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felter
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Post by felter » Sun, 10. Dec 17, 16:50

What gets me with the Russian Muller thing, if there is nothing to see and that nothing has been done that is wrong or illegal, why make a big deal out of it. If it is as they say nothing to see here, then nothing will be found and they will be proven innocent, and they can raise their heads high and say we told you so. Mind you they can't exactly say that, as there has already been four people charged with crimes, and two of them have even pleaded guilty. If they never had the investigation in the first place then these four people would have got away with any crimes they have committed, though two are still just allegedly committed.

This means so far the investigation has proven fruitful, also meaning it was a worthwhile endeavour. In all stopping it now would be a stupid thing to do, as there possibly could be other crimes committed and these should be routed out.

Saying it is a waste of tax payers money is really stupid thing to say too, especially as I've already said 4 people charged with two pleading guilty already, means it has paid for itself. besides the cost is a spit in the tax payer ocean, hell Trump has probably spent more tax payer money playing golf than has been spent on the investigation.

The only real reason I can see for wanting this investigation to be stopped, is because there is something to be found, something that these people, especially Trump does not want to be found. And for this reason alone the investigation has to be continued.

Also I must say that these people trying to put a halt to it they also need to be investigated, as it could be construed that they are trying to pervert the course of an investigation, as they are not just saying it should not go ahead, they are going out of there way to put a stop to it and that in my book is wrong.
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Post by UniTrader » Sun, 10. Dec 17, 17:26

felter wrote:Saying it is a waste of tax payers money is really stupid thing to say too, especially as I've already said 4 people charged with two pleading guilty already, means it has paid for itself. besides the cost is a spit in the tax payer ocean, hell Trump has probably spent more tax payer money playing golf than has been spent on the investigation.
Someone linked a Report that Trumps Travel Expenses in the first few Months were more costly than Obamas in his entire first Term... currently not really in the mood to look for it though..
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Post by Observe » Sun, 10. Dec 17, 18:37

I wouldn't worry too much about the direction the Trump Administration is going. In fact, I think it is a good thing that America is taking its rightful place as a third-rate nation. I think the political 'pendulum effect' that brought Trump to power, will end up throwing off the cloak of bigotry and false superiority that has plagued this country from the beginning.

It's good to 'clear the air' to make way for a more humbled and sensible post-Trump national identity. I say, keep bringing on the Trump absurdities so that we can identity and then empty the 'basket of deplorables' that Trump is thankfully bringing into the light of day. Thank you Donald Trump for exposing the laggards in our midst.

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Post by felter » Sun, 10. Dec 17, 19:27

The problem, is there anyone out there on either spectrum of American politics to take his place that is neither the same as him or just as bad as him. As far as I have seen, there are some even worse than him that want the job.
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Masterbagger
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Post by Masterbagger » Sun, 10. Dec 17, 19:32

Observe wrote:
Masterbagger wrote:If you look at firearm homicide in detail you see a clear trend of who is killing, who is being killed, where, and why. That gets ignored to push a narrative where all guns are bad.
It doesn't really matter who, where or why 33,636 people died by firearms in the United States in 2016 (almost as many as by automobile accidents). It is reasonable to expect, that less people will die by firearms if we reduce the availability of them. In reality, the vast number of firearm owners, have no rational business having them, since personal protection accounts for a vanishingly tiny percentage of cases where guns are utilized.
The people who died in car accidents didn't overwhelmingly crash their own cars on purpose. You say 33,000 gun deaths per year but leave out that 2/3 of that is suicide and most of the rest criminals killing criminals. The details always matter. Gun control will never reduce deaths until it targets the right people. It's a perfect parallel to islam. One side of the argument is so fixated on the gun itself or defending islam that they refuse to see the actual problem. They make their case by throwing out numbers and counting on them not being subjected to scrutiny.
Who made that man a gunner?

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Post by Observe » Sun, 10. Dec 17, 19:38

Masterbagger wrote:The people who died in car accidents didn't overwhelmingly crash their own cars on purpose. You say 33,000 gun deaths per year but leave out that 2/3 of that is suicide and most of the rest criminals killing criminals.
I didn't leave anything out. What I said, was "It doesn't really matter who, where or why 33,636 people died by firearms". So what if most firearm deaths are domestic violence, accidents or suicides? The point is guns are involved.

I wonder how many people die from gunshot who don't own guns?

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Post by Morkonan » Sun, 10. Dec 17, 19:56

felter wrote:What gets me with the Russian Muller thing, if there is nothing to see and that nothing has been done that is wrong or illegal, why make a big deal out of it. If it is as they say nothing to see here, then nothing will be found and they will be proven innocent, and they can raise their heads high and say we told you so.
The existence of an investigation doesn't prove anything, itself... It's the results of that investigation that are important.

Suppose I start an "investigation." I have decided to investigate you because of your suspicious activity surrounding an incident of lolipop theft, right here on the forums! Yes, a lolipop was left unattended on these forums, right next to the "control panel" on the screen, which you can plainly see, and it is now GONE! ZOMGZ! This needs to be "investigated!"

So, now you're being investigated for lolipop theft... Everyone's talking about it. Everyone is eagerly awaiting every news blurb about this important investigation. You proclaim your innocence, but no matter how loudly you proclaim it there is absolutely no effect whatsoever. Why? Because there's an "investigation" going on, that's why! Obviously, that investigation is investigating "something," right? It wouldn't, it couldn't, exist without something to "investigate," right? It'd be nonsensical to investigate... nothing. Politicians simply wouldn't put us through that unless there was a good reason!

(If anyone has seen my lolipop, please report it to your local authorities.
felter may, or may not, have been involved in its theft.)

:)

While I do feel there is substance to the foundations for the current investigation of Russian meddling and possible collusion with the Trump campaign, I also feel we must not use the simple existence of such an investigation as "evidence."
Mind you they can't exactly say that, as there has already been four people charged with crimes, and two of them have even pleaded guilty. If they never had the investigation in the first place then these four people would have got away with any crimes they have committed, though two are still just allegedly committed.
Ah, "crime." Examine anyone and it's likely you can find some "crime" they've committed. The more interactions they have, the more power and responsibility, the more direct interactions they have with highly regulated activities with stringent laws, the more likely it is you will find a "crime" committed.

If you spend 1% of your total time each day driving, it's less likely it will be discovered you have committed a driving infraction. If you spend 30% of your total time each day driving, the likelihood you could have committed a driving offense rises dramatically.

Of course, if you're a skeezy power-hungry political animal that helps organize corrupt political campaigns for oligarchies and industrial criminals.... Yeah, an open investigation of such a person is bound to stumble, trip, and fall over any number of violations.

Despite the direction of my argument, I surely believe that this investigation is fully justified. All I am saying is that we must maintain an appropriate perspective. We can not afford, if we're intellectually honest, to attribute guilt to anyone for whom direct evidence of guilt doesn't exist. If a person is found guilty of a crime, that doesn't mean someone who has not yet been found guilty of something is therefore... guilty. "Guilt by simple association" exists in the "Court of public opinion" and not in a criminal court.
This means so far the investigation has proven fruitful, also meaning it was a worthwhile endeavour. In all stopping it now would be a stupid thing to do, as there possibly could be other crimes committed and these should be routed out.
Yes! We must continue to root out heresy wherever it may be found!

;)

I agree that this investigation must continue. I also feel it is very likely to uncover evidence of deeper Russian involvement with the Trump campaign. I am sure that more evidence will come to light and more people will be brought up on significant charges.

However, I do not wish to see fires burning in Washington with people dancing around the pyres of the falsely accused, just because they "don't like them." Yes, the investigation needs to continue. But, it needs to be focused clearly and we must do all that we can to guard the integrity of the process. If we fail to do that, then anything associated with investigation will be corrupted and placed in doubt.
...The only real reason I can see for wanting this investigation to be stopped, is because there is something to be found, something that these people, especially Trump does not want to be found. And for this reason alone the investigation has to be continued.
I would agree that those calling for an end to this are likely motivated by reasons other than fiscal efficiency. But, keep in mind that the investigation, by itself, has no purpose. In order for it to have a purpose, it must be investigating something. It is not holy and untouchable simply because it has been defined as "existing." Once it has concluded its investigation of "something", it's done. Again, its existence alone does not imply anything at all that is worthy of note other than the fact it has been empowered into existence.
Also I must say that these people trying to put a halt to it they also need to be investigated, as it could be construed that they are trying to pervert the course of an investigation, as they are not just saying it should not go ahead, they are going out of there way to put a stop to it and that in my book is wrong.
No.

It is not some "holy" thing. If people speak out against it, that is their right. As long as they do not seek to corrupt it or commit crimes in an attempt to pervert it, they are well within their rights to speak out against it and give their opinion. However, even the staunchest naysayer must cooperate with it according to the law.

We can not go on a witch-hunt against anyone who dares speak out against "The Investigation." If they oppose it, it does not mean that they are guilty of any crime, no more than someone who disagrees with a set speed limit is guilty of breaking that limit when they drive.

Sure, I've played "Devil's Advocate" here, according to some, but these are simple principles that I truly fear are being overlooked by some who have a vested political interest in this "investigation." Just as some may inflame the "fear of terrorism" to bring about their political goals, some are attempting to use this "investigation" as some form of proof, itself, to fuel their own political goals.

Let's keep this investigation focused, let's guard its integrity, and let's allow those who are conducting it to do the best job possible. Only then can we have the best assurance that the findings of the investigation will be valid and supported by appropriate evidence. History will judge us based on these factors and not by any politically motivated headlines.

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Post by pjknibbs » Sun, 10. Dec 17, 22:18

Morkonan wrote: We can not go on a witch-hunt against anyone who dares speak out against "The Investigation." If they oppose it, it does not mean that they are guilty of any crime, no more than someone who disagrees with a set speed limit is guilty of breaking that limit when they drive.
If I had a hundred Internets you could have them all. Frankly, I think the sooner Trump crashes and burns the better, but advocating investigating people for speaking out against something they believe isn't right is not the way to hasten that happy day. Can you imagine the comments if Trump were saying something similar? "Oh, anyone who says they want me out is going to be investigated as a matter of course because they're obviously commie anti-American subversives".

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Post by BugMeister » Sun, 10. Dec 17, 22:33

- he already has a ready-made propaganda machine - Bannon Murdoch et al..
- if he gets his own way, he'll have his own protection squad and private spy network
- the next step is an internal black ops group..

- he's learning from Putin's evil regime..
- his personal history proves that Trump cannot be trusted..

Bill Maher - like it is:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epOFcZt9Zic

- garbage. garbage, everywhere and not a thought to think..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cia08L9jZmk

- there's a killer on the road - his brain is squirming like a toad:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N77SysKJZqE

:lol: :lol: :lol:

- meanwhile the world goes to hell in a handcart:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rotzgnrnfnY

Where's the 25th Amendment when you need it?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sA2AHMFGq_Y
- the whole universe is running in BETA mode - we're working on it.. beep..!! :D :thumb_up:

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Post by Bishop149 » Mon, 11. Dec 17, 11:51

Observe wrote:. . . . will end up throwing off the cloak of bigotry and false superiority that has plagued this country from the beginning.
Lol, you think America has a problem there, try living in the UK.

[breaks into rousing but slightly tearful chorus of "Britannia Rules the Waves"]
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BugMeister
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Post by BugMeister » Mon, 11. Dec 17, 14:00

- the amazin' Randi Rhodes:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZz2SdaL7sE

- hatred is on the agenda with Trump and the GOP
- they are the party of hatred and lies..

- and Farage is one of their cohorts..
- the whole universe is running in BETA mode - we're working on it.. beep..!! :D :thumb_up:

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Post by RegisterMe » Mon, 11. Dec 17, 14:15

I think the chances of it being proven that Trump (/his campaign) actively consorted with Russia to win the election are vanishingly small. Why? Because their record during the campaign, and in office, demonstrates such incompetence that had they done so it would be beyond blindingly obvious.

That having been said I think the chances of Trump (/his campaign) being found to have done something they can be prosecuted for are extremely high. Why?

For exactly the same reason.
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Post by UniTrader » Mon, 11. Dec 17, 16:21

Didn't Trump already admit that he colluded with Russia for the election on Twitter? (I think it was about one or two weeks ago).. He also said that it was no crime to do this in same tweet...
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Post by Observe » Mon, 11. Dec 17, 18:59

Even if Trump did somehow work with some Russian citizens to help sway the election, is that necessarily an impeachment offense? Doesn't everyone try to sway the election in their favor?

Short of directly hacking the voting machines or altering results, I don't see the big deal. It was Americans who voted regardless of whether news media or anything else was influenced.

Even if computers where hacked and secret emails where revealed, how is that impeachable? Too bad if your computer security is so poor that secret information is stolen. When a person is playing in the big leagues, they have to know that if they want to keep something secret, they should tell no one and keep no record.

Yes, I know stealing, whether by cyber means or otherwise, is and should be illegal, but in reality, its dog-eat-dog out there.

Putting aside the Russians, I think the bigger potential for impeachment, is if it can be proven that Trump fired Comey to derail an ongoing FBI investigation.

Possibly Trump will go down because of sexual indiscretions, but otherwise, I don't see anything substantive on the horizon pointing to impeachment.

Most likely, Trump will resign because he can't be bothered being President or because the job takes too much of a toll on his health. Then we will have the rabid dogs of liberalism after Pence and there will be a new thread in OT pulling him apart.

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Post by fiksal » Mon, 11. Dec 17, 20:09

Observe wrote:Even if Trump did somehow work with some Russian citizens to help sway the election, is that necessarily an impeachment offense? Doesn't everyone try to sway the election in their favor?
That all depends. So far the rhetoric seems to be, one cant get aid from another government in trying to win an election; including working with hackers of another government; negotiating deals for the scenario if one wins; have another government aid you with a expensive misinformation campaign.

If Americans think that it's a problem, I'd gladly agree with them.


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Post by felter » Mon, 11. Dec 17, 20:44

It depends on what he did with the Russians and what he offered them. For example it is allegedly they sought to get hacked material from the Russians which means they were seeking stolen goods. can't say for America but at least here that is illegal. More importantly, it is alleged they offered to remove sanctions for the stolen data, which means they were making diplomatic deals and promises as a civilian, which we know just so happens is also illegal. So it is not quite so much the collusion per say, it's what that collusion entails.

It's also interesting that Trumps supporters have stopped denying that there was any collusion with Russia, instead they are now attacking the investigation into collusion.

I do love the irony that they go after the investigation, saying that is is corrupt because of that employee that was removed from it because they found out he was a Trump hater, but they removed him as soon as they found out, where as with Trump when he finds out Michael Flynn was breaking the rules, he gave him a job.
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Post by fiksal » Mon, 11. Dec 17, 20:56

Agreed

Die hard supporters arent looking for truth. They are interested in their master to remain in power, hoping that will miraculously benefit them someday.

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Post by Observe » Mon, 11. Dec 17, 21:35

fiksal wrote:Die hard supporters arent looking for truth. They are interested in their master to remain in power, hoping that will miraculously benefit them someday.
Truth be told, I suspect that for most ardent Trump supporters, the more that liberals hate what Trump does, the happier they are. That's all the benefit they seek.

Remember, there are a lot of people in the U.S. who think that liberalism has gone too far. Transgender bathrooms, gay marriage, marijuana legalization, socialized health care, to name a few of the right-wing pet peeves. These examples and many others, are seen as America going down the toilet.

Thus, having a President who opposes such 'progress', is Manna from heaven for Trumpeters. Let's make America great again, is music to the ears of such people, because going backwards is their idea of how things should be.

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Post by fiksal » Mon, 11. Dec 17, 23:20

Observe wrote:
fiksal wrote:Die hard supporters arent looking for truth. They are interested in their master to remain in power, hoping that will miraculously benefit them someday.
Truth be told, I suspect that for most ardent Trump supporters, the more that liberals hate what Trump does, the happier they are. That's all the benefit they seek.
If that's all it takes for someone to be happy, then they must be the happiest people.

Trump doesnt even need to improve anything, or make sure the people who voted for him have healthcare, social safety net, infrastructure, jobs.... oh wait a second... this would make a lot of sense.

Observe wrote: Remember, there are a lot of people in the U.S. who think that liberalism has gone too far. Transgender bathrooms, gay marriage, marijuana legalization, socialized health care, to name a few of the right-wing pet peeves. These examples and many others, are seen as America going down the toilet.

Thus, having a President who opposes such 'progress', is Manna from heaven for Trumpeters. Let's make America great again, is music to the ears of such people, because going backwards is their idea of how things should be.
I wonder how other countries take this step, to go from the idea "we should tell everyone how to exactly live their lives and punish others" to "people should be free".

US clearly hasnt, or if it had it's only in the pockets of big cities.

Russia isnt a good example...

How did Europe do this?... if it did?

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Post by Morkonan » Mon, 11. Dec 17, 23:37

pjknibbs wrote:
Morkonan wrote: We can not go on a witch-hunt against anyone who dares speak out against "The Investigation." If they oppose it, it does not mean that they are guilty of any crime, no more than someone who disagrees with a set speed limit is guilty of breaking that limit when they drive.
If I had a hundred Internets you could have them all. Frankly, I think the sooner Trump crashes and burns the better, but advocating investigating people for speaking out against something they believe isn't right is not the way to hasten that happy day. Can you imagine the comments if Trump were saying something similar? "Oh, anyone who says they want me out is going to be investigated as a matter of course because they're obviously commie anti-American subversives".
And yet, Trump appears to hold to the conviction that anyone who isn't with him is, by his definition, against him. Further, it's obvious that he takes punitive measures against those he feels have "betrayed" him. He speaks out against them almost in the same breath that he once used to speak out in favor of them with great praise...

I don't think Trump is far away from the idea of "punitive investigation" should he somehow emerge from this thing with no formal charges being brought against him. It appears one of the most disastrous events that can occur is having a Trump "win" something and then seek vindication by punishing his detractors... If he somehow gets a "free hand" and feels he can do "anything", like "grab their @@$%Y" because he's "a celebrity", what will he really do, then? It's... scary to contemplate. It'd be like a squalling five-year-old being given an assault-rife and then unleashed upon the former friends who have spurned him...

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