[X3AP] Economy help

[tx34]

After a couple of attempts to get into X3TC I have managed to make some progress in AP thanks to the stock market making the early game less of a grind. However I am still struggling somewhat and have a few questions:

1. CLS/CAG vs ST/UT, it seems that generally the bonus back software is better in terms of ease of use and control, is there much reason to even use a ST/UT any more?

2. If I set a CLS homebase will it use the station account for buying/selling or is there a way to make it use the station account?

3. Do CLS or CAGs need sensor vision to trade or make good decisions, what about ST/UTs?

4. I have a wheat farm and ore mine set up with a CAG to buy, and a CLS set to sell. I have the station set to buy below average and sell above average, and the stations are in sectors which should have demand. However looking at the station profitability graphs shows the profitability constantly dipping into the negatives, what is going wrong here?

5. Will running CLSs buying and selling at average generally result in profit or should the price be offset from the average and by how much, or does it generally depend on the sector economy?

6. If you order a CLS to buy from one of your stations is this the same as a load command?

Any help would be appreciated.

[ancienthighway]

1. CAG, CLS1, CLS2, and Mk3 traders all have different uses.
- CAGs are very effective at buying resources and selling product. They will go for the best price given the limits you set. For example, you set the energy price (resource) to 14. The CAG will buy in priority at prices 12, 13, and 14. IF you set the ore price (product) to 175, it will sell only at 175 or better, with better having priority.
- CLS1 is useful in moving wares between stations, i.e. moving product from one to a station that uses it as a resource. Price for the exchange can be set to whatever you want up to the maximim, to include 0.
- CLS2 is the most flexible, but with stations needed to be declared, for a general trader it's ineffective. Every time the pilot is promoted, you have to go back and define the additional waypoints. I use it to buy cheap wares from NPC stations and feed it to specific stations that need it. For example, buying energy, food, and minerals to feed a weapons producer so I can arm my ships with that weapon.
- Mk3 Traders are should be start and forget about it. I find UTs too often they buy product with a specific consumer in mind, then lose the sell and complain because they have all the product filling their hold. STs seem to work better for me due to the limited range. Even so I use STs very infrequently.

2. You can set whether a homebased trader uses the station account or global account in the Trader Settings.

3. Can't say for certain. I put duplex scanners on all my ships, and add triplex as I think about it.

4. You CAG is constantly going out to buy energy, and is likely paying too much is you are buying at 15. Change buy cost to 13 or 14, although 12 isn't unreasonable. (I use 12 almost always.) If you CLS trader is selling at average+1, you aren't getting enough for your product. It will set out as soon as the ore can be sold for 128, and with luck can sell for that or slightly more. With no luck, an NPC trader made it there first. Then toss in the jump fuel for the CAG and CLS. All adds up to negative profits. Chances are the CLS pilot isn't set up to handle all the consumers in trading range, so you are missing plenty of opportunities. Drop the CLS trader and let the CAG handle resources and product. You will get the best price in the trading range almost every time and profits grow.

5. Trading Posts and Equipment Docks will only buy or sell at average. Meatsteaks Cahoonas are always priced at 72, buy or sell. NPC traders always go into action when the price is average plus or minus 1. If buying average -1, selling average +1. For you to make a trade, you have to beat the competition, so use these same numbers to increase you chances. For you to make a profit, you have to buy the ware at close to minimum and sell for close to maximum. Timsup2nothing has some excellent guides that go in depth on CLS2 trading.

6. Buy/Sell means money is moved from one account to another. Load/Unload has no money exchange.

[Timsup2nothin]

1. CLS/CAG vs ST/UT, it seems that generally the bonus back software is better in terms of ease of use and control, is there much reason to even use a ST/UT any more?

My opinion, not really...since you are asking about trading. A handful of ST/UTs, just turned loose, will generate enough cash flow to support other ways to play the game (setting up a boarding operation, building some manufacturing facilities, whatever) but when it comes to trading they are so hopelessly ineffective compared to other options that they serve no purpose.

2. If I set a CLS homebase will it use the station account for buying/selling or is there a way to make it use the station account?

In trader settings there is an option to pay them from station account or global account. This controls where their salary comes from. Transactions they make will charge or credit to their station account if they have a home base.

3. Do CLS or CAGs need sensor vision to trade or make good decisions, what about ST/UTs?

No. They are automatically aware (through the pilot's guild?) of all stations in any sector that shows on your universe map.

4. I have a wheat farm and ore mine set up with a CAG to buy, and a CLS set to sell. I have the station set to buy below average and sell above average, and the stations are in sectors which should have demand. However looking at the station profitability graphs shows the profitability constantly dipping into the negatives, what is going wrong here?

Hard to say. When you say "a CLS set to sell" I'm not sure what you mean. But in all probability this is an inventory problem. If all the station's credits are being turned into inventory of product and resources it can appear to be not profitable until a sale is made.

5. Will running CLSs buying and selling at average generally result in profit or should the price be offset from the average and by how much, or does it generally depend on the sector economy?

This question has no short answer. See guide in sig.

6. If you order a CLS to buy from one of your stations is this the same as a load command?

No. When it buys from your station there will be a credit transfer from either the homebase (if it has one) or your ship account into the station account where the purchase is made. If you send it to BUY from its own home base then it is just like a load command, but that's the only case.

[tx34]

Thanks ancienthighway, that is helpful.

My opinion, not really...since you are asking about trading. A handful of ST/UTs, just turned loose, will generate enough cash flow to support other ways to play the game (setting up a boarding operation, building some manufacturing facilities, whatever) but when it comes to trading they are so hopelessly ineffective compared to other options that they serve no purpose.

Right, but even for cash flow purposes due to the high upfront cost and training time of ST/UT, it seems the extra thought required to set up a good CLS run results in a much better return on investment.

In trader settings there is an option to pay them from station account or global account. This controls where their salary comes from. Transactions they make will charge or credit to their station account if they have a home base.

Perfect.

No. They are automatically aware (through the pilot's guild?) of all stations in any sector that shows on your universe map.

That is interesting, so the main purpose of satellites is to allow remote shipyard/stock exchange access and hostile notifications?

Hard to say. When you say "a CLS set to sell" I'm not sure what you mean. But in all probability this is an inventory problem. If all the station's credits are being turned into inventory of product and resources it can appear to be not profitable until a sale is made.

So the profitability is the immediate measurement of output/input credit value? Is there a way to figure out 'overall' profitability?
I had the CLS loading at my station and selling elsewhere, but I realized I did not have it home based, would this account for some of the 'loss' since the profits did not end up back in the station account?

This question has no short answer. See guide in sig.

I have read through some of it and it has been helpful. I know to entice npcs to your stations you must at a minimum buy/sell 1 above/bellow average. I imagine this must still be (slightly) profitable due to the markup of processed goods? Is there an easy way to tell the minimum spread to be profitable? Do you have any general price setting advice?
Is it ever worth it to run CLS between npc stations at slim to none margins (eg. buy and sell at average) to keep the economy moving?

No. When it buys from your station there will be a credit transfer from either the homebase (if it has one) or your ship account into the station account where the purchase is made. If you send it to BUY from its own home base then it is just like a load command, but that's the only case.

Ok great, and I assume it will charge/credit based on the station price parameters?

This has cleared up a bunch, thanks!

[Timsup2nothin]

So the profitability is the immediate measurement of output/input credit value? Is there a way to figure out 'overall' profitability?
I had the CLS loading at my station and selling elsewhere, but I realized I did not have it home based, would this account for some of the 'loss' since the profits did not end up back in the station account?

Absolutely. That shows up as a dead loss as far as the station is concerned.

[ancienthighway]

The "loss" will also occur if you manually direct a trader, no matter what the home base is, IIRC.

[Timsup2nothin]

The "loss" will also occur if you manually direct a trader, no matter what the home base is, IIRC.

Yeah. Manual trade runs always charge/credit against the ship account.

[tx34]

Thanks for the help guys.
I found what I was looking for in terms of station profitability from http://x3ap-eng.x3tc.net/x3_albion_prelude_factories/.

[Snafu_X3]

Additionally, a few things that haven't been covered above, for the inexperienced X-player:

1. CLS1 uses a /push/ method, unlike all(?) other scripted traders. This confused me for some time when I first started investigating it(!)..

2. Any ship transaction that involves selling or buying (ie credit transfer) will always default to it's homebase cash account (see below) unless otherwise told (if the ship has no homebase it will use the cash from your player account)

3 Carefully managed STs (once suitably ranked) can be useful in assorted ways, even (if appropriately homebased), if only to keep your HUB's cash account topped up & local NPC stations from disappearing (see below)

4. Trainee (Apprentice) CLS/CAG pilots take no salary. If you're using their abilities to shuffle wares between your own station(s) IS, there's no need to have them 'accept training' unless you want to rank them up: this method can be useful for training purposes if you don't want to define a CLS training script


Footnotes:

I've never found much use for vanilla UTs other than for ranking pilots & gaining JDs in inaccessible or inconvenient areas. ONLY UTs have the ability to gain JDs this way; STs, no matter how high their rank, won't have the capability. Conversely CAG/CLS pilots will NOT automatically gain or use a JD upon attaining the appropriate rank: you'll have to 'manually' transfer the JD to the relevant CAG/CLS ship unless it's already installed, & tell <pilot> to use it (if you haven't already set it in <pilot's> default order script)

STs have the capability to trade with NPCs within a certain range, & won't go beyond that range (except for emergency escape/restocking), so setting up your STs suitably not only keeps them out of danger but allows you to keep potentially useful stations alive (ie not removed by GoD), eg the elusive FAA forges. Again, ST/UTs perform cash transactions using their hiomebase a/c, so not only does setting them as homebased to the HUB (or PHQ or whatever) ensure a steady income trickle, to that station, it also ensures you can find an individual ship fairly easily (use the naming options)

I recommend the updated script for UTs if you're going to use them; it makes them a bit more intelligent & a lot more survivable, while not making them too overpowered except WRT their income (the latter is purely a product of their increased survivability IMO). Personally I'm bored with the easy cashflow of ST/UTs so I rarely use more than 5 UTs & maybe up to 20 STs, the latter mostly to avoid building stations in dangerous or huge areas early- to mid-game while keeping the relevant NPC economy alive

I've never received a clear answer as to whether it's worth ranking STs' pilots above L20 (their max if set to ST); the notes seem to imply Yes, but..

[Honved]

Note that a scanner is not necessary on a ST/LT/UT for trading purposes, but will help them spot enemy ships sooner. Other traders may also benefit from the knowledge, and appear to be less likely to enter a sector where there's known enemy activity.

An ST is limited to the one sector, which is rarely all that useful, but at Level 6 they can be restarted with a RANGE of 1 (+1 for every 2 additional levels). This allows you to place them very specifically in a location, and limit how far they can travel. Not only does that force them to support a specific area, but prevents them from straying into unsafe sectors. With a range >0, they are sometimes called "Local Traders".

I often use a Local Trader in Argon Prime with Range=3 to cover the entire Argon home vicinity, without ever straying into Pirate space. If I'm placing another couple of traders for the region, I'll train them up in Ore Belt or Energy Circle, then restart them with Range = 2 in Herron's Nebula and Home of Light, so they provide additional coverage to the northern and southern halves of the region without clustering in one area. A LT can take advantage of a wide range of opportunities, where more task-specific traders will ignore some of those potential situations. Sector and Local traders are very good for supporting the local NPC economy, if you want to work WITH the economy instead of against it. That kicks the NPC stations into full production, and provides a greater volume of trade opportunities. You often make less per trader, but make it up in greater total trade volume in the area.

UTs, by restarting a ST/LT at or after level 7, are better for securing longer-range trades of high-value items. They're high risk, high reward while they last, but expect to lose them eventually WHEN (not "if") they stray into Xenon or Pirate sectors and get vaporized by something big and nasty before they can jump clear. I use about 1 UT for every 10 ST/LT, and generally have about as many CAGs as those, plus a few CLS, yet my UT losses far exceed losses of all of the others combined.

I only use CLS for specific repetitive trade runs, although I'm sure that they'd be far more useful if I'd spend the time to learn more about them.

CAGs are primarily useful for tending a specific factory or complex of yours, initially gathering needed resources and eventually selling finished goods for best price. A station with a CAG will typically run far more profitably than by relying on NPC traffic, because the CAG will buy resources at the lowest available price, rather than average price or slightly above, and sell products for the highest available price, instead of average -1. This can be highly effective when working WITH the local economy, rather than against it.

Note that a closed loop factory only generates profit from sale of the final product. An open loop system with experienced CAG traders at each stage can make money on every intermediate step along the way, in addition to the final product. Granted, it does take a larger initial investment in ships, partly offset by not having to buy a lot of Complex Construction Kits.

[roundowl]

On topic of X3 Economy: Given enough time, can the game stabilize supply and demand in the universe by itself? If not, what types of cargo it will not build?

[ancienthighway]

I don't think the issue is so much one of what isn't being built, but are the wares being built being distributed properly. Much of what doesn't appear to be working can be fixed by the player adding transports. The sooner you start, the better. If you wait to long the GoD may start deleting needed statons which may or not be a good thing for the player.

[roundowl]

So it can build wanted stations and destroy unserviced stations. Will it build AI ships in larger quantities?

(BTW, where I can read about how AI ships are created? Google didn't help.)

[The Q]

Will it build AI ships in larger quantities?

No, it won't. The Jobs engine is responsible for that.

(BTW, where I can read about how AI ships are created? Google didn't help.)

The scripts and modding forum is usually the best place to learn about technical ("behind the scenes") stuff.