Trump

Masterbagger · Post by **Masterbagger** » Sat, 9. Dec 17, 20:49

Chips wrote:
Masterbagger wrote: Back that statement up with a source.
A quick Google search hasn't yielded the precise same source I originally read, so perhaps figures aren't as high... but they are as damning, with the amount done by right wing at 2x the number (or... 100% greater?)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 05831.html

https://www.vox.com/world/2017/10/2/163 ... rism-islam

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/ana ... -terrorism

So lets guess what you'll focus upon

Oh wait, found it, the vast majority (ov er 80%) are US citizens in the case of jihadist terrorism offences. The right wing offences still outnumber islamic by several factors as well...

https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccar ... bc9e03d894

The following infographic provides an overview of the citizenship status of all people involved in U.S. jihadist terrorism cases since 9/11. 190 of them, or 82 percent, are citizens and permanent residents. Refugees and illegal immigrants in particular have been involved in very few terrorist incidents
Ban those immigrant muslims, they've caused nearly NO instances of terrorism on US soil. SO DANGEROUS.
Meanwhile > 11,000 people died in the US last year from guns. SO SAFE.

Honestly, head, sand, bury it, ignore reality, live in your bubble. You're right, Trump supporters isn't where the idea of hating muslims come from. However, Trump supporters ignore, or accept/excuse while fail to condone a "leader" of a nation's racist, xenophobic, bullcrap (obvious) lies - while he castigates the free press for peddling "fake news".

It is hilarious and so pathetic at the same time.

Even if we accept your sources as factual, and that's a huge stretch when it comes to a biased outlet like vox, they make no reference whatsoever to the population of America. You are comparing a white majority population to a muslim minority and drawing conclusions from total acts of terror. A more truthful comparison would break it down into a rate of terror acts per block of population. I think if you did that the result would not support this idea. There are likely more right wing extremists. They are committing terror attacks at a lower rate than muslim extremists.

It's not worthwhile to ignore that an American position on immigrant muslims can be influenced by looking at what happened to the European nations that accepted thousands of migrants. We can see the truck attacks, acid attacks, and sexual assaults from here.

If you want to keep going back to guns I suggest you are guilty of what those who defend islam accuse others of. You use the minority committing our gun violence to attack the majority that does not. If you look at firearm homicide in detail you see a clear trend of who is killing, who is being killed, where, and why. That gets ignored to push a narrative where all guns are bad.

Morkonan · Post by **Morkonan** » Sat, 9. Dec 17, 20:50

clakclak wrote:
Chips wrote:[...]

Ban those immigrant muslims, they've caused ZERO instances of terrorism on US soil. SO DANGEROUS.[...]
Yeah that sounds about right. Lazy forgein terrorits leeching of the hard work of upstanding american terrorits, getting all the credit while not putting in any effort whatsoever!

They're takin' er jerbs!

Avis · Post by **Avis** » Sat, 9. Dec 17, 21:54

Ketraar wrote: Also you misrepresented the quote
It is non-negotiable. The Palestinians need a state that is contiguous and cohesive, and that allows them to prosper — but any agreement with the Palestinian people must preserve Israel's identity as a Jewish state, with secure, recognized and defensible borders. Jerusalem will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided.
Note that this speech is addressing a possible solution, not actual action. That the US defends the Capital of Israel to be Jerusalem, is nothing new, its about 20 years old, but it was never ACTED on it in the hopes to get an agreement. So you claiming "Obama did it too" is mild version of #whataboutism.

I don't believe I did misrepresent the quote, I took the bit you highlight to not alter the the present tense of the later statement about Jerusalem remaining the capital of Israel, the bit you highlight clearly relates to Palestine having to respect Israel as a Jewish state. Yes granted it was all part of an overall peace in the middle east speech that was aimed at appeasing a Jewish audience but his words were clear enough.

EDIT - I agree Obama never acted on it, he actually made matters worse if anything, but that's another story. I think he realised how incendiary his comments had been and made great effort to backtrack.

And as for me not providing citation, I assumed Obama's statement on Jerusalem was fairly common knowledge, apparently not.

Rnett · Post by **Rnett** » Sat, 9. Dec 17, 21:57

Well this thread doesn't seem to be getting any better.

Morkonan · Post by **Morkonan** » Sat, 9. Dec 17, 22:07

Rnett wrote:Well this thread doesn't seem to be getting any better.

BugMeister · Post by **BugMeister** » Sun, 10. Dec 17, 01:33

The Russia Dossier..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewm_FQ-PSlQ

Post by **UniTrader** » Sun, 10. Dec 17, 02:06

Masterbagger wrote:
Chips wrote:....
Even if we accept your sources as factual, and that's a huge stretch when it comes to a biased outlet like vox, they make no reference whatsoever to the population of America.

Who do you refer to with this "we"? certainly not the Forum community as whole... Maybe Majestis Pluralis?

Also he linked more Sources than jut Vox... And based on the Link the other two certainly refer to north America..

Masterbagger wrote:You are comparing a white majority population to a muslim minority and drawing conclusions from total acts of terror. A more truthful comparison would break it down into a rate of terror acts per block of population. I think if you did that the result would not support this idea. There are likely more right wing extremists. They are committing terror attacks at a lower rate than muslim extremists.

two comments to this:
1) when looking into how to avoid as many deaths as possible you have to look at the absolute numbers of the causes you can counter, weighting them by source is counter-productive...
2) 0 divided by any large or small number still results in zero. and dont start trying to divide by zero...

Masterbagger wrote:If you want to keep going back to guns I suggest you are guilty of what those who defend islam accuse others of. You use the minority committing our gun violence to attack the majority that does not. If you look at firearm homicide in detail you see a clear trend of who is killing, who is being killed, where, and why. That gets ignored to push a narrative where all guns are bad.

i see your Gun laws as Historically grown bull.. when they were made it made sense, but nowadays they are simply outdated, but as with any historically grown bull its almost impossible to get rid of it..

BugMeister · Post by **BugMeister** » Sun, 10. Dec 17, 02:22

- do you get the impression that Trump is telling you what to think..??
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c2JJ_Y9iadI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7z_3HByA2I

- 'cos that's exactly what he is doing..

- spooky:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-y4fN6WqQBY

- he calls it "Make America Great Again", but it's same old bullcrap..

Usenko · Post by **Usenko** » Sun, 10. Dec 17, 02:55

UniTrader wrote:
Masterbagger wrote:If you want to keep going back to guns I suggest you are guilty of what those who defend islam accuse others of. You use the minority committing our gun violence to attack the majority that does not. If you look at firearm homicide in detail you see a clear trend of who is killing, who is being killed, where, and why. That gets ignored to push a narrative where all guns are bad.
i see your Gun laws as Historically grown bull.. when they were made it made sense, but nowadays they are simply outdated, but as with any historically grown bull its almost impossible to get rid of it..

It is not helped by the approach we see here (with apologies to Masterbagger) in which there are exactly two views understood to exist - "open slather" and "guns are bad".

In reality there is enormous scope for other views, such as my own ("guns are okay if held by reasonable people and correctly managed") and the more common Australian view ("guns are necessary but highly dangerous and access to them should be strictly controlled").

There's also New Zealand - "When stiff starts to go wrung we'll mek structer laws about gins, but for now we're not heving too much of a problem."

Observe · Post by **Observe** » Sun, 10. Dec 17, 02:59

Masterbagger wrote:If you look at firearm homicide in detail you see a clear trend of who is killing, who is being killed, where, and why. That gets ignored to push a narrative where all guns are bad.

It doesn't really matter who, where or why 33,636 people died by firearms in the United States in 2016 (almost as many as by automobile accidents). It is reasonable to expect, that less people will die by firearms if we reduce the availability of them. In reality, the vast number of firearm owners, have no rational business having them, since personal protection accounts for a vanishingly tiny percentage of cases where guns are utilized.

Post by **euclid** » Sun, 10. Dec 17, 03:19

Oh dear, I hope this doesn't derail into another pro/con firearm thread

arrggghhh

Cheers Euclid

felter · Post by **felter** » Sun, 10. Dec 17, 04:45

So since Trump took office the US can no longer take part in Environmental issues, as they are left out of important meetings on the matter since they pulled out of the Paris agreement.

They are also now being left out of important trade meetings, like Trump was during his latest trip to Asia, because they have pulled out of trade pacts.

And now in the middle east we are getting:

Arab League foreign ministers wrote:now say it means the US cannot be relied upon as a broker of Middle East peace.

No one in the Middle East apart from Israel wants to talk to Pence when he is suppose to be talking to them about peace later this month.

So I take it that to make America great again, you first turn them into a nobody worthless country that no one wants to do any kind of business with. Looks like Trump is doing a grand job at it then.

mrbadger · Post by **mrbadger** » Sun, 10. Dec 17, 10:24

Observe wrote:It is reasonable to expect, that less people will die by firearms if we reduce the availability of them. In reality, the vast number of firearm owners, have no rational business having them

Like my Silicon Valley worker friend with his anti bear gun you mean?

I did point out to him he was unlikely to encounter many grizzly's in his executive office, but he do like his shiny boom stick....

BugMeister · Post by **BugMeister** » Sun, 10. Dec 17, 12:03

with the US apparently suffering a mass loss of self-respect,
I'm not at all surprised they have little or none for anyone else..

- tragic that a nation long respected for it's defence of democracy should sink to such depths..
- Trump and Trumpism is the cause..

- more evidence of the rot taking hold in the US
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/201 ... sel-russia

- tragic..

mrbadger · Post by **mrbadger** » Sun, 10. Dec 17, 15:23

BugMeister wrote:
- tragic that a nation long respected for it's defence of democracy should sink to such depths..
- Trump and Trumpism is the cause.(

I doubt that, I suspect instead that his rise to power is a symptom of a greater problem. There's no way he's personally responsible for everything that's gone wrong in the US over the last few decades, and it has been decades.

It's just coming to a head now, but even now I get the feeling that given the slightest chance it'll get buried again, or they'll try to.

There's a rot in the heart of the US, and it's tragic to see.

felter · Post by **felter** » Sun, 10. Dec 17, 16:50

What gets me with the Russian Muller thing, if there is nothing to see and that nothing has been done that is wrong or illegal, why make a big deal out of it. If it is as they say nothing to see here, then nothing will be found and they will be proven innocent, and they can raise their heads high and say we told you so. Mind you they can't exactly say that, as there has already been four people charged with crimes, and two of them have even pleaded guilty. If they never had the investigation in the first place then these four people would have got away with any crimes they have committed, though two are still just allegedly committed.

This means so far the investigation has proven fruitful, also meaning it was a worthwhile endeavour. In all stopping it now would be a stupid thing to do, as there possibly could be other crimes committed and these should be routed out.

Saying it is a waste of tax payers money is really stupid thing to say too, especially as I've already said 4 people charged with two pleading guilty already, means it has paid for itself. besides the cost is a spit in the tax payer ocean, hell Trump has probably spent more tax payer money playing golf than has been spent on the investigation.

The only real reason I can see for wanting this investigation to be stopped, is because there is something to be found, something that these people, especially Trump does not want to be found. And for this reason alone the investigation has to be continued.

Also I must say that these people trying to put a halt to it they also need to be investigated, as it could be construed that they are trying to pervert the course of an investigation, as they are not just saying it should not go ahead, they are going out of there way to put a stop to it and that in my book is wrong.

Post by **UniTrader** » Sun, 10. Dec 17, 17:26

felter wrote:Saying it is a waste of tax payers money is really stupid thing to say too, especially as I've already said 4 people charged with two pleading guilty already, means it has paid for itself. besides the cost is a spit in the tax payer ocean, hell Trump has probably spent more tax payer money playing golf than has been spent on the investigation.

Someone linked a Report that Trumps Travel Expenses in the first few Months were more costly than Obamas in his entire first Term... currently not really in the mood to look for it though..

Observe · Post by **Observe** » Sun, 10. Dec 17, 18:37

I wouldn't worry too much about the direction the Trump Administration is going. In fact, I think it is a good thing that America is taking its rightful place as a third-rate nation. I think the political 'pendulum effect' that brought Trump to power, will end up throwing off the cloak of bigotry and false superiority that has plagued this country from the beginning.

It's good to 'clear the air' to make way for a more humbled and sensible post-Trump national identity. I say, keep bringing on the Trump absurdities so that we can identity and then empty the 'basket of deplorables' that Trump is thankfully bringing into the light of day. Thank you Donald Trump for exposing the laggards in our midst.

felter · Post by **felter** » Sun, 10. Dec 17, 19:27

The problem, is there anyone out there on either spectrum of American politics to take his place that is neither the same as him or just as bad as him. As far as I have seen, there are some even worse than him that want the job.

Masterbagger · Post by **Masterbagger** » Sun, 10. Dec 17, 19:32

Observe wrote:
Masterbagger wrote:If you look at firearm homicide in detail you see a clear trend of who is killing, who is being killed, where, and why. That gets ignored to push a narrative where all guns are bad.
It doesn't really matter who, where or why 33,636 people died by firearms in the United States in 2016 (almost as many as by automobile accidents). It is reasonable to expect, that less people will die by firearms if we reduce the availability of them. In reality, the vast number of firearm owners, have no rational business having them, since personal protection accounts for a vanishingly tiny percentage of cases where guns are utilized.

The people who died in car accidents didn't overwhelmingly crash their own cars on purpose. You say 33,000 gun deaths per year but leave out that 2/3 of that is suicide and most of the rest criminals killing criminals. The details always matter. Gun control will never reduce deaths until it targets the right people. It's a perfect parallel to islam. One side of the argument is so fixated on the gun itself or defending islam that they refuse to see the actual problem. They make their case by throwing out numbers and counting on them not being subjected to scrutiny.

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