sat, 9. Dec 17, 19:20

Chips wrote:[...]

Ban those immigrant muslims, they've caused ZERO instances of terrorism on US soil. SO DANGEROUS.[...]

Yeah that sounds about right. Lazy forgein terrorits leeching of the hard work of upstanding american terrorits, getting all the credit while not putting in any effort whatsoever!

Morkonan · Post by **Morkonan** » Sat, 9. Dec 17, 20:49

This is just too funny. It'd be sad, if it weren't so funny...

Trump: Pensacoloa Speech analysis, 41 eye-popping quotes

Too darn funny.

Masterbagger · Post by **Masterbagger** » Sat, 9. Dec 17, 20:49

Chips wrote:
Masterbagger wrote: Back that statement up with a source.
A quick Google search hasn't yielded the precise same source I originally read, so perhaps figures aren't as high... but they are as damning, with the amount done by right wing at 2x the number (or... 100% greater?)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 05831.html

https://www.vox.com/world/2017/10/2/163 ... rism-islam

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/ana ... -terrorism

So lets guess what you'll focus upon

Oh wait, found it, the vast majority (ov er 80%) are US citizens in the case of jihadist terrorism offences. The right wing offences still outnumber islamic by several factors as well...

https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccar ... bc9e03d894

The following infographic provides an overview of the citizenship status of all people involved in U.S. jihadist terrorism cases since 9/11. 190 of them, or 82 percent, are citizens and permanent residents. Refugees and illegal immigrants in particular have been involved in very few terrorist incidents
Ban those immigrant muslims, they've caused nearly NO instances of terrorism on US soil. SO DANGEROUS.
Meanwhile > 11,000 people died in the US last year from guns. SO SAFE.

Honestly, head, sand, bury it, ignore reality, live in your bubble. You're right, Trump supporters isn't where the idea of hating muslims come from. However, Trump supporters ignore, or accept/excuse while fail to condone a "leader" of a nation's racist, xenophobic, bullcrap (obvious) lies - while he castigates the free press for peddling "fake news".

It is hilarious and so pathetic at the same time.

Even if we accept your sources as factual, and that's a huge stretch when it comes to a biased outlet like vox, they make no reference whatsoever to the population of America. You are comparing a white majority population to a muslim minority and drawing conclusions from total acts of terror. A more truthful comparison would break it down into a rate of terror acts per block of population. I think if you did that the result would not support this idea. There are likely more right wing extremists. They are committing terror attacks at a lower rate than muslim extremists.

It's not worthwhile to ignore that an American position on immigrant muslims can be influenced by looking at what happened to the European nations that accepted thousands of migrants. We can see the truck attacks, acid attacks, and sexual assaults from here.

If you want to keep going back to guns I suggest you are guilty of what those who defend islam accuse others of. You use the minority committing our gun violence to attack the majority that does not. If you look at firearm homicide in detail you see a clear trend of who is killing, who is being killed, where, and why. That gets ignored to push a narrative where all guns are bad.

Morkonan · Post by **Morkonan** » Sat, 9. Dec 17, 20:50

clakclak wrote:
Chips wrote:[...]

Ban those immigrant muslims, they've caused ZERO instances of terrorism on US soil. SO DANGEROUS.[...]
Yeah that sounds about right. Lazy forgein terrorits leeching of the hard work of upstanding american terrorits, getting all the credit while not putting in any effort whatsoever!

They're takin' er jerbs!

Avis · Post by **Avis** » Sat, 9. Dec 17, 21:54

Ketraar wrote: Also you misrepresented the quote
It is non-negotiable. The Palestinians need a state that is contiguous and cohesive, and that allows them to prosper — but any agreement with the Palestinian people must preserve Israel's identity as a Jewish state, with secure, recognized and defensible borders. Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided.
Note that this speech is addressing a possible solution, not actual action. That the US defends the Capital of Israel to be Jerusalem, is nothing new, its about 20 years old, but it was never ACTED on it in the hopes to get an agreement. So you claiming "Obama did it too" is mild version of #whataboutism.

I don't believe I did misrepresent the quote, I took the bit you highlight to not alter the the present tense of the later statement about Jerusalem remaining the capital of Israel, the bit you highlight clearly relates to Palestine having to respect Israel as a Jewish state. Yes granted it was all part of an overall peace in the middle east speech that was aimed at appeasing a Jewish audience but his words were clear enough.

EDIT - I agree Obama never acted on it, he actually made matters worse if anything, but that's another story. I think he realised how incendiary his comments had been and made great effort to backtrack.

And as for me not providing citation, I assumed Obama's statement on Jerusalem was fairly common knowledge, apparently not.

Rnett · Post by **Rnett** » Sat, 9. Dec 17, 21:57

Well this thread doesn't seem to be getting any better.

Morkonan · Post by **Morkonan** » Sat, 9. Dec 17, 22:07

Rnett wrote:Well this thread doesn't seem to be getting any better.

egosoft.com

egosoft.com

Trump