[X3AP] different weapons on same turret?

[Space100]

Intuitively I always put the same type of weapons on a turret, but I was wondering if there is some sort of compatibility putting different weapons on the same turret. Also in X3AP turrets could automatically change weapons, but this feature does not know if it works well.

[pjknibbs]

If you have different weapons on the same turret then the following applies:

1) So long as you have auto-aim enabled for the turret (it is by default) the AI will automatically adjust the aim of the different guns so they each have the most likely chance to hit the target, so there's no problem there.

2) The turret will open fire as soon as anything comes within range of the longest range weapon fitted to it, so it's best to use weapons that are similar in range or else you'll waste a lot of weapons energy due to the shorter range one firing but having no chance to hit. The only exception are Ion Disruptors, which can bounce off other types of weapons fire and thus go out a lot further than their stated range suggests.

Having said that, if you're flying something with a lot of turrets (like an M7, M1 or M2) I tend to prefer specialising them--for example, on a Shrike I'd put Gauss Cannons on the side turrets for anti-capital work, FAA on the top and bottom for anti-fighter, and something light with a fast rate of fire on the back for anti-missile.

[RAVEN.myst]

As far as the auto-switch feature is concerned: I've been experimenting with it recently, with some mixed results. So far, my tests have been pretty limited (on M3, M3+ and M6/M6+ ships only, not capital ships yet.) Some of the time, I find the feature is quite smart: for example, on a Dragon corvette I had just two guns available for the turret, a PAC and a HEPT. The HEPT would auto-equip first, as it has longer range, but then when the targets moved in closer, if they were small, hard to hit ones such as Xenon Ns, then the gun would auto-switch to the faster, more accurate but shorter-ranged (and lower damage) PAC. This gave good results.

However, other times it was not so smart. For example, in my Kha'ak Corvette, I had both turrets filled with 3x bKE each (the maximum load.) Kha'ak ships can only mount KE weapons, the Corvette can only do aKE (weak) and bKE (medium) - the gKE is a strong capital ship weapon. They are all beam weapons with similar properties. My Corvette has ONLY bKEs, so there are no alternative options - and yet, sometimes, the auto-switch would uninstall 2 of the 3 guns! I can only assume that it's for energy-saving purposes, but disabling the auto-switch and leaving 3 lasers in each turret didn't strain my energy at all, while improving damage output, so the auto-switch there only serves to weaken the configuration, without any actual benefit.

I turned off auto-switch for small ships, and will carry on experimenting on capital ships.


As for mixing weapons: I'm in agreement with what all that pjknibbs has said. It's is VERY rare for me to mix weapons on a turret (in the main frontal array, that's a different story - I almost always have different weapons, assigned to different groups, for specialised uses) - the only exceptions to this are if it's my first capital ship for that playthrough and I can't yet afford proper guns; or if the ship doesn't have the cargo space to accommodate a full load of what I would like (yes, I'm looking at you, Tyr!), and so I full up the extra slots with smaller guns (which is almost a waste to do, anyway); or if there are two similar guns with a slight difference, and I'd like to "overlap" them - an example might be using FAA with CFA in the same turret, or perhaps something like CIG and ISR - but this last example is extremely rare for me to do - usually I just pack each turret with homogeneous guns (it looks neater, too! heheheh)

[ancienthighway]

However, other times it was not so smart. For example, in my Kha'ak Corvette, I had both turrets filled with 3x bKE each (the maximum load.) Kha'ak ships can only mount KE weapons, the Corvette can only do aKE (weak) and bKE (medium) - the gKE is a strong capital ship weapon. They are all beam weapons with similar properties. My Corvette has ONLY bKEs, so there are no alternative options - and yet, sometimes, the auto-switch would uninstall 2 of the 3 guns! I can only assume that it's for energy-saving purposes, but disabling the auto-switch and leaving 3 lasers in each turret didn't strain my energy at all, while improving damage output, so the auto-switch there only serves to weaken the configuration, without any actual benefit.

Were those guns removed during combat or while out of combat? And do you have enough guns to fill all the hardpoints?

MARS will dismount all but one gun on a turret when not in combat, or when the turret is not in use. The autoswitch may be doing the same thing. I tend to be a decide on a layout and don't add extra weapons type of player, so I don't know if MARS will dynamically pick the best weapon for the target or sticks with the best weapon for the turret.

[RAVEN.myst]

Anyhow, to answer your questions: I *noticed* the underequipping out of combat, so I will re-enable and look at it in combat - if it re-equips for combat, it's not a problem, obviously. Thanks for that info

My weapon hardpoints are not quite full - I have 13 b-KEs on that ship, if I find another Kha'ak fighter I can strip 2 of its 3 to fill up my 'vette (another Kha'ak M3 has already contributed its 3) - so my frontal array is Seven of Nine (hehehhe) and my 2 turrets are both full - well, until they get almost-emptied by the turret auto-switch script (which may be acting exactly as you describe MARS does, suggesting the same code has been implemented.) There are no other weapon options - I don't have any a-KEs in my hold, only b-KEs, and I don't carry anything that's incompatible, obviously (except in loot situations, of course.)

I, too, tend to specialise and "hardwire" my weapon loadouts (only occasionally manually switching, if I have interesting xotic toys), but am interested in experimenting with side-array flexibility for capital ships, to perhaps allow them to switch between AC and AF/AM weapons.


EDIT: Ok, so I can confirm that it is, indeed, when the ship is standing down that the turrets get "lightened" (thanks again for pointing that out, Highway), and then they get filled up during action stations. This re-equipping is a bit slow for my liking (takes as long as a few seconds after engagement, sometimes), but I'm willing to live with it while I test it out for longer - the potential gains may warrant it.

[Sirrobert]

As for MARS, it will select its weapons based on the target. It'll put IREs in a capital turret if that's the best gun for the job (you only have IREs and capital guns for some reason, and the target is small and fast)

[JJRSC]

In my commonwealth destroyers (mostly Boreas and Ray) I DO mix cap guns in the turrets... I'll put in half PPC and half IC. I do this to bump up shield dps a little more - but I'm also playing TC, where if a cap ship's shields go down, it's pretty much finished. In AP I'm not sure this would be a very good strategy, given how much stronger hulls are in AP... a ship with this setup would probably spend a good ten minutes gnawing on the hull of its target after the shields went down.

[RAVEN.myst]

In my commonwealth destroyers (mostly Boreas and Ray) I DO mix cap guns in the turrets... I'll put in half PPC and half IC. I do this to bump up shield dps a little more - but I'm also playing TC, where if a cap ship's shields go down, it's pretty much finished. In AP I'm not sure this would be a very good strategy, given how much stronger hulls are in AP... a ship with this setup would probably spend a good ten minutes gnawing on the hull of its target after the shields went down.

It's still viable in X3AP - it's just a matter of adjusting the mix, I would say 2 ICs and 6 PPCs, if you're going to mix (that's a thumb-sucked guesstimate, nothing more - I generally just go brute-force with pure PPC or, in faster ships, sometimes GC up front and PPCs on one or both sides.)

[RAVEN.myst]

OK, quick update: I've been experimenting more with the auto-switch function, and have found that, for the most part, I really like it. It does seem to be at least partially based on the old X2 MARS script (which is a pity never truly made it into X3 - hired gunnery crews, turret behaviour to favour captures, and other aspects made it worth its steep price tag, at least on big ships.)

My most impressive and visually obvious results have been on a Boron M7C Guppy, carrying FAAs, 4 CIGs, 4 HEPTs, and a bunch of PACs. It seems that FAAs only get included if "allow area weapons" is enabled. The switching has been quite impressive, even to the point of sometimes mixing weapons in an effective way (PAC + HEPT on the same turret can result in better streams-of-fire, as the non-synced bolts stagger and interleave, creating a more continuous fire stream). The function has not been mixing CIGs with other guns, which I believe is a good thing.

[Alan Phipps]

Going back to vanilla, there can indeed be some point in turrets having a mixed weapon load-out using different ranges.

Let's say that in a capital turret you have 7 shorter range weapons that are economical with energy and generally more accurate, along with one slightly longer range weapon that is a bit of an energy guzzler and/or may be a bit slow and inaccurate at maximum range. Both types are relatively slow to turn in turrets.

The potential problem as mentioned before is that all weapons may start firing at the longer range limit and so the 7 shorter range weapons could potentially waste energy while the target is still out of range for them.

However, another scenario is that your ship is attacking a distant ship or is being approached from far out by an attacker and so the range to target is steadily closing.

As soon as the longer range turret gun gets in range, the turret starts to turn (slowly) to face the target. Once the turret is aligned, all guns fire. As the range is ever-closing, by the time the turret has aligned and the bullets get out there, the target is by then in range of all guns and all bullets are immediately effective.

Note that the turret started to turn to face the enemy sooner than if all 8 guns were the same shorter range and so the turret starts doing damage earlier in the engagement. Yet this is still potentially more energy-efficient than using all longer range guns.

As an example, where energy conservation may be important in extended and multi-target battles, I may sometimes use one PPC along with 7 Ion Cannon/IBL in some capital turrets just to get the early turning advantage from the heavy PPC along with the efficiency of the shorter range Frigate weapons.

You can find similar situations for corvette and heavy fighter weapon mixes used in corvette turrets.

Of course AP's auto-swapping would probably mess all this up if enabled.