Hub Plot

[firefightervf06]

So...I've read through pages and pages of varying opinions on setting up complexes for the Hub plot. All I can say is, crap am I overwhelmed!! I already have a dozen ore and silicon mines setup around the universe at the highest yield asteroids only. Would it be best to turn their CAG's to purchase resource only and then have a few CLS2's running to each of them to collect their ware then take it straight to the Hub or a TM if I'm not to that mineral yet? And if so, how do I setup the waypoints for each station? IE: Have each CLS2 have the exact same waypoints "stations" and then tell them to max load at each, etc? Thanks again for all the help like always!!

[MarvinTheMartian]

Are you playing X3TC or X3AP?

It's been a while since I did this plot in either game but as you've set up your Si and Ore mines already then yes, use CAG to buy the e-cells and CLS to transfer to the hub. You might want to consider using a TL to store some of it though as you can't deliver the wares out of sequence IIRC. As a rule though, the NPC economy over-produces Si and Ore so you can just buy Si and Ore for minimum price, same with Teadianium if you force feed them energy.

EDIT: You may also want to use some of these Si mines to base a self-contained complex for your chip plants. You can turn these on/off as required for energy, Si, microchips and crystals at certain times

While the hub plot is a chore it does set you up well for the future, microchips specifically, sell very well and will earn you many creditssss for you empire.

If it all gets too much you can go modified and either install a mod that reduces the requirements or simply clone up the wares to get through it. Not sure about TC but AP was patched so some of the cloning "cheats" are gone.

Just remember to pace yourself. Do a few other missions on the side while you're at it other you'll go mad

[RAVEN.myst]

firefighter, since about the 3rd time I did this plot, I have NEVER built any factories to supply the Hub (with the exception of some Chip Plants later on) - I get ALL my resources (except some of the microchips) by buying them from the world using CAGs. My Hub tend to eventually run 40-50 CAGs each beinging in an absolute fortune (10s of millions of credits per hour), so the aggressive purchasing of ore, silicon, or whatever makes barely a dent in that - the system pays for itself, and other than the work invoved in incrementally adding CAG freighters, it's pretty close to "fire and forget".

This method also opens up some opportunities: you could, for example, set up some ore mines or whatever, and sell their product to the world (NOT to you Hub!) while you are stripping the universe economy of its ore - you create a shortage through your Hub purchases, which you satisfy at top dollar with your production. Remember: if you mine a unit of ore and send it to your Hub, you get 1 unit of ore there - but if you sell it for ~200 to an NPC, you get to buy almost 3 units at 70 each, or 2 units at the crappy price of 100 each even - it makes no sense to send your mined ore to your hub. The same principle applies to most wares (but not so much to microchips - don't worry, you'll get to that.)

Just to give you some idea: using my CAGs buying approach, I am free to go about doing whatever the hell I want, still pulling in very good profits from the Hub, and each ware is completed in 1-3 days, tops (except them microchips...) - with very little fuss. (Granted, over the years I've fine tuned and dare-I-say perfected my CAG management methods, but that's also what this whole exercise is very good for - as training on how to manage your CAGs.)

[firefightervf06]

How is your hub making the fortune? Is that once the gates are open and then also in assuming you set your cags to buy and sell? I believe you have it so that your cag is buying low and you have the sale price high at the hub? How do you tell the cag to buy low but yet you sell high?

[firefightervf06]

Oh and I'm playing tc, thanks. Sometimes think it'd be easier if they were separate forums but I do get why they aren't.

[Sirrobert]

How is your hub making the fortune? Is that once the gates are open and then also in assuming you set your cags to buy and sell? I believe you have it so that your cag is buying low and you have the sale price high at the hub? How do you tell the cag to buy low but yet you sell high?

Indeed, with some fancy setup you can turn CAGs into specialized, homebased Universe Traders (in essence).
Buy cheap, sell high on massive scale (instead of based on individual demand, as UTs do)

So instead of buying just enough Ore to supply a single factory at this moment (as UT does. It only makes a single trade run at a time), CAG can buy the entire stock of an Ore mine at minimum price, and then sell all of that to several stations at max price

[firefightervf06]

The easy way would be to have them homebased out of wherever and have some of the CAG's be Buyers and the others be Salesman. But I still don't know how you tell the station the difference between the buying and selling price. Unless it's a complex I didn't think you can differentiate the prices...

[MarvinTheMartian]

Happy to hear from RAVEN on the matter but there are 2 ways I've used:

The first is complicated and requires 2 docks, 1 buying and the other selling with a CLS transfer of goods from the buyer to the seller (at a price that allows credits to flow back the other way)

The 2nd takes a bit of a leap of faith and trust that the CAG will always buy at best possible price and sell at best possible price so always making a profit that may not always be max but good enough

You can use ware lists to restrict what is bought and or sold so you can control what stays in your inventory. The 2nd method requires less maintenance but getting the settings right (price and CAG) takes some tuning

[Sirrobert]

CAG always looks for the best price. The listed price is just the minimum they'll move for (or maximum they'll pay).
At worst, they'll buy and sell at the same price, and you lose a few Ecells (and support the economy).

For basic items like Ore and Ecells, there's nearly always a factory that needs them at max price though, and nearly always a full mine/SPP that sells them at minimum

[firefightervf06]

Ok, well the issue I'm right now having is I unloaded some e-cells in the hub for my cag's to be able to refuel with. Then in the "adjust sell price" I raised it to 20 since the Hub is allowing others to trade with it-(maybe I should shut that off?) I watched three of my own trading ships go in and sell the Hub. Like wth, I don't want to buy cells from my own guys! When I checked their info it said "selling ware best price" which to me means my HUB is buying them at the 20 that I want it to sell at. So how do I stop this? lol. Very frustrating to me.

[AleksMain]

Ok, well the issue I'm right now having is I unloaded some e-cells in the hub for my cag's to be able to refuel with. Then in the "adjust sell price" I raised it to 20 since the Hub is allowing others to trade with it-(maybe I should shut that off?) I watched three of my own trading ships go in and sell the Hub. Like wth, I don't want to buy cells from my own guys! When I checked their info it said "selling ware best price" which to me means my HUB is buying them at the 20 that I want it to sell at. So how do I stop this? lol. Very frustrating to me.

Hub is allowing others to trade with it. Shut it off.

Then set price of E-cells to minimum, so your own trading ships will not sell to the Hub.

All my own complexes and stations don't allow others to trade with them, for example.

[firefightervf06]

How do you shut it off to your own ships though?

[AleksMain]

Set price of E-cells to minimum, so your own trading ships will not sell to the Hub.

P.S. If your ships resell E-cells though (Universal Traders), then set average price of E-cells.

I had not such problem, because my own one Sector trader is one of the my first ships, it was necessary just to start game.

Now my pilot has big complexes and more than 870 millions cash.

[ancienthighway]

Until the Hub is finally built, it's probably best to shut off all trading with it. If you know what wares are needed for the next step, you can begin to stockpile them at the Hub. If you use it as a trading base, you'll quite likely sell them before you need them.

If you do get the urge to use it as a trading base, use CAGs and set their Trade Duties to Salesman. In the Wares List, Black list all the wares you need for the Hub's completion. Set the price to average and let the CAG workout the details. Other races set to no. With gates set up joining, for example, Argon space around Argon Prime with Argon space around Home of Light your CAGs can capitalize on bargain prices in one area to sell at inflated prices in another using the Hub not only for the transportation boost but as a collection point while waiting for better prices.

[RAVEN.myst]

How is your hub making the fortune? Is that once the gates are open and then also in assuming you set your cags to buy and sell? I believe you have it so that your cag is buying low and you have the sale price high at the hub? How do you tell the cag to buy low but yet you sell high?

It's actually really simple, no complicated dual-docks or anything of the sort required. I don't even fiddle with the pricing, I leave it at default - as Sirrobert pointed out, the CAGs are aggressive with their price seeking, they always go after the best price they can find (with distance being used as tie-breaker). So, a CAG operating from the Hub (or any other dock), with the Ore price left at 128, will buy at 50 almost always (as there's almost always somewhere to buy at that price, and I recently tested this with dedicated CLS2s), and almost always sell at ~200. I also DO NOT specialise my CAGs to buyer/seller, for the most part (only 2 exceptions: 1. specialised buyer for Hub-Plot resources, but I don't set to "buyer", I restrict to the ware in question, and 2. ECell fuel tanker, described below) - I leave all my trading CAGs as "Trader" - this allows them to do whatever's most useful at the moment, automatically load-balancing (here, setting "station purchase credit balance" and stock levels to maintain is VERY useful, but quite subtle.)

One thing to bear in mind (I really SHOULD post a CAG+Dock guide that I can simply link to in such threads - I've posted this info so many times already!) is something you appear to have noticed: the special case of Energy Cells. These I DO NOT trade in from the Hub or any other dock (unless it's a very short-range one, 1 or 2 trade range, usually when playing Terran), because it's much too easy for the stores to run dry, and then your freighters are having to walk. So, my trainee CAGs help with that (one of my Hub connections is to a sector with ample SPPs), and then I periodically add specialised EC buyers - not many required, if you use, for example, Mercury Haulers, you'll only need one for every 20 CAGs or so; make that 1 for every 10 if you are using smaller freighters. These ships I set to only deal in ECells, and to "buyer" - this maintains fuel levels for my fleet's jumpdrives.

An important factor is what wares you trade - I find Ore is crucial, given its extreme profitability (buy @ 50, sell @ 200 - quadrupling money!). Silicon is OK too - it potentially has a ~3:1 ratio, but it's rare to sell it near max. Other lucrative wares are foods (incidentally, this is a handy way to build relations with specific races.) Oh, and do yourself a favour: don't select a whole bunch of wares right off the bat - you'll struggle with start-up costs to buy the required stock. Start with ECs and one ware (I recommend ore), then add one food type (pick either the race you want to butter up first, or the one that's most accessible given where your Hub is connected - initially it's likely to be Teladi, given how you have to supply Teladianium early on) once your ore stock level is up to around half. Then, gradually you can add more wares - don't be in too much of a rush, as every time you add a ware you will temporarily reduce profits while your CAGs stock up the Hub with the new ware. Initially, you want to cater to your local area near your Hub connections - the farther away you trade, the more varied the markets with more potential suppliers and clients (and thus more chances of better prices), but also higher running costs (jump fuel.) A nice side-effect from providing minerals and food is that you'll soon find your cared-for areas' industries spinning up, and before you know it, there's ample shields, guns, and ammo available - in fact, you'll even find that the L variants of ships are more consistently available at shipyards.


"How do you shut it off to your own ships though?" - I don't understand your question - if you mean to other stations' CAGs (which you probably don't), you can use the Command Console -> Station Commands -> Trade Barrier. If you want to block your STs/UTs, that's trickier in X3TC: setting prices low doesn't help, as then your UTs come to buy the stuff from there (which may have potentially been bought more expensively!) but setting the price high, while encouraging your UTs to supply the Hub, will also allow your CAGs to buy for higher prices, which you don't want - I just avoid UTs altogether (haven't used them heavily in several years in just about any of my games.) If you DO use UTs and such, I recommend home-basing them to your Hub - they will then use the Hub's account (make sure your "float" is quite high, at least 5 million or so), so if they buy or sell at the Hub, they credits will stay there. However, generally speaking you shouldn't see too many UTs trading at your Hub once your CAG fleet is rolling nicely, as the CAGs will be taking the best deals out there, leaving the UTs to trade in other wares that your Hub isn't set to handle (for the most part, anyhow.)

VERY IMPORTANT: Do NOT set EC price to minimum at your Hub if you are running any UTs! The UTs will then keep draining your stocks at your Hub, meaning your CAGs run out of jump fuel.

Also important: As ancienthighway also notes, disable the station's trading with other races - you DON'T want NPC ships walking in off the street and buying/selling at the medium price - that will undermine your profits BIG-TIME, destabilise your stock levels (they will flood you with some stuff and deplete you of other stuff, at THEIR discretion, not yours), and they will clog up your docking ports, potentially causing a traffic jam. Speaking of traffic jams: I recommend spending as little time as possible in the hub sector once you have CAGs trading from there, as being in-sector there complicates your freighters' docking, and they end up dancing around trying to keep out of each other's way, and the more freighters you have, the worse this gets. If you stay out of the sector, however, this doesn't happen.

[Sirrobert]

Personally I always put an SPP in Akela's Beacon to supply my fleet with Ecells (at later stages of the game)
Production there is so fast you need a freighter dedicated to nonstop runs getting crystals, but with that in place, a very fast Ecell production

[RAVEN.myst]

Personally I always put an SPP in Akela's Beacon to supply my fleet with Ecells (at later stages of the game)
Production there is so fast you need a freighter dedicated to nonstop runs getting crystals, but with that in place, a very fast Ecell production

You just gave me an idea: when I play as Argon, I often end up sending my freshly-bought OTAS ships from Legend's Home next-door to Akeela's Beacon for their initial jump-fuel (except when I put a Hub link to Legend's Home) - but the NPC stations are soooooooo far from the gates, tucked away in the NE quadrant of this "rather large" sector - building a SPP at the Southern gate would mean those ships could get in there much quicker, immediately after leaving Legend's Home.

[MarvinTheMartian]

in fact, you'll even find that the L variants of ships are more consistently available at shipyards.

I think this might be observer bias
Everything I've heard on this forum suggests that the ship S/M/L variants are random and cannot be influenced.

Note: The availability of the different levels randomly changes, both over time and when loading a game.

Also, the price set in a player owned dock, trading station and PHQ is the selling price and traders will only buy at least 1Cr lower than this, otherwise it's buying and selling at the same price which will have it going round in circles! (it might be the reverse of this but I know it's a 1Cr difference)

As for UTs (Universe Traders using the Mk3 trade SW), I agree, don't mix that with a trading base (EqD or PHQ). I spent a lot of time configuring STs (Sector Traders - restricted UTs) not to steal stock from my player HQ in TC and gave up in favour of centralised CAGs

While we're on the subject of player owned TS and EqD, in TC especially, resist the urge to buy one unless you have a very specific need, they stock a very limited quantity of wares, like the NPC ones, which is another reason the hub is so useful as it holds considerably more. This has improved in AP but still not worth it IMHO - there are other options that cost a lot less.

[RAVEN.myst]

in fact, you'll even find that the L variants of ships are more consistently available at shipyards.

I think this might be observer bias

That's entirely possible - I've seen long periods of L-availability in the late game when nearby EqDs and shield factories are full-up, but as you say, I may well be perceiving a pattern that isn't actually there.

Also, the price set in a player owned dock, trading station and PHQ is the selling price and traders will only buy at least 1Cr lower than this, otherwise it's buying and selling at the same price which will have it going round in circles!

This is the case if you leave the dock open to passing trade - all transactions by docking ships happen at the dock's listed price. However, using CAGs avoids this, as the CAG actively seeks out best prices for both purchases and sales (since you mention using "centralised CAGs", I assume you know this already.)

While we're on the subject of player owned TS and EqD, in TC especially, resist the urge to buy one unless you have a very specific need, they stock a very limited quantity of wares, like the NPC ones, which is another reason the hub is so useful as it holds considerably more. This has improved in AP but still not worth it IMHO - there are other options that cost a lot less.

Very true! Furthermore, in X3TC the player gets the Hub and after that the PHQ as plot developments, so in a sense "free" (though we know how *not free* the Hub really is! heheheh). In X3AP, this is even more the case - the Hub is available much sooner and this time really for free, the PHQ is available a lot sooner too (though it's now more expensive - yet well worth it nonetheless!), and there's also the addition of the Corp HQ, which is functionally identical to EqDs (2 capital ship docks and the same stock level capacities as EqDs, if I'm not mistaken) - so just as you say, unless one has a very specific use for buying a "commercially available model", it's generally not economical to do so...

[RainerPrem]

Hi,

Personally I always put an SPP in Akela's Beacon to supply my fleet with Ecells (at later stages of the game)
Production there is so fast you need a freighter dedicated to nonstop runs getting crystals, but with that in place, a very fast Ecell production

You just gave me an idea: when I play as Argon, I often end up sending my freshly-bought OTAS ships from Legend's Home next-door to Akeela's Beacon for their initial jump-fuel (except when I put a Hub link to Legend's Home) - but the NPC stations are soooooooo far from the gates, tucked away in the NE quadrant of this "rather large" sector - building a SPP at the Southern gate would mean those ships could get in there much quicker, immediately after leaving Legend's Home.

I have a dedicated Superfreighter (6000 or so capacity) full of eCells sitting in the OTAS shipyard, so newly bought Mistrals can directly jump to the next Teladi Dock (or shipyard in AP) and then to Herron's Nebula to get their initial rank. That saves a BIG LOT of time.

cu
Rainer